How Much Wobble Is Too Much In Spiders?

Wobble When Excited At Feeding Time & When Real Alert?im Seeing That Most All Spiders Do This,& Its Like A Dirty Little Secret Of The Morph.

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Originally Posted by greghall

Wobble When Excited At Feeding Time & When Real Alert?im Seeing That Most All Spiders Do This,& Its Like A Dirty Little Secret Of The Morph.

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...ya it's common...and not much of a secret anymore :P

They all have it, and have always had it. It was a dirty and quite unethical secret for years.

I would like to see a discussion on the ethics of even breeding these animals. Is it not a little unethical to continue to breed animals that are nuerologically imparied? Nobody ever asks that question.

Its the equivilent to parkinsons disease in humans, why is it acceptable to intentionally produce animals with this condition , just because they are worth a couple hundred dollars?

Nick

great point Nick just one problem i have 2 adult spiders that have never wobbled or spun so your theory that all spiders do it is a bit off

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Originally Posted by Nick Mutton

They all have it, and have always had it. It was a dirty and quite unethical secret for years.

I would like to see a discussion on the ethics of even breeding these animals. Is it not a little unethical to continue to breed animals that are nuerologically imparied? Nobody ever asks that question.

Its the equivilent to parkinsons disease in humans, why is it acceptable to intentionally produce animals with this condition , just because they are worth a couple hundred dollars?

Nick

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Not true. I have an 06 female that has zero wobble.

NOBODY ADMITS TO HAVING A WOBBLER BUT EVERYBODY SAYS THEIR'S HAS NO WOBBLE AT ALL! SO WHO'S TO SAY AFTER YOU BUY ONE GET IT HOME WATCH IT FOR HOURS TO SEE THE WOBBLE & YOU DECIDE ITS NOT MUCH OR YOU IGNORE IT & SAY ITS OK & CONVINCE YOURSELF THAT ITS A SPIDER & THATS WHAT THEY DO I GUESS ITS OK. I BOUGHT ONE YESTERDAY & IT SEEMED OK WHEN I CHECKED IT OUT AT THE SHOW GOT HER HOME WATCHED HER & TO MY SURPRISE YEAH SHE WOBBLES DOES THAT MEAN I GOT RIPPED OFF($300 FOR ALMOST 400g FEMALE)OR I GOT WHAT I PAID FOR,SHE ATE LIKE A BEAST WHICH I LIKE & IS AWESOME HIGH WHITE SIDES GREAT PATTERN,LETS BE HONEST WHO'S WOBBLE? SAY 90% WOBBLE OR 10% WOBBLE JUST WANT TO KNOW?

If your happy with your purchase then you didn't get ripped off. As far as "everyone" saying theirs doesn't wobble, that's not true. Reputable breeders will tell you the condition of the animals they sell.

I have a wobbler, he didi it a lot in the beginning, when I bought him. H e was stressed. After about two weeks to himself in his cage, it stopped. I don't see him do it anymore. I think he was just stressed.

IM HAPPY (somewhat? or I would'nt be writing this)WITH THE SNAKE SHE LOOKS AWESOME WELL STARTED 07',EATS WELL VERY ALERT,& I THINK $300 WAS A GOOD DEAL,BUT IT JUST MAKES ME THINK WAS IT GROWN UP TO ALMOST 400g & SOLD OFF BECAUSE OF THE WOBBLE OR WHAT.ITS JUST IS GETTING TO ME.MAYBE IM THINKING ABOUT IT TOO MUCH?

I have an '06 spider female whom I bought from a respected and caring breeder and I have never observed a wobble or spin or any other behavior that has been found in spiders who display 'wobbling'. I think that this might suggest that 'the wobble' is not found in all spiders :) I believe this makes the point that with very careful and selective breeding the 'wobble' might be able to be reduced or bred out.

