Are ASF's going to replace regular rats in the BP community?

I have yet to get into them, but they seem to be all the rage. I'm thinking about picking some up at the next expo I go to. I'm just wondering, is it a worthwhile investment? Here's my thinking. Sure they're great if you've got some stubborn feeders in you collection, or some hatchlings that just won't eat, but what happens if you decide to breed your bps, and you start selling babies that are feeding on ASF's? Wouldn't that discourage potential buyers that do not have access to ASF's? I'd love to start feeding all ASF's to my collection, but is that the direction you guys see this heading in, are we all eventually going to switch over? I know I'd love to.

Thoughts?

I don't think they'll replace regular rats but for me they have worked well in getting stubborn eaters to feed. They also smell far less than regular rats. As far as snakes getting hooked on them, I haven't seen it. Mine have gone back and forth from ASFs to regular rats to mice and back again.

Peter, this is a hard one for me and I'll be very honest in that I was VERY resistant to breeding and feeding ASF's for the longest time. My husband finally talked me into purchasing a trio last August and I have to admit they have become an invaluable part of our feeding program for the BP's. Especially when dealing with the rescues, the W/C's or the picky feeders - well it's hard to beat the results you get offering ASF's.

What Mike and I are doing at this point is deciding right up front which of our hatchlings are hold backs and which will be available. Those that are marked available get started on rat pinks. When we know who will be that snake's new owner we offer them the choice of what type of prey item they prefer (ASF or regular rat) and what type of feeding style (live or f/t) and then we make sure their snake is on that program before it is shipped out. All of our holdbacks have been started directly on to ASF's.

I would assume that due to the ease of raising ASF's we'll likely see them becoming more and more available as much as mice and regular rats are at the big f/t rodent suppliers.

As far as prey imprinting, we don't see it a lot but we do see it some. A few of our snakes will not take anything but ASF's but that isn't the majority and they might well be like that on any type of rodent offered.

Down the road, I intend to feed ASF to most if not all my adult however I will keep breeding mice and regular rats for my colubrids and hatchlings.

Ultimately I will always breed all kind of rodents just to answer the different needs of my snakes.

ASFR's are not the savior for BP breeders,there just A tool that can be effectively used and offer different options.

anything i plan on selling i start on mice or rats,i haven't seen imprinting on ASFR's but there seems to be a notion for most buyers that once on asfr's they stay there.

speaking of imprinting i have a big BP girl that was feeding on asfr's for some time and starting refusing meals,after the third refusal i thew in a reg. rat and she nailed it and has taken only reg. rats since,go figure! have fun !!

I don't believe they will replace the bigger rats because of their size. It takes a lot longer to produce ASF's that are the size equivalent to a small regular rats. It is however, undeniable that the popularity of the ASF's has grown tremendously within the past couple of years, despite those who said they wouldn't. Look at a few threads here from 2 years ago or more, you will find there were many skeptics about this rodent.

Yep I was one of them. :oops:

Guilty! I was a huge critic of them two, even just one year ago.

I've only fed one off so far, and that was to Murphy, who's will eat anything you offer him.

I've finally got a litter up to size to think about offering to more reluctant feeders to see if they respond better with them.

But just that one feeding has me nervous about refusals (ie, how the HECK will I get an uneaten ASF back OUT of the enclosure without it jumping out and escaping, especially in a tub set-up)!

I have spoken with a few larger breeders, and their feeling is that ASF's don't get large enough to get females up to weight fast enough. Some BP's will only eat one rodent at a feeding, no matter what size the rodent is. Being that ASF's are much smaller than rats the female's food intake will be less each year.

This is only the opinion of a few others, feel free to tear it apart :D

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Originally Posted by TooManyToys

I have spoken with a few larger breeders, and their feeling is that ASF's don't get large enough to get females up to weight fast enough. Some BP's will only eat one rodent at a feeding, no matter what size the rodent is. Being that ASF's are much smaller than rats the female's food intake will be less each year.

This is only the opinion of a few others, feel free to tear it apart :D

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A valid point, which would make sense to keep that female on rats if possible. If a female will take multiple ASF's rather than one appropriately sized rat, then I can see where the flip side of the coin would be advantageous.

