I don't like ad's like this

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Pets & Pet Services / Dogs (Adult) [July 15, 08]
We are looking for female pomeranians, yorkies, and maltese. Must not be altered, be in good health, on the smaller side, for small family breeding program. Price negotiable depending on quality, size and color. Must be at least 10 months old.
Call 989-715-4460

Price:$1.00
County: Saginaw

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:mad: I'm pretty sure I have a good idea what they are planning on doing.

These are all from my local classifieds... Since when are MUTTS "Designer"?
How outrageous, I'll go to the pound and adopt a dog.

CHIHSHUND -$300
SCHNOODLE Puppies- $400-$500
PUGGLE- $280.OO
LABERNARD PUPPIES!
CHORKIE PUPS- $350.00
PUGGLES ARE HERE! "one of the first great mixed breeds." (:rolleyes:)-400.00
Shinese Female Puppy $350.00 Firm
:cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r: A POO PUPPIES $350.00 FIRM
(lolz, it was censored)
Chiweenies Chihuahua and minnie Dachsund will be ready to leave home on august 8th 3 females and one male. Females are 350.00 male is 325.00.

Lhasa Apso/Bichon Puppies-$375.00 and 2 females $400.00
Malti-poo puppies- $550. Males $500.
Mal-Shih- 550. Males $500.
Teacup YorkieChi puppies are HERE!!! (Moms are pure AKC yorkies ) - 500-$600

The great thing is those prices are actually low compared to "high end" "designer" breeds.

is it any different that breeding snakes?

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Originally Posted by 420boa

is it any different that breeding snakes?

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The very fact that you felt the need to ask this question speaks volumes not only about your intelligence and your diligent search for it, but that your morals and ethics may well be, at the least, underdeveloped if not missing all together.

Play nice. :taz:

There were a myriad other ways you could have responded to that. Wouldn't it have been better to explain nicely and end up with all readers being more educated about the subject and all its ramifications?


dr del

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Originally Posted by wilomn

The very fact that you felt the need to ask this question speaks volumes not only about your intelligence and your diligent search for it, but that your morals and ethics may well be, at the least, underdeveloped if not missing all together.

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Wow.

Well, I don't know anything about dogs. That said, I know that we put different snakes morphs together all the time trying to create new morphs. When someone creates a new morph, they are usually praised.

What is the difference with dogs? Why can't different breeds be mixed if the result is a new type of dog that someone wants for whatever reason? Isn't this how a lot of the different breeds came about in the first place???

Wilomn, I am guess this is what his question meant. Your knee-jerk reaction insulting someone for asking a simple question speaks volumes about your character. If there is a reason this shouldn't be done, why don't you explain. There are plenty here, including myself, that are not familiar with why there is something wrong with this. Quit acting like a bully, it just doesn't work for you.

I think the difference with snake morph and "designer" dogs is the huge problem of overpopulation and overcrowding at local shelters and rescues. These "designer" dogs are being purposely bred to be mutts and people are charging hundreds for these glorified mixed breeds. I see mixed dogs all the time get looked over at rescues and shelters because they are just that...mixed breeds. People like purebreds and now..."designer" dogs. Its one thing to breed a new morph of ball python because it is that, a new morph of snake that is now available. Its another to breed for a "puggle" and sell them for hundreds of dollars when there are probably hundreds of "puggles" in shelters across the country destined to be put to sleep because they are only mixed breeds and can't be guaranteed "puggles". Sorry, I have a huge issue with people breeding "designer" dogs.

I would think mixing diff breeds of dogs is alot like mixing a blood python and ball python or a hogg island boa with a columbian etc. Some people do it, but many will frown on it. Mixing diff morphs of ball pythons is more like mixing a black and a chocolate lab in my opinion...

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Originally Posted by Corrupter

I would think mixing diff breeds of dogs is alot like mixing a blood python and ball python or a hogg island boa with a columbian etc. Some people do it, but many will frown on it. Mixing diff morphs of ball pythons is more like mixing a black and a chocolate lab in my opinion...

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That's the exact comparison I was gonna make! :D

Mixing a borneo and a ball is mixing species. Mixing a pug and a poodle is mixing "morphs" of one species(the dog).
There's no real difference genetically in making a "puggle" than making a "bumblebee", since both mix seperate distinctly bred lines.
The REAL LIFE difference is in breeding dogs when many dogs are being put to sleep in shelters. But then you get.. why breed ANY dogs? It's a large can o worms to breed any dog.. whether purebred or not. Why not restrict breeding to only the very prime healthiest stock of purebred AKC breeds? Well.. because not all breeds are recognized by AKC. Some people prefer non-purebreds thinking purebreds are all inbred. Some like this.. some like that.
If someone breeds a litter of pups, correctly cares for parents and pups, and sells them into a good home, then I see no moral difference to that, than in a purebred breeder doing the same. There are many purebreds in shelters too!
That said, the ad is "clearly to me" for a mill type organization, since a family should not need that many dogs that they are advertising for, nor that many different breeds.
Why not charge big bucks for "mutts"? If someone will pay it, then charge it. Maybe that mutt will have more value in their eyes if they pay a big price. The issue is normally that people then try to breed THEIR dogs.. thinking they will make big money.. then they skimp on the care of the animals.. or skimp on the checking out the buyers...
Well.. another long ramble.
The big difference to me is that snakes are solitary by nature, and prefer to not have contact and socialization for the most part. Dogs are more needy, needing care and exercise and attention and affection and training. Can you keep 50 dogs for breeding and give ALL of them that? Now.. can you keep 50 snakes and give them what they need? Probaly so.
Unless you walk your snakes with that ultra cool snake walker of course...

