Ralph Davis Clutch Gone Wrong

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yogrIDKAQR0

I feel sorry for the blind one. Props to him for posting this. He really does give you the good, bad, and the ugly of snake breeding in his videos.

That sucks! Poor little fella... :(

do those snakes have to be put to sleep? I was wondering if they would have feeding problems with mouth deformites like that

Why is anyone surprised that Mother x Son has the potential to produce deformities?
He's inbreeding.

They should all be culled to prevent the deformities from being spread into the BP gene pool, no question...However...I know Ralph sells these animals locally which disgusts me.

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Originally Posted by TripleMoonsExotic

Why is anyone surprised that Mother x Son has the potential to produce deformities?
He's inbreeding.

They should all be culled to prevent the deformities from being spread into the BP gene pool, no question...However...I know Ralph sells these animals locally which disgusts me.

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Huh? :confused:

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Originally Posted by TripleMoonsExotic

Why is anyone surprised that Mother x Son has the potential to produce deformities?
He's inbreeding.

They should all be culled to prevent the deformities from being spread into the BP gene pool, no question...However...I know Ralph sells these animals locally which disgusts me.

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If they're able to eat, drink, poo, shed...I see no problem in rehoming (I'm not sure about selling) them, provided they aren't bred further. How do you know he sells them? And what happens to them after that?

This applies to those that aren't so deformed that they are probably miserable...

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Originally Posted by TripleMoonsExotic

Why is anyone surprised that Mother x Son has the potential to produce deformities?
He's inbreeding.

They should all be culled to prevent the deformities from being spread into the BP gene pool, no question...However...I know Ralph sells these animals locally which disgusts me.

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WHAT are you talking about????????????? :weirdface

Why do breeders do this?

If certain morphs and what not have a tendency of deformities then why not stop breeding those particular ones?

It's like asking for trouble IMO.

Why not stop attempting to breed them instead of having deformed snakes being born and then having to either kill them or let them die on their own?

It just doesn't seem right to me.

If you are trying to have a child and the first 3-4 babies come out with disabilities or deformities, are you going to keep trying?

Maybe someone could make me look at it differently but I don't know.

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Originally Posted by sho220

If they're able to eat, drink, poo, shed...I see no problem in rehoming (I'm not sure about selling) them, provided they aren't bred further.

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The reason why is because their is no guarantee that the new owner will not breed the snake...Thus spreading that crap into the gene pool. It's not different then those schmucks selling the boa constrictors and RESs with missing eyes.

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Originally Posted by sho220

How do you know he sells them? And what happens to them after that?

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Because I have a friend that purchased one of his deformed females (she's missing half her bottom jaw) 2nd hand from whom he sells them to. He sells the deformed ones that function alright to a guy in Pennsylvania.

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Originally Posted by starmom

WHAT are you talking about?????????????

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What exactly aren't you understanding? He says right in the video that it's from breeding mother to son. While he doesn't go into detail on how far back the inbreeding has been done, an f1 Mother x Son generally won't produce deformities. It's when you do it a lot that you get nasties like that.

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Originally Posted by NFS

Why do breeders do this?

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Money. Plain and simple. MONEY. :(

So I take it you're not an RDR fan. :D

It's definitely something to consider, but you're giving us info from a friend who got something second hand from someone else who may have gotten the animal from RDR. How does your friend know the animal was ultimately from RDR? Did the seller just voluntarily give out the info that he was re-selling deformed animals that a big time breeder was selling?

poor lil' fellas. the one with the short lip was kinda cutes :)

so ppl are against breeding son to mother ?? for chance of deformities ?? isn't nerd big with that isnt that the best way to figure out geneS????? maybe im lost but it seems like theres complaining about the thing that gives use some of the best morphs.. idk maybe im off

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Originally Posted by sho220

So I take it you're not an RDR fan. :D

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Actually, I can appreciate what he's done for BPs at the same time not agree with his breeding/selling/culling methods. RDR is pretty darn close to me, and after seeing his deformed offspring in the general public (and haven't you heard the issues with deformities with RDR Caramel Albino projects? The man uses kinked animals in that project!), I won't spend a dime with him on principle.

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Originally Posted by sho220

It's definitely something to consider, but you're giving us info from a friend who got something second hand from someone else who may have gotten the animal from RDR. How does your friend know the animal was ultimately from RDR? Did the seller just voluntarily give out the info that he was re-selling deformed animals that a big time breeder was selling?

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No question the snake in question came from RDR (and he in fact has others), the seller wouldn't lie about something as silly as that. The seller is a respected member of the local herp industry, he just doesn't do the internet game.

