Update on last 3 spiders (Graphic pics)

Tonight when I went in to check on them I could smell something wasn't normal.

So we decided to remove them from the eggs. Two were extremely deformed and kinked. One of those didn't even seem to have formed a head :(

The third one looked to be kinked at the end of its tail. Other then that it was hands down one of the best looking spiders I've seen. (besides Baba G of course).

Here are a few shots of what I found.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...keys/004-1.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...keys/003-1.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...nakeys/001.jpg

OMG, they are spectacular looking, besides the obvious.

that is really terrible. Any thoughts as to why?

One almost looks axanthic spider like.

that sucks susan....sorry this happened

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

OMG, they are spectacular looking, besides the obvious.

that is really terrible. Any thoughts as to why?

One almost looks axanthic spider like.

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Well considering the other four hatched with no problems at all, and these three had never really came out to start to breathe air I am going to chuck it up to nature. I really think at this point it was beyond my control. Even if I had removed them yesterday when I saw movement I would have still ended up with kinked and deformed hatchlings.

I am just thankful for the four healthy ones that made it.

Yeah thats really cool that the others are doing good. Do the others have that axanthic like look?

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

Yeah thats really cool that the others are doing good. Do the others have that axanthic like look?

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No.

I ended up with three normals, and one awesome spider.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...nakeys/8-3.jpg

Cell phone pic :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

OMG, they are spectacular looking, besides the obvious.

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I agree. Very sorry Susan. At least you know you have a breeder that produces some of the best looking spiders around.

Oh I am sorry to hear that Susan, I know how excited you were about this clutch :hug:

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

I agree. Very sorry Susan. At least you know you have a breeder that produces some of the best looking spiders around.

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Very sorry too Susan! but I wouldnt let go of the spider you got... very nice.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

I agree. Very sorry Susan. At least you know you have a breeder that produces some of the best looking spiders around.

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Thanks Jake :hug:

For one second it was almost too much for me to handle, but after taking them out of the eggs I feel I would NOT and could NOT have done anything differently or better for them to have suvirved.

Having the others hatch was a awesome feeling, and these things happen, its a part of life. I am not going to give up!

That spider is really really nice! love the stripe

dude...that no headed one is trippin me out.

It would have been one of the best spiders I have seen!

ffff...ggg.

They would have all been stunners!

I am sorry Susie q.

:hug:

sorry to hear....:( but that spider is awesome and it makes him even that more special

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Oh I am sorry to hear that Susan, I know how excited you were about this clutch :hug:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Very sorry too Susan! but I wouldnt let go of the spider you got... very nice.

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Thanks Deb and Connie :hug:

That spider is NOT going anywhere!

wow...that's sad. Beautiful animals that just didn't have a chance....that just sucks...:tears:

So sorry Sues:(
There is always next time:)

Susan,

Having this happen is never ever easy...

I'm sorry you had to experience it, but it does make you treasure your animals that much more.

:grouphug:

You still rock my socks :)

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Originally Posted by daaangconcepts

That spider is NOT going anywhere!

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Yay! I want to she him/her grow up.

Sorry to hear susan!! Next year will be better for sure! They were gorgeous spiders.:(

Sorry they didn't make it Susan...

I'm really sorry Susan, but on the bright side its makes the spider you get to keep all the more special now. :hug:

:( Im so sorry for your loss... thank you for supplying the photos, im sure it was a difficult thing to do

Oh my, Susan I am so sorry.
I know the feeling though, I had a crestie pip, and never came out and I finally rook it out the egg. Its little heart was on the outside of its chest, but its chest was almost completely closed up. Its spine was also really odd looking. I was really, really bummed. I looked for any reason that it could have happened but I too just chalked it up to nature. There were no other factors that could have played into it.

At least you got 4 healthy babies, including one smokin' little spider!

Susan,

I'm so sorry that happened, but thank you for sharing the pictures for others to see. :(

I know you're going to cherish the others though! And the one spider that survived is HOT!!!!

how often does that happen in a clutch, is it rare for all to hatch sucessfully?

So sorry Susan! Baba is one studly male though,..he makes great looking babies!..

Susan, sorry for your loss. They look like they would have been stunning spiders. that third one with the solid dorsal stripe.. shame it didn't make it. But the surviving hatchlings are beautiful and here's to next season and another chance.

I'm sorry to see that Susie Q, but there was obviously nothing you could do! Poor little guys just weren't chalked up to make it.:(

They would've been beauties, at least you got one healthy looker!