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Mixing a borneo and a ball is mixing species. Mixing a pug and a poodle is mixing "morphs" of one species(the dog).
There's no real difference genetically in making a "puggle" than making a "bumblebee", since both mix seperate distinctly bred lines.
The REAL LIFE difference is in breeding dogs when many dogs are being put to sleep in shelters. But then you get.. why breed ANY dogs? It's a large can o worms to breed any dog.. whether purebred or not. Why not restrict breeding to only the very prime healthiest stock of purebred AKC breeds? Well.. because not all breeds are recognized by AKC. Some people prefer non-purebreds thinking purebreds are all inbred. Some like this.. some like that.
If someone breeds a litter of pups, correctly cares for parents and pups, and sells them into a good home, then I see no moral difference to that, than in a purebred breeder doing the same. There are many purebreds in shelters too!
That said, the ad is "clearly to me" for a mill type organization, since a family should not need that many dogs that they are advertising for, nor that many different breeds.
Why not charge big bucks for "mutts"? If someone will pay it, then charge it. Maybe that mutt will have more value in their eyes if they pay a big price. The issue is normally that people then try to breed THEIR dogs.. thinking they will make big money.. then they skimp on the care of the animals.. or skimp on the checking out the buyers...
Well.. another long ramble.
The big difference to me is that snakes are solitary by nature, and prefer to not have contact and socialization for the most part. Dogs are more needy, needing care and exercise and attention and affection and training. Can you keep 50 dogs for breeding and give ALL of them that? Now.. can you keep 50 snakes and give them what they need? Probaly so.
Unless you walk your snakes with that ultra cool snake walker of course...

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Breeding 2 different kinds of dogs is not like breeding 2 different kinds of ball pythons. With 2 diff morphs of ball pythons, you have to remember that the only main differences are the colors and pattern of the snake. There arent any physical differences like size and shape of the animal. With dogs, they are all different sizes and shapes. In some cases it isnt even safe to breed 2 dogs together, or even physically possible (imagine a male great dane and a female chuhuahua for example) Even though some consider all dogs the same species, they have evolved to so many different breeds that it doesnt make sense to say a dog is a dog and all can/should be mixed. Would you say the same about snakes? Is a snake a snake? Going even more specific, is a python a python? Of course you can get diff kinds of pythons to breed just like you can get different kinds of dogs to breed but why would you want to mix them together when it is recognized by most serious breeders/owners as a mutt?

Dog is a species. Ball python is a species. I was not talking about the physical drawbacks in picking two extremes. Snakes is not a species.
Most dog breeds started as mutts, that were healthy and had characteristics that someone valued, and bred into a "breed" that bred true, throwing only litters of pups that grew into adults resembling the parents.
The difference of todays reality is that people who MADE breeds, were interested in the health and use of the dog they were trying to create. If the person doing the breeding has the health and use of the dog in mind, then a mixed breed(i.e. labradoodle) can become it's own breed, with good health and distinct genetic characteristics. There are lines of labradoodles that are distinct.. but too many other "labradoodles" that are anything from poodle looking to lab looking to lsasa apso looking... so there is not established breed of labradoodle.
If you were breeding caramel ball pythons without regard to kinking or health.. then you'd be as bad as someone breeding puggles with lousy knees and allergies.. in my opinion.

hey wilolm eat one

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Originally Posted by wilomn

The very fact that you felt the need to ask this question speaks volumes not only about your intelligence and your diligent search for it, but that your morals and ethics may well be, at the least, underdeveloped if not missing all together.

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Originally Posted by 420boa

hey wilolm eat one

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This just further proves Wes's comment.

Connie, have you talked to your local SPCA about the add? They might be able to do something.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Dog is a species. Ball python is a species. I was not talking about the physical drawbacks in picking two extremes. Snakes is not a species.
Most dog breeds started as mutts, that were healthy and had characteristics that someone valued, and bred into a "breed" that bred true, throwing only litters of pups that grew into adults resembling the parents.
The difference of todays reality is that people who MADE breeds, were interested in the health and use of the dog they were trying to create. If the person doing the breeding has the health and use of the dog in mind, then a mixed breed(i.e. labradoodle) can become it's own breed, with good health and distinct genetic characteristics. There are lines of labradoodles that are distinct.. but too many other "labradoodles" that are anything from poodle looking to lab looking to lsasa apso looking... so there is not established breed of labradoodle.
If you were breeding caramel ball pythons without regard to kinking or health.. then you'd be as bad as someone breeding puggles with lousy knees and allergies.. in my opinion.