I of course have no reason to lie about the situation, nor have I been known to lie about anything. You can think what you want, I believe my sources (and this video shows that he has deformity issues in his colonies).

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Originally Posted by spaztheweird1

so ppl are against breeding son to mother ?? for chance of deformities ?? isn't nerd big with that isnt that the best way to figure out geneS????? maybe im lost but it seems like theres complaining about the thing that gives use some of the best morphs.. idk maybe im off

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Yeah, you're not getting it. A single Mother x Son or Father x Daughter f1 pairing would rarely produce deformities (like those shown in this video), if at all. What will produce deformities is if you keep doing it generation after generation...Or take ones with deformities and breed them, further spreading the defects.

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Originally Posted by TripleMoonsExotic

Money. Plain and simple. MONEY. :(

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That's pretty effin sad if you ask me.

Guess this is why there is Karma.

I guess what I'm not understanding is just about everything you're asserting. It seems as though you are putting out some hearsay and asking that it be believed without any communication from Ralph.

I'm also having a difficult time understanding why you believe that breeding back to produce an F1 is anything that is bad or frowned upon or dangerous.

You also seem to imply that this clutch came from a long line of 'inbreeding'. Again, Ralph is not here to speak to this, and you do not say that you have spoken to him, and so I think that you are merely creating drama.

Most people understand that albinos carry intrinsic weaknesses and one of those weaknesses are eye problems. Have you bred your albino boa yet? Have you noticed slugs, stillborn's and eye problems? Again, these issues seem to be in the albino line and not a result of breeding back to mother/father.

I have a lot of respect for Ralph for disclosing the successes as well as failures of his clutches. I don't believe that it permits you to take cheap shots (in the form of assumptions, accusations, etc.) without having first spoken with him to gather accurate information and without letting him know that you are casting aspersions and thereby allowing him to respond.

I understand that you have some very strong opinions; but that's just all they are- opinions. Why not call Ralph and get the 'straight scoop'? It's a lot healthier than choosing to be angry ;)

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Originally Posted by TripleMoonsExotic

Money. Plain and simple. MONEY. :(

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So your saying Ralph is in this hobby for the money?

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Originally Posted by starmom

I guess what I'm not understanding is just about everything you're asserting. It seems as though you are putting out some hearsay and asking that it be believed without any communication from Ralph.

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I didn't ask to be believe about anything. I posted my opinion and that's that. Squeezing your eyes shut and covering your ears won't make things go away. ;)

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Originally Posted by starmom

I'm also having a difficult time understanding why you believe that breeding back to produce an F1 is anything that is bad or frowned upon or dangerous.

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I never said that. Don't have any idea where you got that from.

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Originally Posted by starmom

Most people understand that albinos carry intrinsic weaknesses and one of those weaknesses are eye problems. Have you bred your albino boa yet? Have you noticed slugs, stillborn's and eye problems? Again, these issues seem to be in the albino line and not a result of breeding back to mother/father.

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Nope. ;) But we're not talking about Albino Boas (outside my mention that people are selling the eyeless Boas and RESs and in my opinion they should be culled).

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Originally Posted by starmom

I have a lot of respect for Ralph for disclosing the successes as well as failures of his clutches. I don't believe that it permits you to take cheap shots (in the form of assumptions, accusations, etc.) without having first spoken with him to gather accurate information and without letting him know that you are casting aspersions and thereby allowing him to respond.

I understand that you have some very strong opinions; but that's just all they are- opinions. Why not call Ralph and get the 'straight scoop'? It's a lot healthier than choosing to be angry ;)

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I'm not angry, nor can anything I say be considered "cheap shots" because I would tell him to his face I don't agree with his breeding/selling/culling methods. Read my posts. I don't think he should be idolized over it or patted on the back for posting a video showing the deformities that he created when they could have been prevented.

And get real. Do you think I'm the only one who said such things about RDR? You're delusional if you think so. ;)

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Originally Posted by ShawnT

So your saying Ralph is in this hobby for the money?

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lol

You guys realize that breeding offspring back to the parents is standard practice across all human bred animals right?

Dogs. Cats. Birds. All of the varieties come from inbreeding to get the desired trait.

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Originally Posted by ShawnT

So your saying Ralph is in this hobby for the money?

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At his stage in the game, I don't think it's considered just a hobby. ;)

What I am saying is that if anyone that sells deformed offspring is only in it for the money...and I do not agree with that. I think it's wrong to sell deformed offspring, and because you can't guarantee that the buyer isn't going to breed it (or sell it to someone else who will breed it), how can you ethically let that animal live when most breeders goal is to "better" the species? On a more "emotional" note, how do you know without a doubt that animal is not suffering in some way due to its deformity?