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Originally Posted by Rapture

I don't believe they will replace the bigger rats because of their size. It takes a lot longer to produce ASF's that are the size equivalent to a small regular rats. It is however, undeniable that the popularity of the ASF's has grown tremendously within the past couple of years, despite those who said they wouldn't. Look at a few threads here from 2 years ago or more, you will find there were many skeptics about this rodent.

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That was my thought.
Because rats get so large, they could never replace rats for larger species. Even an large adult ball python would have a smaller meal as an ASF. They get big, but not that big.

They won't(probably) be the staple diet in my collection. I willtry and get a trio foe stubbern mice and picky feeders. I am catching the bug... LOL.

I do not believe ASF's are going to replace regular rats because I don't think the peto and petsmarts of the world are ever going to carry them.

However, in my house, they have already become the only thing I feed to my snakes. Kingsnake, cornsnake, balls... everyone eats ASF's. In my opinion nothing beats them for many reasons.

The food imprinting fears, while possible, are usually NOT the norm. If you have a picky or no eater that takes an ASF, sure, they may only take ASF's forever (although there are many that have been able to switch to reg rats in time) However, I believe based on my own experience with 15 ball pythons, If you have a normal good eater of normal rats, they will easily switch back and forth between ASF's and regular Rats.

Careful... Once you go ASF, you don't go back!

:gj:

They are a supplemental prey item. I ditched all my rats and mice and switched to ASF's because I was tired of the smell. If I need a mouse or rat I can buy one and I still use F/T.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

But just that one feeding has me nervous about refusals (ie, how the HECK will I get an uneaten ASF back OUT of the enclosure without it jumping out and escaping, especially in a tub set-up)!

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Wait for the asfr to come to the front of the tub.
Slide the tub open a little with one hand over the rodent so it can't jump up, and grab the tail near the tip with your other hand.
Lift it out quickly, and put it down wherever you want it.

As long as you don't hesitate, you can get it moved before it has time to react. If you stop with the rat dangling, it'll climb its tail and bite you, but things will go fine if you quickly pick it up and put it down.

I move 50+ adults between aquariums by hand when cleaning my big tank, and I never get bitten.

Robin, when I deal with moving the ASF's whether it's to or from a tub or for cleaning I keep a small kritter keeper open and ready. Just grab the rat as stated above, dump in the kritter keeper, snap it closed and no chance of it flipping up to grab at you or you dropping it and it gets loose. The other trick I use with the really jumpy ASF's is to keep a small empty plastic container (aka old margarine container) with lid in the snake room. Just smack the container down over the ASF then slip the lid under it and bingo...one hoppy, jumpy ASF safely caught and ready for transport back to the feeder enclosure. :)

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Originally Posted by mcavana

I do not believe ASF's are going to replace regular rats because I don't think the peto and petsmarts of the world are ever going to carry them.

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Maybe not, but the Pet Supplies "Plus" in Bolingbrook, IL does.

I was very surprised to see them, and think they probably came from a seller at my local Animal Expo since the pattern is the same as the ones I got there.
Each line seems to have its own distinct patterns based on what I've seen in my colonies and on this site.

I love these rats, the one thing I dislike is their growth rate. I'm going to have to keep a lot of them so I could have the right sizes every week. I just can't breed regular rats they stink way to much. A good example, when I use to breed rats most everyone who entered my home said they smelled an odor now there is no mention what so ever. Plus like most of you have said picky eaters love them. ASF's are it for me rats are way to expensive plus my collection is at 14 right now at the end of next season it will probably be 22 so thats why I'm super happy to have them.

They do take longer to reach certain feeding sized, Emilio, but once you get into the swing of breeding them you'll end up with litters popping out fast enough that you'll likely do fine for sizes in a few months. We're not there yet ourselves but we only had the one colony until recently. They breed so much once they get started though that I think we'll soon have no problems ourselves with size needs.

The lack of smell is a big plus for me too as well as being able to leave them as a colony and not fuss with moving males or seperating females. They really are so easy to manage, another big plus for my own time management.