OK IVE HEARD THAT THEY DID WHEN THEY WERE SMALL & GREW OUT OF IT,ALSO DEVLOPED IT WHEN THEY HIT 600g,BRED WOBBLERS & HATCHED NON WOBBLERS ,I GUESS IF A TOUGH CALL TO MAKE IF YOU WANT SPIDERS I GUESS YOU GOT WHAT YOU GOT BE HAPPY.IVE GOT HER NOW SO ILL FATTEN HER UP & TAKE SOME PICKS THIS WEEK & POSTEM.

Tell you the truth, I have never seen my spider wobble at all. got him from RDR and he has been great. He is up to 850 grams and steady as the day I got him.:gj:

While I think a tendency to wobble is part of the spider mutation I don't completely discount claims by people to have large numbers of non wobbling spiders. I suspect there might be some environmental (possibly nutritional) variable effecting which spiders realize their genetic tendency to spin and which don't and if we could just figure it out we might be able to eliminate the problem.

As far as the ethics, what do you think of tumbler pigeons or fainting goats? The general consensus seems to be that even wobbling spiders seem to eat and breed well so I don't think it's a huge quality of life issue. To me the main problem would be in disclosure and marketing. I have no idea what the originator was telling their direct customers but by the time the issue finally became public there where many secondary sellers. I was talking to a big breeder who bought his first spider from one of these secondary seller (i.e. someone who bought from the originator and then produced their own spiders to sell). This secondary spider seller had enough spider experience by then that they should have been fully aware of wobbling. Also, as far as I know this secondary spider seller is no longer in business. So when the big breeder talks to the guy he bought his spider from and describes the wobbling this secondary spider seller told the big breeder (who is someone who has brought new morphs to market) that he was just watching his snake too close and there wasn't an issue. This was all within weeks of it finally breaking public on kingsnake.

I think because you can't control what your customers are going to tell their customers there is an ethical imperative to make any issues public at the time a project is first sold. That way it's a level playing field. Secondary sellers that don't feel the need to mention the issue don't have an advantage over ones that do and customers who aren't well enough connected to have heard of the issue don't have a disadvantage. With all the info out for public discussion each buyer can make up their own mind if they think it's a big deal or not. Once the first animal is sold it’s a public project and there should be no secrets.

Personally I think the spider is just too nice a morph and the issue is minor enough that it should continue to be bred. But by the time I chose to loan my females out to produce my spiders the issue was already public. Both my spiders are young and I haven't seen anything yet. I stopped trying to watch ball pythons eat years ago due to their shy nature but now I'm going to have to try a peak some day to see if I can catch a wobble. Maybe if I had a bad wobbler I would feel differently. I know if I had been an early purchaser paying thousands of dollars for a spider without knowing about this issue I would definitely be upset because even if mine didn’t spin the issue affects the whole spider market.

this is a great post. id love to see how many people have actualy seen the wobble and ignored. i love spiders and am gettin one in sept so please keep this goin guys. thanks!

I mentioned this in another thread a while ago and got no response, lets see if anyone here has an opinion.

When I was a child one of my friends dad had an inner ear disorder that gave him vertigo and he could never walk in a straight line, sometimes it was so severe that he appeared to be quite intoxicated, he never drank.

I wonder if the wobble in spiders could be something like this.

Thanks,

Rich

My spider only did it for the first few months I got him. He was 150g now 700. Now he's fine. He's a really aggressive eater, and when food is introduced he is rock solid stable. No wobbling, stability, or coordination issues. I just purchased a hatchling bumblebee, and have noticed that he spins a bit. Its not as bad as my spider was though. Hopefully it will go away as well.

I have 3 spiders one has slight wobble when he smells food, the other has no visible wobble at all. The third is a hatchling and hasnt shown much yet.

I find it intersting that people jump on the nuerological bandwagon. If you have studied the spider behavior or have actually seen a snake with nuerological damage you would see the behaviors are quite different. I would avoid one that is spinning as that is a much more exaggerated form of the behavior.