I had an entire clutch of Lavender Motley cornsnakes hatch out kinked last year. I culled them all. It sucks, but it's something a responsible breeder has to face sooner or later.

Culling is killing but how is it done?

First time I heard of that term.

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Originally Posted by N4S

Culling is killing but how is it done?

First time I heard of that term.

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Freeze them.

People assume snakes are like people, where if you have a child with a mother/son relationship it causes deformities. It is NOT the same thing with snakes. They have a completely different gene pool and some traits tend to bring out deformities but obviously he's learned and is going to apply that knowledge in the future. He's not purposely trying to create deformed snakes.

Also, I really don't think Ralph is in it for the money. I've watch a LOT of his videos and he shares his compassion with his family and children as well as his friends. He REALLY seems to care about the animals, I've never heard him talk about money or say 'wow these snakes will make me a good buck' but rather 'these animals are beautiful and magnificent'.

anyone that doubts rdr is crazy. you know you would all do the same if you were a big time breeder. also how do you expect him to get new snakes out there if hes not inbreeding. take plattys for example. if they wouldnt have inbred there wouldnt be close to as many lessers out for people to be buying a breeding.

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Originally Posted by TripleMoonsExotic

I think it's wrong to sell deformed offspring, and because you can't guarantee that the buyer isn't going to breed it (or sell it to someone else who will breed it), how can you ethically let that animal live when most breeders goal is to "better" the species?

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I'm going to have to agree with you on this bit.

However, I don't think its wrong if you want to keep a deformed snake because you feel it has a shot at a pretty normal life. I do think that if you make that choice, you should never let that animal leave your collection.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

People assume snakes are like people, where if you have a child with a mother/son relationship it causes deformities.

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I'm not talking about just one or two generations. I'm talking about MULTIPLE generations of inbreeding and breeding of deformed offspring.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

However, I don't think its wrong if you want to keep a deformed snake because you feel it has a shot at a pretty normal life. I do think that if you make that choice, you should never let that animal leave your collection.

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I agree...But how many of those deformed snakes that are not culled because that's what the breeder decided do you think still ends up in public hands?

In my example with the Lav Mots, I couldn't keep an entire clutch of kinked Cornsnakes. :weirdface Could you imagine that? 15-20 kinked Cornsnakes that you can't breed or sell. That's a lot of mouths to feed! :oops:

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Originally Posted by andwhy6

you know you would all do the same if you were a big time breeder. also how do you expect him to get new snakes out there if hes not inbreeding. take plattys for example. if they wouldnt have inbred there wouldnt be close to as many lessers out for people to be buying a breeding.

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No, I wouldn't. Getting more morphs into public hands is no excuse to weaken genetics by doing generation upon generation upon generation of inbreeding. THAT is greed.

You brag you'll say this crap to his face. Then why don't you go post your feelings at Ralph's house? That way he'd at least be able to defend himself.

I don't think deformed animals should be bred further or sold out, they should be culled as soon as you see the deformity. Keep the gene pool clean ;)

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Originally Posted by grunt_11b

You brag you'll say this crap to his face. Then why don't you go post your feelings at Ralph's house? That way he'd at least be able to defend himself.

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Bragging? I'm not bragging.
Anyone that knows me knows I have zero problems saying anything to anyone.

If this is the case then I recommend you take your hearsay and innuendo and implications to Ralph and/or his forum. He'll share with you what the facts are and your drama will cease.

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Originally Posted by Koiscale451

I don't think deformed animals should be bred further or sold out, they should be culled as soon as you see the deformity. Keep the gene pool clean ;)

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Imperfect animals are not necessarily caused by genetics. There are any numbers of variables that can lead to any number of imperfections, however slight.

At least he shows his failures and successes. I can't think of ONE other breeder that puts his business out there.

He is doing a great thing sharing his experience with everyone via youtube.

Thank you Ralph, for showing the good, the bad and the ugly.

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

You guys realize that breeding offspring back to the parents is standard practice across all human bred animals right?

Dogs. Cats. Birds. All of the varieties come from inbreeding to get the desired trait.

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Yep you are correct it is called backcrossing.

Sure inbreeding is a possible cause that should be looked into. By posting these results and mentioning the other bad clutch from this project Ralph is providing the sort of info that can help get to the bottom of how to avoid this situation. However, I'm not at all convinced inbreeding is for sure the cause.

