Breeder loans... Who's done them, who's currently doing them, etc etc

Just curious if anyone here would like to share their expeirences with breeder loans.

I am looking into options for this upcoming season as my spider male will be ready, but my pastel girl will most likely not be...

Id love to hear stories and or how you guys went about finding someone to work with. I'd really like to produce a bee sooner rather then later... :)

I've done them, do them, and would do them again.

The MAIN THING TO REMEMBER IS THIS:

TRUST

If you can't trust the person you are doing the loan with, then don't do it.

It is all in the morality and the character of the person you are doing it with that you don't get screwed.

Too many things can go wrong that you and the other person cannot control...

And you need to trust the person taking care of the animals and the eggs to do the right thing.

Cool Heather... Hey.. do you prefer to do them with someone locally or have you done them and shipped or recieved snakes from across the country?

This season I put an ad up on here and on fauna. I ended up doing a loan with Jeff Flanagan from this site. He dropped off 3 normal girls to breed with my mojave male. I put the 3rd and final clutch of eggs in an incubator this morning. We got 18 good eggs. The first clutch should hatch in about 3 weeks.

I wrote up a contract and after we made some revisions, he dropped his girls off. We are either going to split the offspring or do a little trading, depending on what we both hatch out. It worked out good because he's only a mile or so from me. So far it's going great. Jeff's a great guy, and I hope this loan finishes as smoothly as it's gone so far, and I'm hoping we can work on a project or two this upcoming season. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by JasonG

do you prefer to do them with someone locally or have you done them and shipped or recieved snakes from across the country?

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I've done both, and will continue to do both as long as EVERYTHING is hammered out ahead of time.

I actually have two this season, both my animals have gone out.

A well written contract is a must - ESPECIALLY if it's a friend. The last thing that you want to happen is that a friendship ends of a mis-understanding. Make sure you're both on the same page about everything.

So far, mine are going well, the two people I have a contract with are great communicators, and they are both people that I know and trust - as Heather hit upon - there has to be trust.

You also have to be willing to outline the difficult stuff - what happens if the loaned animal dies? What are the conditions if that happens?

It's definitely not something to enter into casually.

I've been ripped off on one before. I knew this really nice guy who is well respected in the herp community (will not be named). I loaned him a female I have to breed with his mojave (when they were still $2,000+). He told me he got eggs and will return the female to me at the upcoming show, which he did. He told me she laid two (2) eggs. Was a bit of a shock to me as I could see her dropping 4-5 eggs easily. Next time I see him, he tells me the eggs were hatching and it looks like only two normals. After that I never heard from him again. Yes, I got ripped off on normals. Is it that much of a big deal? To me it is...

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Originally Posted by RKO

I've been ripped off on one before. I knew this really nice guy who is well respected in the herp community (will not be named). I loaned him a female I have to breed with his mojave (when they were still $2,000+). He told me he got eggs and will return the female to me at the upcoming show, which he did. He told me she laid two (2) eggs. Was a bit of a shock to me as I could see her dropping 4-5 eggs easily. Next time I see him, he tells me the eggs were hatching and it looks like only two normals. After that I never heard from him again. Yes, I got ripped off on normals. Is it that much of a big deal? To me it is...

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What was your agreed upon way that normals would be handled?

I'd go without before I did any breeding loans.

I have done breeding loans with friends that I have known for more years than I have been breeding -- these were all loosely done and came out rather well. Mostly they would bring over their females and when they ovulated I'd give them back. On occasion I have lent out my normal females for breeding as well.

In 06 I had a dozen or more normal females that were ready to breed and really nothing to breed them to -- I was working strictly with recessives -- so I entered into an agreement with a well known "good guy" that I had bought from before. I sent him 5 of my females -- close to a year later I get them back -- of the 5 I sent there was one clutch produced mostly normal males - one girl "died" but he wouldn't tell me when or how when I asked that he send her back for necropsy he said he'd already disposed of her -- but he did send me a "replacement". :rolleyes: The other 4 that he sent back were all scrawny and 200 or more grams less than what they were when I sent them the previous year. :rolleyes:

Needless to say I won't be sending out any more snakes on loan. :mad:

I do breeding loans with Jasballs every year. He brings snakes here, I bring snakes to his house. We have never had a contract and never will. That being said I trust John like a brother so I am not worried.