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...L/IM000967.jpg
here she is!

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...L/IM000966.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...L/IM000969.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...L/IM000971.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...L/IM000967.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...L/IM000966.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...L/IM000969.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...L/IM000971.jpg

She Looks Pretty Good! You Think!

She is very nice, reduced and high white.

Rich

I have one Spider that has NO signs of wobble and one that is a "severe spinner". The 2 Spider offspring of the first are "normal in behavior". The second is a female that is likely to be ready to breed next season. Is it known whether the "syndrome" is totally random or is it passed directly from animal to offspring?

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Originally Posted by rbchesapeakeball

She is very nice, reduced and high white.

Rich

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RICH I WAS LOOKING FOR YOU AT THE SHOW BUT YOU WERENT AT YOU TABLE,LIKE THE PEID YOU HAD.

I'm getting one in aug and I'll be looking for one that doesn't have symptoms.

This is a very good topic. I am curious to hear what everyone has to say about the ethics of disclosure portion.

Hey Greg,

I saw you walk by as I was talking to someone, and then I didn't see you again, did you leave early.

Rich

IMHO, they all do it. I've sat and watched mine cruise around their tubs and they don't do the spinning or have any of the severe signs. The male has a slight head tilt and can get a little overstimulated if he's stressed. My female hasn't showed signs since she was a little worm and I've watched her for a good 2 hours before. She doesn't wobble if food is present but as I said, the male can get overexcited and go side to side a little.

Some of my normals get very excited during feeding time as well and will vibrate or wobble their heads before a strike.

But anyway. Just from observing spiders at shows from both big and small breeders, they all shows signs of it in some form or another. It may just be a slight head tilt when they're cruising around and nothing more, or it may be full blown spinning and they lay with their heads inverted on the tub floor.

For me, I believe it's completely genetic, and regardless of how outcrossed they are(and they REALLY are very outcrossed), it's not going to go away. It's just a genetic disorder that is linked to the spider gene. If you don't like it, don't buy spiders, simple as that(the exact reason why I won't buy Caramels, EVER).

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

For me, I believe it's completely genetic, and regardless of how outcrossed they are(and they REALLY are very outcrossed), it's not going to go away. It's just a genetic disorder that is linked to the spider gene. If you don't like it, don't buy spiders, simple as that(the exact reason why I won't buy Caramels, EVER).

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I second that. I checked my male spider over up and down when he was a hatchling...he had no inklings of it whatsoever. Then at about the 11 month mark he started twitching like he drank too much coffee. Now two months later, it has subsided. Will it pop up again? Probably, just something one has to deal with.

I also agree with your reasoning on the caramels, Becky.

JonV

I LOOKED AROUND AWHILE & WAS LOOKING FOR A FEMALE SPIDER & THAT WAS THE ONLY ONE THERE SO MY SON BOUGHT IT WITH HIS MONEY,HE'S THRILLED WITH IT BUT I DON'T LIKE THE WOBBLE,REALLY THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT WILL TELL YOU ABOUT THERE SPIDERS ARE THE ONES THAT HAVE NO WOBBLE AT ALL:confused:,

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Originally Posted by snakelady

I'm getting one in aug and I'll be looking for one that doesn't have symptoms.

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GOOD LUCK ITS HARD TO TELL.

If you think your spiders dont have it , just give it time. Audlts several years old can start showing symptoms. So all anyone can really say is that their spiders dont show symptoms YET.

How many people have 5 year old spiders that have never shown any symptoms?

As for ethics, i wonht work with them at all for this reason.

Nick

Whats wrong with caramels? I heard someone say they wouldnt work with them for similar reasons?

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Originally Posted by Nick Mutton

Its the equivilent to parkinsons disease in humans

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How do you figure? You do realize that Parkinsons is a little more than just shaking, right? giggity giggity...

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Originally Posted by LizardofOzz

Whats wrong with caramels? I heard someone say they wouldnt work with them for similar reasons?

