ASF Trio - Females Fighting

So, I started off with 2.2 - knowing that the dominant male would be the one that ended up being the founding male in my collection, and fed off the one that was getting beat up.

Well, just this week (I've had these guys since April), one of the females took to beating up on the other female. A LOT. I had enough of it tonight and fed the bully off to Murphy, who was more than happy to take that donation! LOL

Now, I know I probably should have fed off the one getting beat up (the strongest survive and stuff), but I just didn't want a bully any longer. I have held back two girls that are still probably a month out from breeding age, so now I have a 1.3 group.

Have any of you experienced a female suddenly turning on the other female that she previously got along with ?

do you have any idea when the were first introduced?? were they from different lines? I am starting to suspect that when different lines are introduced... sometimes they will get a long at first, then fight big time later... sometimes months later.

Robin, I firmly believe there is a dominancy hierarchy within the females in any ASF group. As they begin their breeding cycles at maturity I've seen them start to fuss (even sisters raised together) at each other. When I see it I let it go on as long as nobody's getting chewed up badly because I think they need to sort it out for the good of the colony structure. If it starts to get too much I give the bully a strong squirt of cold water in the face. From what I've seen so far, ASF's simply HATE being wet. Anytime I want to back an ASF off me or another rat or whatever, my misting bottle flipped over to from mist to blast works real well. :)

As long as they have a hide and numerous tubes to run into the less dominant females can generally get away from the dominant female. I've seen one of our dominant females, when her sisters all dove for cover, go over and smack around the poor male who was just minding his own business and eating quietly. We now refer to her as Big "B" (words rhymes with witch LOL). Since that colony is in full production now she's much less pushy with the other females but will still have her days when she has to run around and remind everyone she is boss lady of the colony.

Darn it! why do women have to do this???!!! :D :colbert: :8:

Cause we can! :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankykeno

Cause we can! :P

---

Now that is just mean....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcavana

do you have any idea when the were first introduced?? were they from different lines? I am starting to suspect that when different lines are introduced... sometimes they will get a long at first, then fight big time later... sometimes months later.

---

They were siblings, so they've always been together.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankykeno

Robin, I firmly believe there is a dominancy hierarchy within the females in any ASF group. As they begin their breeding cycles at maturity I've seen them start to fuss (even sisters raised together) at each other. When I see it I let it go on as long as nobody's getting chewed up badly because I think they need to sort it out for the good of the colony structure. If it starts to get too much I give the bully a strong squirt of cold water in the face. From what I've seen so far, ASF's simply HATE being wet. Anytime I want to back an ASF off me or another rat or whatever, my misting bottle flipped over to from mist to blast works real well. :)

As long as they have a hide and numerous tubes to run into the less dominant females can generally get away from the dominant female. I've seen one of our dominant females, when her sisters all dove for cover, go over and smack around the poor male who was just minding his own business and eating quietly. We now refer to her as Big "B" (words rhymes with witch LOL). Since that colony is in full production now she's much less pushy with the other females but will still have her days when she has to run around and remind everyone she is boss lady of the colony.

---

Ah well, too late for the old girl! :weirdface

The only problem now Robin is that you have just a 1.1 pair now? I personally wouldn't try introducing another female into that setup. Anytime I've tried that it was pretty much an instant bloodbath.

Not sure if I read correct or not...If you had 2.2 existing in one tub I would not recommend this at all, siblings or not. If males are battling for "rank" the females are also battling because the ladder isn't stable.

I also agree with Jo, it is difficult introducing a single new asf to a group...even two who have been together a while. I have done it but it is not common for me. My breeding groups are usually put together at a younger age so they still have some "growing up" to do, I don't usually get any violence with this method, but things can still happen to cause disorder just keep an eye on them daily.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankykeno

The only problem now Robin is that you have just a 1.1 pair now? I personally wouldn't try introducing another female into that setup. Anytime I've tried that it was pretty much an instant bloodbath.

---

No, I kept two females in the same enclosure from the first litter, they've always been in the enclosure, so I'd say they have another month before they are sexually mature - they sleep curled up with the older female.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TekWarren

Not sure if I read correct or not...If you had 2.2 existing in one tub I would not recommend this at all, siblings or not. If males are battling for "rank" the females are also battling because the ladder isn't stable.

I also agree with Jo, it is difficult introducing a single new asf to a group...even two who have been together a while. I have done it but it is not common for me. My breeding groups are usually put together at a younger age so they still have some "growing up" to do, I don't usually get any violence with this method, but things can still happen to cause disorder just keep an eye on them daily.

---

These aren't new introductions - they've been in the enclosure since they were born.

I got my 2.2 as young, young ASF's, they didn't have their first litter until a few month after I had them. I was advised to watch to see which male would be dominant and feed off the other one to end up with my trio.

I got these from Ed (freakie_frog). Deborah also got 2.2 and did the same thing, and her 1.2 are doing great.

The extra male was fed off months ago and I had a happy trio for months, raised together. Suddenly this one female started attacking her sister last week. Now the older female is with her nieces (two that I held back and didn't feed off) and her mate and her litter of "hopper" sized babies. She helped to raise the two younger females.