Last year I loaned a big normal female out to breed with a spider (probably the most outbred line on the planet) and we had a pretty messed up clutch including lots of missing eyes and short lower jaws. Because the animals where not related I figured the cause was environmental. In our case it was a 13 egg clutch and I was wondering if it generated too much heat or needed more oxygen than smaller clutches hatched ok in the same tight containers. Because Ralph took the time to post this video I now know the same sort of deformities can happen to a much smaller clutch under his considerable incubation experience so I'm now looking in other directions. Could it be temps the mother was exposed to pre lay? Rare molds?

I think the corn snake clutch with such a high reported percentage of problems tends to indicate that case is NOT genetic but some common environmental factor. Most serious deformities are recessive or spontaneous because of the high selection rate against a life threatening dominant mutation. Sounds like you got well over 25% kinks so unless it was some sort of genetic compatibility issue between those parents I’m betting some freak environmental factor. Figuring out what would be a great service to the herp community. Have you ever breed the same pair again and if so what where those results?

Whether to take the chance of a genetic cause or euthanize is a personal decision. You also have to factor in the animals quality of life. In my case I sure didn't think genetics was likely so sent a spider with one small eye and two of its normal colored but one eyed sisters to a friend (for free) who expressed an interest. Unfortunately he reported that they didn't make it so perhaps there deformities where more than cosmetic and my hope that they could have near normal lives was overly optimistic.

With the caramels I also have to thank Ralph for initially bringing the issue to the public eye (years after the start of the caramel market) and continuing to promote discussion through his videos. From my understanding, kinking is very common in caramels so the only question is if you destroy the animals or not (and also if you choose to even work with them in the first place). I don't have any more respect for someone who brushes the issue under the table and destroys their kinks than for someone who documents the issue. At this point I think it's likely that a tendency to kink is part of the caramel mutation just like the color and not something that can be selectively bred out. Through frank discussion and sharing of information though we might just find an environmental variable to explain why some caramels aren't kinked and eventually overcome this problem.

Someone mentioned lesser inbreeding. Being a co dominant I suspect lesser in general are very outbred. Lots of lesser males have been bred to lots of different big normal females that came into lots of different collections from imports over a range of years. I also don't think RDR and his partners on this project have been working on the albino granite project long enough to be more than one or at most two generations of inbreeding (probably just one). Sure there could be a bad gene in there causing the deformities and if so it should be eliminated but with my experience with the same deformities I just can't say for sure inbreeding has anything to do with this problem or even that it's genetic and that the offspring shouldn't be bred. I kept an undeformed spider from my outbred nightmare clutch and she is doing well and I intend to breed her eventually.

Great post Randy...I admire the disclosure by Ralph Davis. I also am not convinced that it is due to inbreeding or multiple generations of inbreeding (sometimes called introgression). I'm not even sure there were multiple generations of inbreeding......How do we know that RD did that? Seems like hearsay to me.

Also until you experiment a little you wont know if its genetic or not.....Furthermore, genetic predispositions can often be overcome by manipulating a key envirnomental variable or two.

Deformities are a part of life and to get to the bottom of biological puzzles sometimes there are some causalities. Breeders of every animal "experiment" and as mentioned before have to deal with the good, the bad, and the ugly and unlucky!

It seems like there is this overinflated fear of "polluting the gene pool". The gene pool of BPs is large and I dont think people would continually buy and sell animals generation after generation with deformities. The market is simply too large for BPs.

Bravo to Randy and Mendels! Very well said, both of you.

Ralph himself would have to confirm, but I believe that project of his is too new to have 'multiple generations of inbreeding' as a factor. Sometimes Stuff happens. Period. It could be genetic, or it could just be a fluke. You can never assume or you won't ever get to the bottom of the problem and that won't help anyone.

Severe deformities, be they genetic or not, should be put down. But the lesser stuff can be given a chance. Like it has been said, the gene pool is pretty big for BPs, and as long as the problems aren't deliberately being created or spread (gods forbid anyone would do that) it's ok to experiment every now and then. That's how we learn. As long as the animal is progressing and doing things it should be doing, then all engines ahead full. :)

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Originally Posted by starmom

He'll share with you what the facts are and your drama will cease.

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Drama? Get real. Posting an opinion is drama? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I think the corn snake clutch with such a high reported percentage of problems tends to indicate that case is NOT genetic but some common environmental factor. Most serious deformities are recessive or spontaneous because of the high selection rate against a life threatening dominant mutation. Sounds like you got well over 25% kinks so unless it was some sort of genetic compatibility issue between those parents I’m betting some freak environmental factor. Figuring out what would be a great service to the herp community. Have you ever breed the same pair again and if so what where those results?