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What's wrong with Caramels? If you want to produce snakes that have a great propensity towards spinal kinking, which also may or may not live due to the severity of said kinking, then go right ahead. I, myself, don't want to work with genes like that. Sure, everyone gets Caramels that don't have problems(or at least unnoticeable problems), but there's always that potential.

What if a not-so-honest seller hatches a caramel, who, say, has a small kink at the end of its tail. The breeder can easily amputate the end of the tail and sell it as a perfectly healthy, non-kinked Caramel.

I've been reading that some breeders have been experimenting with wetness levels and temperatures with Caramel clutches. For me, and this is just in my humble, honest opinion, if such great measures need to be taken to ensure the survival of this morph, and discourage spinal deformities in the snakes, then they really aren't meant to survive. Out in a burrow in Ghana, Togo or wherever, the eggs aren't going to get any special treatment, and any deformed hatchlings will easily get picked off or their deformities may hinder them in some way(constricting, eating, breathing). Also, how do we know that the kinked animals don't have internal deformities related to their spinal problems? I'm kind of attributing it to scoliosis, where the disease can get worse as the animal/person ages. Breathing becomes difficult, the chest cavity becomes compressed in severe cases, and the animal/person eventually suffocates from the disease progression.

OKAY! Too much soap box for me tonight ;) But that, in a nutshell, is why I choose to work with some morphs and not others. Maybe, quite a few years down the line, if Caramels become MUCH less inbred, and kinking is a thing of the past, I would feel comfortable about it. I'm okay with working with 1-2 Spiders because they all have the problem, and they are about as outcrossed as a morph can get(plus, I love Honeybees, Spinners, and Albino Spiders). Even with their problems, Spiders just seem slightly higher on the totem pole right now.

Wow Becky, that was a mouthful!

I think sometimes we forget that these are "mutations", put more bluntly, these are FREAKS OF NATURE we are talking about. Not all of these freaks or mutations were meant to survive in the wild...but we select for them because we find them "pretty".

JonV

For the record I am aware that there is a difference between the siper issue and human parkinsons disease, I made the comparison to help make my point. Nobody would intentionally try to make a child with parkinsons, why is it acceptable or even desirable to produce similar results in ball pythons?

On the Caramels, there is a second type of caramel that does not kink. This second line was actually the very first caramel lineage to be imported, and the line pre-dates almost every other ball morph. This lineage nearly was lost but they are now being produced in very small numbers. This line is acutally a little nicer looking on average and is NOT compatable with all the other caramel lines. So you can work with caramels at some point in the future without dealing with the kinking issue.

Nick

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Originally Posted by Nick Mutton

On the Caramels, there is a second type of caramel that does not kink. This second line was actually the very first caramel lineage to be imported, and the line pre-dates almost every other ball morph. This lineage nearly was lost but they are now being produced in very small numbers. This line is acutally a little nicer looking on average and is NOT compatable with all the other caramel lines. So you can work with caramels at some point in the future without dealing with the kinking issue.

Nick

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Do you know who's working with them off hand?

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Originally Posted by Nick Mutton

For the record I am aware that there is a difference between the siper issue and human parkinsons disease, I made the comparison to help make my point. Nobody would intentionally try to make a child with parkinsons, why is it acceptable or even desirable to produce similar results in ball pythons?

On the Caramels, there is a second type of caramel that does not kink. This second line was actually the very first caramel lineage to be imported, and the line pre-dates almost every other ball morph. This lineage nearly was lost but they are now being produced in very small numbers. This line is acutally a little nicer looking on average and is NOT compatable with all the other caramel lines. So you can work with caramels at some point in the future without dealing with the kinking issue.

Nick

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Interesting I'm curious to know who is working with them and how if they are being produced in such small number can they certain they don't have a kinking problem. It would be very exciting to learn more about this.