Its interesting see some folks feeding JUST asf rats. I have been doing this also for the last couple years, pretty much since I since I started breeding them. When I have been asked I have always told people that asf rats are an alternative food source. We do have many great success stories on the forum of long-term non feeding reptiles, but "individual experiences may vary".

I agree that they won't replace rats. I started my little girls (ball pythons) on them and after the 2nd meal I switched them over to pinky rats and ALL of them nailed the ratlings. I like them because they won't ever out grow what I can feed to my balls. My rats quickly out grow what I am comfortable feeding. So I end up with 4 cages of adult HUGE rats and no one to feed them to.

I can see supplementing my rats with ASF's, but with the large variety of snakes I have, ASF's won't replace rats. I have several snakes that need larger prey items and multiple ASF's won't cut it.

One thing I'm wondering about is the potential for selective breeding to overcome the few drawbacks I'm reading about (slow growth, small adult size, hoppyness, and biting). Lab rats have been selectively bred for many many generations and captive ASF's are in their infancy. Maybe with our high feeder cull rate ball python breeders can work together to create improved lines. Like the breeder with the big tame male swap some babies with someone who always feeds the hoppiest babies off and keeps the easiest to catch ones for breeders against the natural tendency to do the opposite, etc.

Of course we'll need to be careful not to loose the good points they already have like high reproductive rate and low smell. But with agreement on what to work toward and careful observations (maybe weighing and recording for the fastest growing babies to keep for breeders) and swapping stock to combine and proliferate the best traits we might make some fairly quick progress.

A big impediments is shipping and quarantine but maybe doing swaps at regional shows and all maintaining high health standards can overcome these.

I have yet to produce my first litter of ASFs but I do have about 10 females ready to pop. They do smell a lot less and I think that is due largely to the fact that they barely drink any water (less pee = less smell). Although, I don't ever recall smelling a strong poop smell either.

I personally love the fact that they can tolerate some really high temps. Living in the deep south it gets quite hot to say the least. However, I highly doubt I will switch to them as my primary food source. Once my girls hit about 700 grams I don't want to have to throw multiple ASFs in there. Too much work. I like to throw one prey item in, move to the next tub and come back moments later to write down what they ate. Having do repeat this multiple times would be a poor use of my time.

As far as prey imprinting goes I don't think its a huge problem. I feed rats, mice, and hopefully ASFs soon. I do this throughout their life and I think variety is great. Now if I were to sell any offspring I would be certain it was eating either rats or mice and the buyer would be aware of which.

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Originally Posted by dacalio

I have yet to produce my first litter of ASFs but I do have about 10 females ready to pop. They do smell a lot less and I think that is due largely to the fact that they barely drink any water (less pee = less smell). Although, I don't ever recall smelling a strong poop smell either.

I personally love the fact that they can tolerate some really high temps. Living in the deep south it gets quite hot to say the least. However, I highly doubt I will switch to them as my primary food source. Once my girls hit about 700 grams I don't want to have to throw multiple ASFs in there. Too much work. I like to throw one prey item in, move to the next tub and come back moments later to write down what they ate. Having do repeat this multiple times would be a poor use of my time.

As far as prey imprinting goes I don't think its a huge problem. I feed rats, mice, and hopefully ASFs soon. I do this throughout their life and I think variety is great. Now if I were to sell any offspring I would be certain it was eating either rats or mice and the buyer would be aware of which.

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Asfs get as large as a small rat...I would be VERY surprised if she takes more than one.

They do but how long does it take them to get there? I don't want to keep tons and tons of ASFs in grow out tubs. If you have ever studied the economics behind farming animals it is not efficient to raise animals to adulthood to slaughter. All those chickens in the store are juveniles. The meat to feed ratio takes a nose dive after some point.

From what I understand there is a good chance they could start fighting when kept in large groups to adulthood. Although, I am new to them so I have yet to discover this on my own.

Also, my 1500-2000 gram girls like a bit larger than small rats and could easily down 2 or 3 adult ASFs.

I have been using them for close to 3 years with my colubrids and don't have any major issues, they switch back and forth well.

During the summer it is nice to have something that produces so well, the regular rats just don't like the summer so I supplement with them and honestly I hate the smell from mice so I only keep one colony going.