Thats sad to see. Even if they were normals it would still be heart breaking. At first I was thinking this could have been caused by high temps but from your other post you stated they were at 88 degrees with a helix so there is very little chance there.

The only other thing I could think is perhaps the spider gene mixed with an unknown gene in your normal parent proved fatal? Perhaps you should breed that female to something else next season.

I wish you luck in the future!

Richard

Dealing with doa babies is tuff. I HATE it. You are taking it like a champ.

Justin

That's really too bad. :( By the looks of them, they may never have hatched and you cutting the eggs just let you see their condition.

Best of luck next time though! :)

Sorry daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaang! but a repeat breeding seems like a must with the beauties that they spit out!

I'm so sorry that you lost some of your babies. :tears:

At least you still have some and they are gorgeous.

wow i am soo sorry for your loss of those little guys. it must be tough even though you got three healthy normals and one incredible spider. maybe next year it will be different so you better try it again. congrats on the healthy little beauties though!

I've had 3 severely kinked snakes -- each from a different clutch AND different sire. It happens independent of genetics and incubation temps. I am always amazed when they come out of that egg after being all cramped up for two months.:O Nature is AMAZING!!!!:worship:

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Originally Posted by 420boa

how often does that happen in a clutch, is it rare for all to hatch sucessfully?

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I don't think it is rare to hatch a full clutch successfully ...however, I am wondering how rare it is to lose this many in one clutch with almost all the same issues.

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Originally Posted by Somed00d

Thats sad to see. Even if they were normals it would still be heart breaking. At first I was thinking this could have been caused by high temps but from your other post you stated they were at 88 degrees with a helix so there is very little chance there.

The only other thing I could think is perhaps the spider gene mixed with an unknown gene in your normal parent proved fatal? Perhaps you should breed that female to something else next season.

I wish you luck in the future!

Richard

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These are some of the same topics a friend of mine and I were discussing yesterday.

I know for a fact that she is hooked up with a nice bator set by a helix so I don't see how she would have had any temp spikes/drops.

but I also am curious about the gene thing.

I mean..what are the chances of Baba G and this normal female to throw another clutch like this again next year?

Could it be just a fluke thing or do you guys think maybe genetics did play a role?

Sorry Susan...I am not tryng to hijack your thread I just thought it was an interesting topic.

:oops:

sorry your babies didnt make it but some of them did and thats a good thing. enjoy the lucky ones:)

:(


Sorry you had to go through this. :hug:

If it were me then I would have to pair the two of them up again next year for a couple of reasons - they make good looking spiders and it would let you check there are no genetic problems with pairing them.

But it does look as though those lil ones just weren't slated to make it from the get go so there was nothing you could have done/ did do to cause or prevent this.:(

:grouphug:


dr del

Hey Susan... sorry again that this happened. I'm not sure about you, but I felt better after I followed Chris's advice and pulled my deformed one out. When I saw that it was all kinked up, I knew it wasn't something I had done... this is obviously not something that you caused... But I know it still SUX!

:tears:I am sorry for your loss.

Oh Susan, I'm so very sorry to read that they didn't make it. I am happy for your sake though that if they weren't going to make it they passed themselves so you didn't have to go through the further upset of having to put them down yourself. Sadly some of these little creatures just aren't meant to make it I think no matter how perfect we try to make the experience. Big hugs dear and like others have said, you are handling this with grace and professionalism in sharing it with us.

The remaining hatchlings are all that much more precious because of this experience.

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Originally Posted by MeMe

I don't think it is rare to hatch a full clutch successfully ...however, I am wondering how rare it is to lose this many in one clutch with almost all the same issues.

These are some of the same topics a friend of mine and I were discussing yesterday.

I know for a fact that she is hooked up with a nice bator set by a helix so I don't see how she would have had any temp spikes/drops.

but I also am curious about the gene thing.

I mean..what are the chances of Baba G and this normal female to throw another clutch like this again next year?

Could it be just a fluke thing or do you guys think maybe genetics did play a role?

Sorry Susan...I am not tryng to hijack your thread I just thought it was an interesting topic.

:oops:

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It's a good question MeMe and one I'd be asking myself if I'd just gone through what Susan has with this pairing producing this clutch.

Personally I'd likely put them together again this coming season but also put Baba with a couple of other normal females and see how things go. If he sires normal offspring all around then maybe it was just a fluke thing. If he sires offspring again with this female that aren't healthy (but sires healthy offspring with all the other females) then I guess you'd have to assume that something genetic is triggered by their specific gene combination.