The line has been around since at least the early 90s, in fact this in was the original line that the "caramel " name was given to. The original WC founder provend very difficult to breed and it took many years to get the project going. in those years the other type of caramels started popping up in africa and very quickly became established. This original line was first owned by Ernie Wagner and the name "caramel" was first coined for it in about 1995.

I know the guy that breeds them , but he is a bit of a recluse and may not want his name mentioned.
GHI reptiles has one from this line pictured on their website if anyone wants to see it.

Nick

I think too much wobble would be when it affects eating or anything like that negatively! Otherwise i like the wobbling spiders it gives them some character!:gj:

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Originally Posted by Nick Mutton

Its the equivilent to parkinsons disease in humans

Nick

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It is? Please post some information to back this outlandish statement up. Parkinson's is a progressive degenerative disease of the central nervous system in humans. Please do explain how wobble-headedness in spiders is equivelant. :)

If a lot of spiders have the wobble do the bees have it? I have 1 male pastel and 1 female pastel and I am getting a male spider in a couple of weeks. I want to know what I can produce with this combo? I also have 4 normal females.

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Originally Posted by royal morphz

great point Nick just one problem i have 2 adult spiders that have never wobbled or spun so your theory that all spiders do it is a bit off

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same here. my spider has never 'wobbled' or spun. not even at feeding time.

i wonder how many of you have noticed the spiders never refuse a feed. and anything with spider in it will generally feed well.

Mine don't wobble at all.

Yea, my spider has a crazy feed response. She starts striking the air the second she smells the mouse. Once she has the mouse, she starts spinning around violently until her whole body is coiled up on the prey. I've never seen a BP move that fast!

Never noticed any problematic wobbles though...

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Originally Posted by kid_mustango02

Yea, my spider has a crazy feed response. She starts striking the air the second she smells the mouse. Once she has the mouse, she starts spinning around violently until her whole body is coiled up on the prey. I've never seen a BP move that fast!

Never noticed any problematic wobbles though...

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LOL, mine too. Mine actually came out of the tub striking in the air for the rat. They have a great feeding response, and are great breeders too. A breeders dream...

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Originally Posted by Nick Mutton

They all have it, and have always had it. It was a dirty and quite unethical secret for years.

I would like to see a discussion on the ethics of even breeding these animals. Is it not a little unethical to continue to breed animals that are nuerologically imparied? Nobody ever asks that question.

Its the equivilent to parkinsons disease in humans, why is it acceptable to intentionally produce animals with this condition , just because they are worth a couple hundred dollars?

Nick

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id have to dissagree....
ive seen adult spiders, with no wobble or spinning at all...
and many breeders are offering that if your spider you buy has little wobble... it will not get worst.

and if it does, you can get your money back, or partial if you keep the snake.

Ralph and 8 Ball have said all spiders do some weird stuff, even if it's not as noticable to the inexperienced ball python keeper, it's noticable to them.

akaangela,

You can produce bee's from that and they will inherit this trait. My bee was striking from upside down tonight to get his food, missed a few times and got it eventually. My spider male did the same thing, but hit it first time (maybe he's more experienced lol ~ 2years old). They're able to go back over their own body's more obviously, hence the upside down strike.

ive never noticed any sort of spin or wobble in any of my spiders. what they tend to do like my normals and other morphs is kinda cork screw. what i mean by this is when they are in their tubs the night before feeding. or sometimes while being held they'll bend their heads back and then sometimes make a loop and are then looking forward again. now my spiders tend to do it alot more often and alot more extreme than any of my other morphs or normals but i have seen them all exibit this behavior. i just say the fact spiders do things more extreme and feed in weird positions it just makes them special. lol

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Originally Posted by greghall

Wobble When Excited At Feeding Time & When Real Alert?im Seeing That Most All Spiders Do This,& Its Like A Dirty Little Secret Of The Morph.

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For me at least, any wobble is too much wobble. That is why I don't work with them. Sucks, the lesser spider is one of my favorite morphs and I would love to have one but I guess I don't need them all.