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If you think mixing species of dogs is the same with breeding different morphs of Ball Pythons....you need to leave.

I cannot begin to describe how assinine this statement sounds. A poodle bred to a great dane, WILL NEVER be the same as a bumblebee or whatever was quoted. The fact that you even think that is quite scary.

There are over 800 different breeds of dogs, all of which are completely different in the genetic make up, except for the fact that they are in fact, DOGS.

How many morphs of ball pythons that you know of are physically different from the other, not color, but shape/size........0. you breed to ball pythons together, they are still two ball pythons. You breed two dogs together, they may be "dogs" but with the genetic variations of "dog" they are not the same species, but Sub-species.

I really cannot believe that you actually typed this. It may be your opinion, but when opinions involve facts......are they really opinions?

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Originally Posted by 420boa

hey wilolm eat one

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mmmmmmm whats he having? Im hungry....

The difference between dogs and balls is that when you check out Craigslist you don't see a hundred different ads each day for various unwanted morphs that people are trying to rehome...

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

If you think mixing species of dogs is the same with breeding different morphs of Ball Pythons....you need to leave.

I cannot begin to describe how assinine this statement sounds. A poodle bred to a great dane, WILL NEVER be the same as a bumblebee or whatever was quoted. The fact that you even think that is quite scary.

There are over 800 different breeds of dogs, all of which are completely different in the genetic make up, except for the fact that they are in fact, DOGS.

How many morphs of ball pythons that you know of are physically different from the other, not color, but shape/size........0. you breed to ball pythons together, they are still two ball pythons. You breed two dogs together, they may be "dogs" but with the genetic variations of "dog" they are not the same species, but Sub-species.

I really cannot believe that you actually typed this. It may be your opinion, but when opinions involve facts......are they really opinions?

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A little rude in the delivery but I totally agree with what you're sayin!

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Originally Posted by sho220

The difference between dogs and balls is that when you check out Craigslist you don't see a hundred different ads each day for various unwanted morphs that people are trying to rehome...

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Not sure how this has any weight in the subject?

When you breed two different breeds of dogs, the offspring will look more like either one breed or the other...it takes successive generations of line breeding to get the pooches to 'breed true'...where all the pups will have a distinctive look.

These designer dogs are just first generation breeding experiments...no better than the Heinz57 at the pound, they shouldn't command hundreds of dollars.

And all I'll say to the comparison of BPs...they are a whole different animal... apples and oranges.

I think one of the big problems with selling dog mixes is opening the door to a bunch of lies or at least misleading consumers. That said I have a mixed breed dog (PitbullxVisla) that is a rescue and by far the smartest, best dog I have ever had. I agree if you want a mix go rescue one and not open the door to scamming puppy mills. Not that they are all going to be like that but there are enough of them to be concerned.

A snake combo on the otherhand is much more obvious and distinguishable to the educated consumer(who is most likely to purchase a high priced snake). We also dont have public facilities full of ball python morph combos being put to sleep daily. When I rescued my dog 4.5 years ago the city of Los Angeles was exterminating 250 dogs a day. That is a very sad fact.

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Originally Posted by stangs13

This just further proves Wes's comment.

Connie, have you talked to your local SPCA about the add? They might be able to do something.

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Agreed on the comment.

As to the SPCA... they don't have any grounds to assume they are going to open a mill. In fact, what constitutes a puppy mill? Breeding dogs isn't illegal, it's more often the conditions the dogs are kept in that get people in trouble.

I'm very picky when it comes to backyard breeders. On the one hand, if they are well aware of breed specific problems and are in it for the GOOD and BETTERMENT of the breed (whatever it may be) then I'm all for it.

I do NOT like the "designer dogs" that are made for the SOLE purpose of making as many as possible and selling for money. (which I believe the ad is leaning to)

There is no care for physical well being, tests to ensure sound bodies and temperament, no training in skills of obedience, tracking, working etc... They are made solely for MONEY, and because of this silly notion that their mutts are worth more than a purebred animal that has roots going back hundreds of years.

Yes, I don't mind breeding of different breeds within reason, that's how many of our breeds were brought around, but this willy nilly mix and match, cabbage patch crap pisses me off. It's for lining their pockets, not for making a better and more capable working or companion animal.

Go to the pound for heavens sake, I love going to the pound and seeing all the smiley dogs. They have so much love and companionship to give. I will give my home to one of them sometime hopefully soon.

[QUOTE=Patrick Long;834721]If you think mixing species of dogs is the same with breeding different morphs of Ball Pythons....you need to leave.