Thank you all so much for your kind words! It really means alot to me. :hug:

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Oh Susan, I'm so very sorry to read that they didn't make it. I am happy for your sake though that if they weren't going to make it they passed themselves so you didn't have to go through the further upset of having to put them down yourself. Sadly some of these little creatures just aren't meant to make it I think no matter how perfect we try to make the experience. Big hugs dear and like others have said, you are handling this with grace and professionalism in sharing it with us.

The remaining hatchlings are all that much more precious because of this experience.

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I couldn't agree more. Even though I was deeply saddened by them passing, I was even more relieved that it was nature and not myself that laid them to rest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MeMe

I don't think it is rare to hatch a full clutch successfully ...however, I am wondering how rare it is to lose this many in one clutch with almost all the same issues.




These are some of the same topics a friend of mine and I were discussing yesterday.

I know for a fact that she is hooked up with a nice bator set by a helix so I don't see how she would have had any temp spikes/drops.

but I also am curious about the gene thing.

I mean..what are the chances of Baba G and this normal female to throw another clutch like this again next year?

Could it be just a fluke thing or do you guys think maybe genetics did play a role?

Sorry Susan...I am not tryng to hijack your thread I just thought it was an interesting topic.

:oops:

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First off, I would like to send some love to Susan, as I know this type of thing is hard to deal with. Also, I would like to thank Susan (and I know MeMe did it last year) for posting up pics of the deformed and deceased babies, as it is an invaluable learning tool for many who have not experienced this before.

To address some of MeMes questions above, I fully believe it is a fluke, and not a genetic disorder brought about from the specific male/female pairing. I base this on a situation that occurred to me. In 2006 I hatched a 7 egg clutch from an Albino bred to a Het Albino. The only Albino in the clutch was severly deformed, and died half way out of the egg. Some of you may remember this picture:
http://www.ball-pythons.net/gallery/.../8/albino2.JPG

We repeated the breeding in the 06/07 season, but the female didn't lay eggs. This year, we repeated the breeding again, and got another 7 eggs. This year we hatched out 4 Albinos and 3 Hets, and none of them had the problem. With that said, the year that the deformed baby hatched, the female was only 20 months old. I think that the age of the female might have something to do with the stress put on her young body. My question to Susan would be:How old was the female that laid the eggs? That may give some insight as to what happened.

Another story I would like to relay is about a couple of clutches that I have seen from other breeders in which the entire clutch had over bites. Every snake that hatched had a half bottom jaw. However, subsequent breedings did not produce the same thing. So, I think that there are definitely some things in nature that will stay unexplained, as other clutches in the same incubator can hatch fine (ruling out temp and humidity, i.e condition, fluctations) and subsequent breedings will not produce the same results.

Lastly, I wanted to address the spider that died that was very light in color. I believe that looking at the picture, that snake had not developed as much as much as the other 2 and probably died at least 7 days prior to the others. If that is the case, it appears to have less color because it sidn't have as much time for color to develop as the other 2, giving the Axanthic appearance.

Thanks for those that have read my long winded post about my theories and beliefs, and I always love to take part in these type of threads, as the rarities are where we really do our advanced learning. Thanks again to Susan for posting the pictures, and I would like to once again send my condolences to her.

Oh no... Im so sorry. they were great looking snakes :(

Glad the others are doing good though :)

:gj:

Monies.

Thank you Tim for your condolences and your explainations.

The female who laid the eggs age is unknown. I bought her at the local herp shop a few years ago as an adult (most likely wild caught) female who turned out to be gravid at the time of purchase.

She laid 8 eggs a few months after I bought her, those eggs went bad during incubation and never hatched.

That I will admit was most likely my fault. I was not a member of any forums, I had never owned any reptiles previously. I read online somewhere I should incubate them myself so I did. Using a chicken egg incubator, nothing to control the temps on the built in bator heater, and a cheapo temp/humidity guage that wasn't even digital. :rolleyes:

I've been following your threads and I'm so sorry to see that they didn't make it! They were gorgeous snakes! I hope you plan to breed again!

Best wishes!

Looks Like They Died Awhile Ago,just Mother Nature I Guess.

Sorry that this happened :( I had a small, kinked hatchling 2 years back that did not make it. Similar situation; I cut the egg open, and it was inside fully formed but all kinked, kinda like a hair scrunchie, and lifeless. I guess that it is just genetics.. but it still bites. On the flipside, the little ones that you posted that are healthy, are gorgeous.

:(:(:(
Sorry to hear about ur loss...But nice looking healthy babies! :gj:

sorry to hear about those you lost... but the other ones you have, are awesome!!!