They have hides and an exercise wheel and things to chew on. Until last week, it was a happy, cohesive group.

hrm...I don't recall running into this myself the last couple years. Could be an environmental change (inside or outside their enclosure). Or simply a built up aggravation...I know there are some people that I would prefer not to be around. Could also be a change in social structure if the male is more attentive to one over the other...again just thoughts here.

I'm thinking it was a female dominance fight. The female you fed off was the aggressor. It sounds like she bred and you have her two daughters so she likely assumed the dominant role. When the second female, the victim of the aggression, had her litter she may have challenged the first female and it obviously didn't work out well. Likely now that you removed that dominant female, the remaining adult female will step into that role with her litter and the two younger females. Since she's raised them they will likely accept her dominant position and there shouldn't be a problem in the future.

Don't be surprised though when those two younger females go into breeding with the male if the dominant female schools them a bit. I've noticed that our dominant females will "remind" the other females who is boss if they step out of their place in the colony. Usually it's just a brief scuffle though and doesn't involve bloodshed. Some of the females are more aggressive in their dominance, some aren't.

One of ours asserted herself by claiming all the babies born in the enclosure. She wasn't happy it seems until she's booted every "natural" mother off her litter and taken over all the litters. She'd allow the other females to "babysit" but she did the majority of all care for all the young.

Another of our dominant females claims a food dish. If she's eating then no other adult is allowed near her till she's done. She doesn't seem to mind the young ASF's joining in but other adults get shoved away. She also was quite aggressive with the females that hadn't bred yet when she had her first litter (she bred first in the colony). Once every female had a litter she calmed down somewhat but remains the dominant female of her colony. If she's in a "mood", you can see the other females in the colony staying well away from her and going off to hide in tubes and such. They are all her female siblings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankykeno

Robin, I firmly believe there is a dominancy hierarchy within the females in any ASF group. As they begin their breeding cycles at maturity I've seen them start to fuss (even sisters raised together) at each other.

---

Hey Jo, found something of interest that supports your theory. It's not Natal rats, but it does ring a bell.

Quote:

---

Anouska A. Kinahan1 and Neville Pillay1

(1) School of Animal, Plant and Environmental Sciences, University of Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, South Africa

Received: 26 February 2007 Revised: 12 June 2007 Accepted: 25 August 2007 Published online: 19 September 2007

Communicated by E. Korpimäki
Abstract Dominance status influences the fitness of many mammals. Using African striped mice Rhabdomys pumilio, we tested whether (1) dominant females have greater reproductive success than subordinate females, (2) dominant females influence the reproductive output of subordinate females when they are housed in close proximity, (3) reproductive output of a female changes in response to the dominance status of her neighbours, and (4) whether prolonged association between individuals influences the variance in reproductive success between dominants and subordinates (i.e. the ‘dear enemy’ phenomenon). The size and mass of litters of dominants increased significantly when housed adjacent to subordinates than when housed apart. The litter size and mass of subordinates remained unchanged, although subordinates spent significantly more time with their pups when housed close to dominants than when housed apart; time spent with pups by dominants remained unchanged. Moreover, females modified their reproductive output and behaviour in relation to the dominance status of their neighbours. Following prolonged association, dominants still had greater reproductive success, but now, the time spent with pups decreased in subordinates. We suggest that dominants adopt a strategy to increase the reproductive value of their litter, whereas subordinates adopt a pup defence strategy. These strategies are flexible and are influenced by the dominance status and period of association between neighbours, so that females could maximize their fitness in response to varying social conditions.

---

And if ANYONE has access to Springer link article in English:

The rodent fauna of Tanzania: a cytotaxonomic report from the Maasai Steppe (1999)
La fauna a roditori della Tanzania: rapporto citotassonomico dalla Steppa dei Masai (1999)
Journal Rendiconti Lincei
Publisher Springer Milan
ISSN 1120-6349 (Print) 1720-0776 (Online)
Issue Volume 12, Number 1 / March, 2001
DOI 10.1007/BF02904520
Pages 29-49
Subject Collection Earth and Environmental Science
SpringerLink Date Saturday, May 10, 2008


It would reveal much about our ASF's I think. I just don't think I can buy it...

That's really interesting Connie, thanks!

I've always been fascinated by the social structures of animals, specifically female animals as it relates to breeding, dominance, rearing of young, etc. Having the snake collection has given me the rather nice side benefit of watching both the regular rats and these newer ASF's. I will say the ASF's are much more interesting as their communal, lifetime living arrangement is just fascinating to watch.

It makes sense that close association of breeding age females changes how they reproduce and care for their young. Even in us highly evolved humans, if you put a group of fertile females together in a close living arrangement (family, dorm, etc.) eventually they all begin to cycle very closely together - likely following some hormonal cue from the dominant female of that group. :)

One of my friends has brought this up, but I have no idea...

She has had a 1.4 colony, and the most submissive female in the group had her butt chewed.

A serious butt hole (not meant to be funny) on her lower back the size of a blueberry. Not particularly a hole, but a gouge.

Now, I have NO clue about these animals, but Robin, was this somewhat of the same thing?

I didn't let it get to that point, but she definitely had some bites to her - I actually didn't think she was going to make it the day after I fed off the other female, but she's acting and feeling so much better now - her eyes are brighter and she seems to be much less depressed than she was.

Her nose got a lot of abuse but it's healing up nicely.