I cannot begin to describe how assinine this statement sounds. A poodle bred to a great dane, WILL NEVER be the same as a bumblebee or whatever was quoted. The fact that you even think that is quite scary.
End quote

If YOU think species is the same as breeds, then maybe you need to check your facts. A dog is a species. A dane is a breed. A dane is a dog.
A pastel ball python is a ball python. A spider ball python is a ball python. Breeding the two together is like mixing a dane and pekenise GENETICALLY. NOT physically, not morally.
It's genetics I was discussing, and not the morals, which I then went into seperately.

Breeding for profit without regard to the health and well-being of any animal is wrong. Which I said. I merely am pointing out that you cannot say that it's a mix of two Species to breed two dogs together, no matter what Breed they are.

There are plenty of good breeders of dogs, and tons and tons of bad ones. Don't support the bad ones, and shut down anyone who is uncaring of the welfare of their animals, no matter what species they breed.
And maybe try to stay a little polite when posting. I know.. it's a stretch when someone doesn't mimic exactly what you said. Just try real hard.

Wolfy-hound is correct on this one. All dogs are the same species, regardless of their physical traits. They have the same genetic makeup, though the traits vary. It's like if you selectively bred large ball pythons and small ones separately, and over many many generations of line breeding, you ended up with a line of large snakes and a line of small snakes. They may look physically different, but they are still ball pythons. There probably isn't as much variation in other traits besides color, though, but I was just trying to make a comparison. It can't at all be compared to breeding two separate species. Any background in basic genetics will tell you that.

And yes, I also have a problem with ads like that because there are a lot of dogs that need homes and obviously they are putting no thought into the health and well-being of these dogs.

All of the bickering is moved to the Quarantine room.

If you need access, please PM any Admin (name in red)

I view mixing BP morphs as being purely aesthetic - the snake is still a ball python, it just has different coloring/patterns. It still acts like a BP, with all the same general temperament and habits, etc.

But dogs are not BPs. When you mix dog breeds you warp the fundamental aspects of the dog; its intelligence, temperament, behaviour, not to mention the various physical traits. Mutts really are mixed-bags, no pun intended.

When you have a pure-blood dog you can safely make statements like, "such-and-such is typical for this breed." With mutts you can't do that. One may inherit the loyalty of its fathers breed with the hunting instinct of its mothers, while a sibling may inherit a warped hunting streak from mom resulting in heightened aggression, with a warped sense of loyalty to the person it views as the 'pack leader' to the exclusion of all others... including your children. You just don't know.

On an ethical note; mutts also inherit the health problems from both of its parent’s breeds. Keep in mind that often the breeds being mixed originate from radically different parts of the world, where they’ve respectively evolved to possess traits specific to that location. Was a stout thick-furred Husky really meant to breed with an Arabian racing hound? Its offspring (I think they call it a “Huscbian”) suffers from crippling arthritis and is prone to heatstroke, seizures, and a plethora of other medical issues which many feel is a result of the mixing of such opposite breeds. But people still do it. They look "cute" as puppies.

I am against this new craze of creating mutts and calling them "designer". I think it dilutes the gene pool to a detrimental end.

There are people who've spent centuries maintaining breeds of dog with pure blood for a reason. Sadly, I think the vast majority of people who take up this latest craze are motivated by one thing... $$$.

Personally I don't have a problem with "designer dogs" all together. I think if someone wants a golden doodle or whatever thats fine but I think that any of the mixed breed dogs should be fixed. If I want to breed a poodle with a golden to make golden doodles, fine, but all of the puppies should be forced to be fixed as there is no point in them being intact imho if they are not purebred.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Mixing a borneo and a ball is mixing species. Mixing a pug and a poodle is mixing "morphs" of one species(the dog).
There's no real difference genetically in making a "puggle" than making a "bumblebee", since both mix seperate distinctly bred lines.
The REAL LIFE difference is in breeding dogs when many dogs are being put to sleep in shelters. But then you get.. why breed ANY dogs? It's a large can o worms to breed any dog.. whether purebred or not. Why not restrict breeding to only the very prime healthiest stock of purebred AKC breeds? Well.. because not all breeds are recognized by AKC. Some people prefer non-purebreds thinking purebreds are all inbred. Some like this.. some like that.
If someone breeds a litter of pups, correctly cares for parents and pups, and sells them into a good home, then I see no moral difference to that, than in a purebred breeder doing the same. There are many purebreds in shelters too!
That said, the ad is "clearly to me" for a mill type organization, since a family should not need that many dogs that they are advertising for, nor that many different breeds.
Why not charge big bucks for "mutts"? If someone will pay it, then charge it. Maybe that mutt will have more value in their eyes if they pay a big price. The issue is normally that people then try to breed THEIR dogs.. thinking they will make big money.. then they skimp on the care of the animals.. or skimp on the checking out the buyers...
Well.. another long ramble.
The big difference to me is that snakes are solitary by nature, and prefer to not have contact and socialization for the most part. Dogs are more needy, needing care and exercise and attention and affection and training. Can you keep 50 dogs for breeding and give ALL of them that? Now.. can you keep 50 snakes and give them what they need? Probaly so.
Unless you walk your snakes with that ultra cool snake walker of course...