On the other side of the coin; A few years ago I had another "friend" who I sent a big normal female down to so he could throw his Mojave on her. At the time Mojaves were still selling for $4k. After a few months he calls me and says that my female is actually a male. A couple weeks after that I never heard from him again. Sure I lost a 2700 gram female but it was worth it to me to see this "friends" true colors.

I'm sorry to hear about all these bad experiences. My loan with Jeff isn't a huge deal and he was totally chill about the whole thing, but I still insisted on a detailed contract. I have all his snakes, and am incubating all the eggs, so it only benefits him to have one, but when months and months go by, things can happen and details can be forgotten. I felt like a masingill for making him sign my contract, when in reality it was like George on Seinfeld making his fiance sign a prenup when only he could lose, but it keeps everyone honest, and if it doesn't you have recourse. Of course everyone would rather have all the snakes they need to attempt all the projects they want each year, but sometimes it is super beneficial to do a loan if you can find someone you trust and take the time to keep it all documented.

well i have done a few breeding loans. the first one we got eggs from one girl and nothing for the other the eggs we got went bad. which was sad but we all know it can happen. that was my first time with a loan. and she's a member here in the forums that i never meet we just worked out a good contract. this year i have three breeding loans going right now two of them are members here and the other one is a guy i meet at a local pet store and have got to know really good. of those three loan i have gotten two clutchs so far and still waiting on at least two more.

so i would be very willing to do loans. as long as your willing to sign a contract with me. and my contracts over pretty much everything that could happen.

I have breeding loans this season with two people. One is a very good friend of mine that no contracts were signed and we never would. No shipping was needed as she isn't to far away. My other breeding loan is with a member here. I didn't know them before here but I trusted them due to positive experiences others had. A contract was signed that covered all of the bases. In this case, shipping of the animals is utilized due to distance.

Wow I didnt think my thread would get so many replies. Seems the main thing to do is cover your behind when doing the loans. Have everything written out, and keep good communication habits.

If anyone is willing and has a female pastel ready to go for this coming season lmk! My girl aint going to be ready and Id love to get started on some beesssss :)

For those of you who have had positive experiences, and well documented contracts could you share a little more detail as to how the contract was laid out, what topics were covered, even possibley how things were split ? Kind of like a guide or "this was our contract and how we did it...".
Thanks in advance to anyone willing to share.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

What was your agreed upon way that normals would be handled?

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He told me he would bring them to the next show and I could pick which one I wanted. And again, never seen him again.

We have done them and would do them again with someone we trust, and with a good contract I think jo posted the contarct we used for our frist one somewhere on here if you want to see how it was written up. And Gene it was great working with you even thuogh that one didn't work out. Would do it again any time. The most important thing is trust.

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Originally Posted by JasonG

Wow I didnt think my thread would get so many replies. Seems the main thing to do is cover your behind when doing the loans. Have everything written out, and keep good communication habits.

If anyone is willing and has a female pastel ready to go for this coming season lmk! My girl aint going to be ready and Id love to get started on some beesssss :)

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Mine outlined the date that the animal was turned over to the person who would be doing the breeding, what was turned over and weight. That to best of both people's knowledge, both animals were free of internal and external parasites, and clearly stated the length of Quarantine.

Who was responsible to the care of the animal (enclosure, bedding, hydration, medical care, etc) and that if any health issued arised, I would be contacted immediately. The breeder also reserved the right to terminate breeding attempts if they felt that either animal was at a health risk.

There was also acknowledgement that some things happen that are out of our control, and a value was placed on the loaned animal in the event of its death and the period of time that restitution would be paid.

It outlined feeding schedule (frequency and what would be offered).

It listed the animal that it would be bred to and how the offspring would be divided (who chose first, and who got the extra odd animal if it wasn't an even number).

It stipulated how many times the babies would feed before the babies were split and the frequency of feeding the babies.

It also named the independent, non-affliated person who would sex the offspring, and stated that the offspring I chose as well as the loaned animaal would be packaged for overnight delivery and full and complete records would be kept and turned over to me at the time of the return of the animal.

I could see the benefits of breeding loans. I am not sure I would take the responseablity of taking care of someone elses snake and risk something happening to it. But on the other hand if I could pay a fair price to have a normal female bred to say a lav male. I would risk the chance. I mean I wouldnt just up and send my girl to someone that I had not spoken with a few times and got to know.

I have never done one and really dont have any plans to do any.
I have heard horror stories and sucesses. I rather keep my stuff in house, that way I am responsible for the outcome and I can stand firmly behind genetics and health/quality without question.