I do however have 2 bp's that will not come off of them, they were picky sporadic feeders to begin with so it wasn't shocking to me that they will not go back...

Nice to have around for crappy feeding hatchlings when needed but I don't see my diamond or bloods settling in for a meal of 20 sub-adult ASF's.

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Originally Posted by dacalio

They do but how long does it take them to get there? I don't want to keep tons and tons of ASFs in grow out tubs. If you have ever studied the economics behind farming animals it is not efficient to raise animals to adulthood to slaughter. All those chickens in the store are juveniles. The meat to feed ratio takes a nose dive after some point.

From what I understand there is a good chance they could start fighting when kept in large groups to adulthood. Although, I am new to them so I have yet to discover this on my own.

Also, my 1500-2000 gram girls like a bit larger than small rats and could easily down 2 or 3 adult ASFs.

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From my colony, it has taken a month after weaning for males to reach a very good size comparable to regular rats. I think all my males are now about 90 grams. The females are much smaller, and I dont expect them to get large until they've had their first litter.

Hey Chandler? how well do your ASFs get along when housed in grow out tubs?

Thanks, David

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Originally Posted by dacalio

Hey Chandler? how well do your ASFs get along when housed in grow out tubs?

Thanks, David

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If mine is any measure, they have all been doing fine in grow out tubs. I try to keep it light, so I have 4 grow up tubs for 2 breeder groups. The boys all get along great, females are a little more high strung, but so far they are happy little ratties.

Cool, thanks Connie. Although I was thinking of a putting them in large tubs (cement mixing tubs) but with a bunch in there. Not sure how it will work out.

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Originally Posted by dacalio

Hey Chandler? how well do your ASFs get along when housed in grow out tubs?

Thanks, David

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They fight, hard to get them not to but very rarely do they kill each other. I found it easier just to leave them with the parents and grow them out that way. Granted they don't get as big as they could if I did separate them out but it really doesn't take as long to get them a little bigger then an adult mouse which is ultimately what I shoot for these days. I tried to grow them out to small/med rats but they take to long and then it isn't time and cost effective for the bp's.

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Originally Posted by Chandler reptiles

They fight, hard to get them not to but very rarely do they kill each other. I found it easier just to leave them with the parents and grow them out that way. Granted they don't get as big as they could if I did separate them out but it really doesn't take as long to get them a little bigger then an adult mouse which is ultimately what I shoot for these days. I tried to grow them out to small/med rats but they take to long and then it isn't time and cost effective for the bp's.

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Good information, thanks man.

Funny but I rarely have any fighting in my ASF colonies. The only time I've seen it is when an unfamiliar ASF is put in with a different colony or a bit of dominance scuffling by the females.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Funny but I rarely have any fighting in my ASF colonies. The only time I've seen it is when an unfamiliar ASF is put in with a different colony or a bit of dominance scuffling by the females.

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Yea, me neither Joanna. I've got 3 different sizes of ASF's all hanging out in my grow up tubs, they all get mixed up on cleaning day, and I have never noticed any aggression in any of the tubs besides small hierarchy sorting. (mainly females, boys are so chillax)

I figure how many you have in each tub and how much room they have plays a huge role in population stability.

I agree Connie. We try to not overcrowd them, we provide a wheel, a hide box (just recycled cardboard food boxes of all sorts), toilet and papertowel tubes to dash into if there is trouble, things to knaw on - that sort of stuff. Giving them that space and those options to occupy their time or avoid fights seems to work and nothing I use costs me much of anything. Most of it's just recycled stuff from around my home. :)

I don't think ASFs will replace trad rats, but I know my "kids" love to munch them. and they're really easy to breed and raise....drop a colony in a 20 gal tank w/ aspen and a water bottle...a food bowl...and a hide and you're off.....candles and Barry White helps too

I breed asf's by the hundreds and i still feed my snakes regular rats along with the soft furs every month my colony produces and average of 300 babies, and what i do is buy small domestic rats and throw them in one week and next i use asf's and keep rotating them. so this way they eat both, my asf rats to me are like a nice little vitamin rich capsule filled with fiber, fat, calcium, and protein, do to the diets of my rats. And as long as you mix it up a little then you should be ok. and as for baby balls when they hatch feed them domestic rat pup and a couple days later a asf rat hopper and if they take both your in the clear.. then try domestic rat again and like i said mix it up... but i have info that many pet stores are becoming interested in the asf for the reason of smell i have 2 pet stores im may be selling to in the near future that asked me about them and i explained that they are odorless and that made them want to buy them and sell them in their stores as a substitute for domestic rats.. so i explained that that would be a bad idea but i would still sell him the rats but we will see..