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Originally Posted by Corrupter

Breeding 2 different kinds of dogs is not like breeding 2 different kinds of ball pythons. With 2 diff morphs of ball pythons, you have to remember that the only main differences are the colors and pattern of the snake. There arent any physical differences like size and shape of the animal. With dogs, they are all different sizes and shapes. In some cases it isnt even safe to breed 2 dogs together, or even physically possible (imagine a male great dane and a female chuhuahua for example) Even though some consider all dogs the same species, they have evolved to so many different breeds that it doesnt make sense to say a dog is a dog and all can/should be mixed. Would you say the same about snakes? Is a snake a snake? Going even more specific, is a python a python? Of course you can get diff kinds of pythons to breed just like you can get different kinds of dogs to breed but why would you want to mix them together when it is recognized by most serious breeders/owners as a mutt?

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Wolfly-hound and corrupter both make good points. One of the reasons I think there is a lot of confusion in this thread is that there really is a lot of ambiguity surrounding the term "species". You see professional biologists have a lot of difficultly right now defining exactly what a species. Often biologists define two different organisms as a separate species more on their exact field of work rather than easy to follow set of hard and fast rules. In biology, there are many different concepts of a species.


Two very similar looking snake species may actually have more in common genetically than two different breeds of dogs. Furthermore, say intelligent life evolves long after the human species disappears from this planet or an extraterrestrial intelligence visits this planet long after we are gone. Their paleontologists may very well classify a great dane and a pug as different species based on the morphological species concept.

Depending on what type of species concept you use you can classify two different organisms as the same species or different species. I do not think whether or not two organisms are classified as the same species has anything to do with whether or not you "should" breed the two organisms together in society.
In other words, I dont think you can use the fact that two different organisms are of a separate species as a hard and fast rule in breeding ethics. Because there is no one hard and fast concept of species!

For example, for argument’s sake in captivity I think you (could) make a better case that it is more ethical to breed a ball and an Angolan python together than say a two a male great dane and a female poodle. The female will need to have a c-section in order to deliver the pups. The c-section may need to be done earlier and many of the pups will likely be too premature to survive. This would not be the case for the hybrid offspring of the snakes.

That being said I don’t have anything per se against designer dogs or mutts. Some mutts are healthier than certain pure breed dogs. Some pure breed dogs, like pugs, can often only deliver by c-section. Some pure-breeds have tons of health problems that mutts don’t. Some pure-breeds are prone to seizures, hip dysplasia, breathing problems, etc. There are advantages of having a pure-breed-you are more likely to know what health problems to look out for and you have an idea of its temperament and final size. However, as wolfy pointed out there are now healthy lines of “designer dog breeds” such as labradoodles that are propagated by breeders that are not in it just for the money and are in it for the “betterment” of the breed and care of the dogs.

That being said I think the ad is a little iffy in that it seems they just want to buy all those different dogs outright without any respect to each of the dogs own particular characteristics. But I don’t think that is necessarily related to the designer dogs that would be created with that group. If I saw an ad that said “wanted 10 Italian greyhounds asap with breeding rights ”, then I would raise an eyebrow or two and be a little suspicious.

However, it hard to judge too much on a single ad, it has more to do with how the dogs are raised and treated. And some people just like too pass judgment too much in my opinion.

Some people judge me because I bought my Italian greyhound (iggy) from a breeder rather than adopt an iggy or just adopt any dog. “There are so many dogs that need good homes that need rescued, etc.” They say it as though I am contributing to the problem of dogs being in shelters.

However, some dogs up for adoption have developed bad habits and mean temperaments. Furthermore, my dog was born and it needed a good home eventually or it might have ended up in rescue. Also whose saying I would be able to put up with all of that and I may have just given the dog back to the shelter. Other people because of the time they have or their lifestyle may be able to put up and deal with retraining and that’s awesome. But that doesn’t mean that you should only get a dog from a shelter.

I went to the breeder’s home twice before buying it and saw the conditions my dog was born into and got references. It was a very family friendly home in which the puppies were brought into. We often get comments on how friendly and non-jittery our dog is compared to other Italian greyhounds.

I’m not even sure the breeders that we bought our iggy off of were totally in it for the “betterment” of the breed-to create show quality dogs etc. This couple had raised Italian greyhounds as pet for many years and had two small children---I think they were mostly breeding to make a few extra bucks for their kids college funds. But they had experience with the breed, animal care ethics, and they weren’t being greedy and just selling the puppies off asap. They were in it for the long haul for very good financial reasons. However, I know some people who would quickly dismiss them as "backyard breeders" because they dont do too much rescue or have a professional looking website, etc But I am pleased with the companion we obtained from them.

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Originally Posted by jknudson

When you breed two different breeds of dogs, the offspring will look more like either one breed or the other...it takes successive generations of line breeding to get the pooches to 'breed true'...where all the pups will have a distinctive look.

These designer dogs are just first generation breeding experiments...no better than the Heinz57 at the pound, they shouldn't command hundreds of dollars.