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Yes, I did this past year. One hatched kinked, 2 died in egg kinked (I don't agree with cutting eggs either - they can't make it out on their own, they weren't meant to live)...BUT the other 8 turned out great. What's interesting is the parents are in no way related...They were purchased from opposites sides of the country from different lines. If it was environmental, I would imagine the other clutches would have shown kinking...But only one other did, the clutch sired by the same male to a different female...Only one was severely kinked.

Whether these deformities are genetic or not (how will you 100% determine that it is not genetic unless you breed them or have obvious environmental issues, like heat spikes for example), they should be culled and not sold.

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Originally Posted by Argentra

Severe deformities, be they genetic or not, should be put down. But the lesser stuff can be given a chance.

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I agree...But missing eyes and sections of a jaw is a severe deformity in my opinion. A slightly kinked spine (as long as the animal can still move, feed and defecate fine) could live a "happy" life as a pet, if you could find someone trustworthy enough to actually not breed or sell the animal. Problem is, how can you 100% guarantee that person is going to follow your request unless you're personal friends with them.

So the same corn snake pair produced some kinks in two different years (one year high percentage, another year lower) and other clutches incubated under the same conditions where fine? Then you may well have something genetic. If it where just one year I would think it could be some fluke like the pre lay temps in the female's cage. Hard to explain how the genetics might work. Maybe a recessive gene that they both happened to have and just very unlucky the first year to get a higher than 25% rate. Or maybe there could be some incompatibility between the two, something like an rh factor difference in humans.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

So the same corn snake pair produced some kinks in two different years (one year high percentage, another year lower) and other clutches incubated under the same conditions where fine? Then you may well have something genetic. If it where just one year I would think it could be some fluke like the pre lay temps in the female's cage. Hard to explain how the genetics might work. Maybe a recessive gene that they both happened to have and just very unlucky the first year to get a higher than 25% rate. Or maybe there could be some incompatibility between the two, something like an rh factor difference in humans.

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Yes, I've only had issues with offspring produced from the Lavender Motley male. Not only from the same pair two years in a row, but also from another female this year who is neither Lavender or Motley (she's a Blizzard - produced a perfect clutch in 2007 with another male) that produced a grossly kinked/fused hatchling.

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Originally Posted by TripleMoonsExotic

Why is anyone surprised that Mother x Son has the potential to produce deformities?
He's inbreeding.

They should all be culled to prevent the deformities from being spread into the BP gene pool, no question...However...I know Ralph sells these animals locally which disgusts me.

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Please point out how many cases of deformities occur when breeding mother to son, daughter to father, or even brother to sister. 'Inbreeding' as you call it happens very often with NO deformities. This stuff happens on its own from time to time. Even from two snakes with no relations. Reptiles 'inbreeding' and mammals 'inbreeding' are two pretty different things. As with mammals there are very many cases of deformities. Reptiles do NOT have the same genes as mammals.

Many morphs have been produced from inbreeding. Recessives and co-doms for example.

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Originally Posted by TripleMoonsExotic

Money. Plain and simple. MONEY. :(

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Money? Really? You mean it can't be a hobby? Something he enjoys very much. I suppose he doesn't have enough money despite owning his own construction company.

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Originally Posted by N4S

lol

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LMFAO!!!!
:weirdface


Seriously, what's so funny about him asking a question?

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Ralph is a GREAT guy who LOVES his snakes more then anyone I have ever met before. Yeah you take a chance at getting any kind of problem with ANY KIND of breeding if it be inbreeding or not. Every breeder of any species will have something like this happen to them down the road at some point. I'm glad Ralph showed this because it does need to be out there for people to see that breeding any kind of animal for a hobby isn't all butterflies, rainbows, candy, and smiles. I've bought him him before and I will buy from him again. His animals are top notch. Sometimes things happen and we can't do anything about it.

I don't know Ralph personally and don't always agree with everything he writes but have seen enough over the years to have no doubt that he cares for animals. Among people concerned for animal welfare legitimate differences of opinions can be had concerning if it's best for the morph or even the individual animal to put down defects.

Many things are genetic but I wouldn't automatically assume a genetic cause for every defect. If it's not genetic and separate from the desired mutation then culling for the sake of the morph goes out the window and the next most important question is regarding the animal's quality of life.

From the pure money standpoint the best thing to do would have been to put the deformities down and never mention them to help keep the public ignorant of any potential issue. By posting info about the issue he opens up questions about whichever morph in general and his animals in particular. In the long run I think discussing deformities in public will help us find the solution to reduce the numbers of defects. I believe sharing this information is even more evidence of concern for the animals over concern for money.