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Originally Posted by masta_ballZ

I breed asf's by the hundreds and i still feed my snakes regular rats along with the soft furs every month my colony produces and average of 300 babies, and what i do is buy small domestic rats and throw them in one week and next i use asf's and keep rotating them. so this way they eat both, my asf rats to me are like a nice little vitamin rich capsule filled with fiber, fat, calcium, and protein, do to the diets of my rats. And as long as you mix it up a little then you should be ok. and as for baby balls when they hatch feed them domestic rat pup and a couple days later a asf rat hopper and if they take both your in the clear.. then try domestic rat again and like i said mix it up... but i have info that many pet stores are becoming interested in the asf for the reason of smell i have 2 pet stores im may be selling to in the near future that asked me about them and i explained that they are odorless and that made them want to buy them and sell them in their stores as a substitute for domestic rats.. so i explained that that would be a bad idea but i would still sell him the rats but we will see..

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So by what you said above, you are producing 300 ASF's a month, and that is only half of your feeders, cause you feed normal rats every other week. That is 600 rodents per month. so how many snakes do you have? 150? That is amazing. How bout you post a pic of your incredible facilites! would love to see them!

thats no problem, i will soon. It will be on my site, yes i produce lots of asfs and its a good thing my snakes eat like 4-5 every other week, I have 30 snakes, so every other week on averages im feeding out about 150-200 rats, and the rest i usually either trade off for reptile supplies. I also supply 4 of my cousins with about 20 rats each every 2 weeks so i constantly have a rats being born then i trade, sell, and give to my cousins so i dont get over loaded, and if i do and have before i take them and co2 them and freeze them.

So my ASF breeding has been going on for about 2.5 months. After a slow start I now have them producing regularly. The downside is how slowly they grow. I have 4 groups of 1.3 and 1 group of 1.5 . I have a tub full of weans that seems to be the same size week after week. The upside is that they have worked to get some picky feeders going again. It's still a work in progress but at this point I can't say that they could ever replace rats for me.

I agree, my 1st litter was born on July 5th and last night was the 1st night I had some that were small rat size. On the upside my het pied female who had stopped eating for months has eaten ASFs consistently for a couple months now.

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Originally Posted by FIREball

I agree, my 1st litter was born on July 5th and last night was the 1st night I had some that were small rat size. On the upside my het pied female who had stopped eating for months has eaten ASFs consistently for a couple months now.

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You had 1.5 month old ASFs up to small rat size!? My 1.5 month olds are maybe rat pup size at most. They just don't grow.

Yeah some grow faster thats for sure. I have a set that are 4 weeks old and they are tiny, small mouse size.

If I had a huge room that I could devote to my own rodents I would just breed ASFs but I dont so I will just stick to feeding some the ASFs and buy regular rats for the others.

ok people want them to grow faster, use cuddle bone, its healthy for them and helps with their growth. and believe me feed them veggies, lettuce and carrots.. ill be getting my video up soon and ill show you how i take care of them but gotta wait till friday or saturday thats cleaning days for me for the rats... ok

I have been breeding ASF rats for about six years now, and use them as just an additional food source to the mice and rats that I also breed for the snakes. Some of the snakes will go from eating mice to eating rat weaners, some won't - so I use ASF rats as an intermediary, and eventually onto rats.
I feed a 50/50 mix of rabbit food and wild bird seed, supplemented with a 'stir fry' and salad mix once per week.
Feeders are around the 60 - 70 gramme mark when fed to the snakes, with ex-breeders reaching 120 - 130 grammes.