And all I'll say to the comparison of BPs...they are a whole different animal... apples and oranges.

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I don't know how true that is. My dog is a Chihuahua/Poodle mix. Heres a picture of her;
http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs15/f/20...kcrystal22.png
And heres a picture of her brother and her as puppies;
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...DSC01541-1.jpg

Even through two generations (her parents and grandparents were both Chi/Poo mixes) they still have very definite characteristics of one or the other breed.

If thats not what you meant than nevermind.. Ahaha. :]

Aside from the "designer dog" issue and regarding the ad referred to in the first post, any respectable dog breeder would only breed dogs that were fine examples of the breed after determining that the dog conformed to breed standards and had excellent health. The dog should also possess a good pedigree (though I will admit to occasionally seeing nice dogs that were bred without papers but I wouldn't endorse doing that). This ad to buy any old dog for breeding purposes is obviously from a disgusting puppy mill that would breed without regard to passing on genetic problems to make the almighty dollar.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

I don't know how true that is. My dog is a Chihuahua/Poodle mix. Heres a picture of her;
http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs15/f/20...kcrystal22.png
And heres a picture of her brother and her as puppies;
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...DSC01541-1.jpg

Even through two generations (her parents and grandparents were both Chi/Poo mixes) they still have very definite characteristics of one or the other breed.

If thats not what you meant than nevermind.. Ahaha. :]

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That was exactly my point... to take these designer mixes, to make them a "defined breed" they would have to breed them further so you don't get the ambiguity of traits. All the puppies should look the same... To do this, it will take successive generations of breeding.

Pretty good article on this topic:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ignerdogs.html

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Pretty good article on this topic:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ignerdogs.html

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No matter the source, a reporter not intimately versed in the topic of an article can only reflect what they are told by experts. Even the self-proclaimed type. To me, this article reflects that.

From the article:

"I was increasingly disheartened with breeding German shepherds," said Manners. "These dogs, like other pure breeds of the show world had been bred for looks, and health was largely ignored. German shepherds, for example, are plagued with 89 inherited disorders."

German Shepherds are used as police/armed forces dogs across the world, most notably here in North America. Their high intelligence, loyalty, ability to take command, as well as many other traits makes them ideal for the job. If they were so defunct, you'd think they would have been out of that game centuries ago. Notably Manners operates a designer dog business. Perhaps he is trying to forge a new, legitimized dog breed... only time will tell. But for this person to take a dump on legit pure-blood dog breeds like that is, I feel, disrespectful and ignorant.

The fact that he'd choose the German Shepherd as an example - a dog used by police and armed forces personnel for centuries - makes his comments highly suspect. I question the motivations for his various swipes at pure-blood animals in this article. For example; I've been unable to find any other source claiming German shepherds have "89 inherant disorders." I didn't just check online, either; I asked my brothers friend who trains dogs (mostly German shepherds) for the police force. She had no idea where that number came from.

You will also notice that Manners didn't mention how many health issues his lapadoodles have. Ah, but they've not been around long enough to really know.

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Originally Posted by NightLad

No matter the source, a reporter not intimately versed in the topic of an article can only reflect what they are told by experts. Even the self-proclaimed type. To me, this article reflects that.

From the article:

"I was increasingly disheartened with breeding German shepherds," said Manners. "These dogs, like other pure breeds of the show world had been bred for looks, and health was largely ignored. German shepherds, for example, are plagued with 89 inherited disorders."

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I find that so strange to read....:rolleyes:

Considering I grew up around many German Shepard's, and what I know of breeders of GSD's, they take great pride in their pairings that have shown little to no inherited problems. Responsible breeders do yearly tests for these disorders, and many will guarantee the animals do not carry them, or the line has had minimum occurrences. Many responsible breeders have dogs bred that are an accomplished champion in some working event or show.

I think he is talking about his back end in short, it simply goes against all my experiences talking with breeders of many different breeds. Health is one of the first things taken into account for responsible breeders before a pairing. We're not talking the occasional breeder here, but the people who give their lives and homes to bettering the breed, or maintaining the standards...

They are increasingly in the minority these days...

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Originally Posted by NightLad

I've been unable to find any other source claiming German shepherds have "89 inherant disorders." I didn't just check online, either; I asked my brothers friend who trains dogs (mostly German shepherds) for the police force. She had no idea where that number came from.

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German shepherds do have many problems compaired to other dog breeds. Hip displaysia being the biggest. Most breeders will tell you that there dogs don't have these problems though, they have had them tested. There still great dogs, my dad was a dog handler in the army and in the police force and had GSs and Belgian malnwa( that is not the right spelling at all...LOL). I wont hesitate to ever buy a GS. Nice thread everyone!!

my opinion on this.....

snakes are a different ballgame (pardon the pun) entirely.

dogs on the otherhand....well i can' believe mixing these breeds, that akc and other dog

associations recognize them. (part of evolution maybe?)

on the other hand....breeding dogs is cool if done properly and legally and most

importantly...humanely. i feel that if people pay for a dog, they are more likely to care for

it.

i have seen toooo many free puppies get passed around like they are an ashtray or

something.

I would like to point out, German Shepards(and a LOT of AKC breeds) have not "been around for centuries".
German shepards as they are known today are slightly over One century old. Many other breeds are not even fifty. Most of the toy breeds came about very recently.
That's still a LOT of generations, and some breeds HAVE been around for a long long time(usually the Japanese, or chinese breeds).
Any dog being bred can have genetic issues, or defects. The breeder should always be aware of the dog's health and possible issues prior to breeding it, and if they just don't really care, they shouldn't be breeding dogs.
The lack of specifics in the original ad shows that they don't seem at all concerned with the quality of dog, and in fact, very few breeders would part with a quality intact female of breeding age.

i agree. sheps are my favorite. i just put mine down a year ago...he was 13.

different breeds have different ailments and qualities. if it is to improve the overall quality of the animal, then great. but its all about dead presidents now.

as a breeder myself, i took a long time to pick my breeders. i didn't care if i got to breed that year as long as i could find what i wanted, the best.

akc, ukc they are corrupt. as long as you have your fee money, they give you papers. its a shame. my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Corrupter

Breeding 2 different kinds of dogs is not like breeding 2 different kinds of ball pythons.

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All dogs. Are the same species. Just with different physical Attributes. So yes. It is akin to breeding two different kinds of ball pythons.

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Originally Posted by wendy

akc, ukc they are corrupt. as long as you have your fee money, they give you papers. its a shame. my 2 cents.

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Why do you think they are corrupt? Papers are needed to register an animal with known lineages, from my understanding. Not just anyone can register their dog because they have money. And the litter needs to be registered for an animal to become AKC register-able.

The problem arises when you have papers, so you use those papers to register a litter of pups that are not from those dogs. Or you say there are more pups in a legitimate litter, and sell the extra papers, or use pups from another litter and say those are from the original litter.
You can buy papers from unscrupulous breeders for dogs that have no papers, then breed all you like.
Puppy mills are infamous for turning out large litters of pups, like 8 maltese in one litter... then any fluffy white puppy of about the right age, or younger suddenly becomes a 'maltese AKC papered'. They even have files of extra papers so they can supply whatever type of pup. The same white fluffy pup can be a shih tzu, lsasa, poodle, bichon, maltese, havanese, etc.
The AKC and other organizations are just as corupt as any organization, in that there's always someone that is supposed to check, and obviously doesn't, or "overlooks" discrepancies.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I would like to point out, German Shepards(and a LOT of AKC breeds) have not "been around for centuries".
German shepards as they are known today are slightly over One century old. Many other breeds are not even fifty. Most of the toy breeds came about very recently.
That's still a LOT of generations, and some breeds HAVE been around for a long long time(usually the Japanese, or chinese breeds).
Any dog being bred can have genetic issues, or defects. The breeder should always be aware of the dog's health and possible issues prior to breeding it, and if they just don't really care, they shouldn't be breeding dogs.
The lack of specifics in the original ad shows that they don't seem at all concerned with the quality of dog, and in fact, very few breeders would part with a quality intact female of breeding age.

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German Shepherds have been around for centuries with the same basic drives and instinct but the standards used today were only around for about a century. You can see photos of dogs referred to as German Shepherds from the mid 1800's but they differ greatly in appearance from the dogs of today. If my memory serves me correctly, a German military guy from the Kaiser Wilhelm era drew up the current standard. The general appearance of most breeds constantly evolves as change is not preventable. Everything that you said is essentially correct, I am just being a nitpicker.

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Originally Posted by dsirkle

German Shepherds have been around for centuries with the same basic drives and instinct but the standards used today were only around for about a century. You can see photos of dogs referred to as German Shepherds from the mid 1800's but they differ greatly in appearance from the dogs of today. If my memory serves me correctly, a German military guy from the Kaiser Wilhelm era drew up the current standard. The general appearance of most breeds constantly evolves as change is not preventable. Everything that you said is essentially correct, I am just being a nitpicker.

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And also on that note, the standards for breeding the GSD in Europe are different than the American version. So much so, I think they will begin to look startingly different in the future. My future dog will hopefully be the black color phase, or the white. I love the classic black and sable, but you don't see very many pure blacks or whites. :)

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Originally Posted by mooingtricycle

All dogs. Are the same species. Just with different physical Attributes. So yes. It is akin to breeding two different kinds of ball pythons.

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All dogs may be categorized in the umbrella Canis familiaris, yet they differ radically from breed to breed. I’m not just talking about physical traits, either. Anybody who has owned dogs of different breeds will know that the inherent qualities of the dogs, such as mental ability, instinctual reaction, personality traits typical for the breed and general temperament (to name a few) differ greatly.

BPs, on the other hand, will exhibit the same BP traits no matter what morph they are – because a BP morph is only a superficial (aesthetic) difference between snakes. When you mix breeds of dog, you get a mixed bag with who-knows-what inherited and/or warped from the sire and dame. This point is discussed widely in dog breeding circles. The following points were made by one long-time breeder:

1. Purebred dogs are not mixes, because they breed true. That means that you can predict what they will look like, grow to become, act like, and what capabilities they will have from the moment they are conceived. This is NEVER the case with a mixed breed dog...you have no idea which genes you will get from which parent, nor which they will resemble, nor which breed in their background will most influence their temperament.

It takes many, many generations of selection to breed true. You can't breed one litter from two different breed parents and say that you have created a "new breed".

2. The purebreds we have today were never "designer" breeds -- they were never developed specifically for sale to the public as pets. They were never bred for "marketability". They were bred and developed for a PURPOSE -- a better hunting dog for lowland game; a better herding dog for the rough, hilly terrain of the Shetland Islands; a better Guardian for a tax collector; a better sled dog to ensure the SURVIVAL of a native tribe.

The "designer dogs" being mass-produced and sold to the public like Ugg Boots or Hollister jeans these days were developed for no noble, useful reason. THEY WERE DEVELOPED TO MAKE SOMEONE MONEY AT THE EXPENSE OF THE DOGS INVOLVED.

3. If people research their breeders, they will get what they pay for with a purebred. The same is NEVER true of a "designer" mix.

While all dogs may be members of Canis familiaris, they are not equal.

* Above emphasis/capitalization as appeared in original.

Actually a lot of the toy breeds were designed specifically for marketability to the upper class and people of the royal courts, when toy dogs came into fashion.
Yeah, I know.. I love to nitpick too. But I've been pet grooming for 17 years. Dog info/trivia is fun and impresses the clients.

my question is this- who says that all ball python morphs are limited to coloration differences? just because breeders are selectively breeding for those colors, who says that there are not other traits that 'morph'? lets face it, based on body structure, there aren't that many visible traits we can use for spotting differences compared to dogs. there could easily be health traits in the wild that are still being naturally selected. how many other distinct morphs would breeders come up with if they weren't selecting for color, but rather other traits? blood hounds have a better sense of smell than many other breeds, and i would be willing to bet money that this is a trait that breeders could actively select for if you had a way to measure this sense. if people spent 500+ years breeding balls for these types of traits, it is possible the ball python species would be just as confusing as dogs are today.

This is what it all comes down to, snake or dog:

You Shouldn't Breed Just For The Money!

Even if you had a champion show dog with perfect traits, you should not breed that dog just to get the green. If you aren't interested in bettering that breed with your dog's genetics, then don't breed it.
If you had the latest BP morph, a crazy wild pattern and bright outstanding colors that never faded with age, you should not breed that snake just to get the thousands of dollars a new morph may bring.

From individuals just looking to make a buck, to those horrid puppy mills, NONE of those people should be breeding their animals. Same goes for the new snake owner who saw the price tags at a show. Cats, Birds, Reptiles... all the same.

Never breed an animal, potentially effecting it's health and future, if you're only interested in the almighty dollar.

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Originally Posted by gmcclurelssu

my question is this- who says that all ball python morphs are limited to coloration differences? just because breeders are selectively breeding for those colors, who says that there are not other traits that 'morph'? lets face it, based on body structure, there aren't that many visible traits we can use for spotting differences compared to dogs. there could easily be health traits in the wild that are still being naturally selected. how many other distinct morphs would breeders come up with if they weren't selecting for color, but rather other traits? blood hounds have a better sense of smell than many other breeds, and i would be willing to bet money that this is a trait that breeders could actively select for if you had a way to measure this sense. if people spent 500+ years breeding balls for these types of traits, it is possible the ball python species would be just as confusing as dogs are today.

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:) 100% Correct! Its not generally thought of in that sense. If ball pythons are kept for nearly as long as dogs have been as pets, by golly we might even see some different ball pythons down the road. Selective breeding is what its all comes down to, regardless of species.

All traits do not need to be visible for them to relate in the same manner that they do dogs. Comparing the two in the first place, is kind of a silly notion though. But hey. whatever.

Ah I dont care either way all dogs in Fact came from wolves. If i werent for selective breeding then we wouldnt have any of the cool dog breeds. And yes they are dog BREEDS not individual species. There is only one species of dog and it is Canis lupus familiaris. look it up. And yes I do think this is the same as breeding snakes for certain traits. Only difference is that most dogs were bred for a purpose and snakes are purely for hobby. Not speaking badly about breeding snakes but we arent breeding snakes to aid in hunting or herding. I am sure I will take some crap for this post but what the hell. :cool:

We need to define the difference between a BREED and a MORPH. As far as I can tell the word MORPH indicates purely a color/pattern difference, and BREED means a group within a species with particular characteristics, which can include both physical and behavioral. Am I correct?

Not really. Norwich and Norfolk terriers are nearlu identical, both have the same general look, and disposition.
That's the same across many of the dog breeds, and of course dogs are individuals. When you add in the environmental element of how the dog is raised, what temperment the family has, are there other dogs in the household, then you'll end up with many differences within even littermates.