Loud noise and convulsions

Hi,

last night I (and my step-dad who slept in the other side of our house) woke up when my 2-years-old ball python was having a very loud noise: it sounded like farting (but very very loud, even my dad couldn't do that), but I'm not sure if it came from her mouth or from intestines. She was also having convulsions at the same time and her mouth was open... This lasted about 10 seconds and it happened two times. In the second time there came out a little amount of poop, which was pretty wet.

In the morning I found this from her wetbox, I don't know if it's from her mouth or anal.

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/4769/mmmkx7.jpg

What is going on? :(

That pic reminds me of one from a thread quite a few months ago. If I remember correctly, it turned out to be tape worms. I'll try to find the link for you.

Those are worms...

You need to go to a vet NOW.

Found it faster than I expected!

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=53025

Tapeworms, and you need to see a vet for this. Keep the sample and take it in.

Of course I go if I have to, but can't I just deworm her myself? I have bought the anthelmintic (fenbendazole) already.

Are you willing to take responsibility if you accidentally overdose her and kill her?

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Originally Posted by Andoneus

Of course I go if I have to, but can't I just deworm her myself? I have bought the anthelmintic (fenbendazole) already.

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Leave that to the vet typically the only reason a tape worm detaches is due to something else irritating it. So there may be more going on with that animal than you think.

I agree with the others saying take her to the vet. The animal in the thread I posted ended up having 3 different parasites and needed 2 medicines to get rid of them. At least as far as I've gotten with skimming that thread to refresh my memory, that is what has happened.

Here is a link to the post where the owner relays what the vet said:
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...1&postcount=38

Worms!!! :O
I would take her to the vet right away. Good luck!!

Ok, so I take her to the vet tomorrow. But I didn't save that stuff, was this a bad mistake? :(

I guess I'd take in the picture that you took :oops:
...or get it out of the trash!

Usually when you have something like that, it is a good idea to put it in a ziploc bag or other sealed container in your fridge. Not freezer. Then get it to the vet ASAP for testing, before it can degrade.

Since you don't have it anymore, you can still bring the photo to the vet. It is better than nothing. I'd also consider bringing the photo from the other thread, so the vet can compare the 2, knowing the diagnosis on the other one was tapeworm. Just make sure your vet understands which one is from your animal!

EDIT: I agree with McKinsey's suggestion to get it out of the trash if possible.

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Originally Posted by kc261

I agree with McKinsey's suggestion to get it out of the trash if possible.

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I threw it to the toilet.

I'm so scared... She'll be alright, won't she? :(

She will be fine as long as you take her to a qualified Veterinarian who can help diagnose and treat the problem SOON.

breathe.... :P

Parasites are bad, but as a general rule it takes a really long time for them to get to the point of being fatal... because it is bad for the parasite when their host dies! So in most cases, that leaves plenty of time to get it treated.

Some parasites are hard to treat safely (heartworms in dogs is one example). But based on maybe 3 or 4 people talking about their experiences with it that I've read in forums, not personal experience, tapeworms in snakes aren't too hard to treat.

I'd be more worried about what else your snake has that caused the tapeworm to get expelled. But your vet should be able to figure that out and treat it too.

Yes, I reserve the time for the best herp-vet of my country tomorrow. But I don't have any samples... Might she still be able to find out the problems somehow..? Not..? :/

Now I'm starting to think that she have had those worms in her body for her whole lifetime.. Because once or twice (about a year ago) I've seen one of those worms on her poop, but I just haven't paid much attention, because I've thought it's just the white urine they have sometimes. :(

And about those noises and convulsions, can tapeworms cause that, or is that a sign of something worse?

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Originally Posted by kc261

breathe.... :P

Parasites are bad, but as a general rule it takes a really long time for them to get to the point of being fatal... because it is bad for the parasite when their host dies! So in most cases, that leaves plenty of time to get it treated.

Some parasites are hard to treat safely (heartworms in dogs is one example). But based on maybe 3 or 4 people talking about their experiences with it that I've read in forums, not personal experience, tapeworms in snakes aren't too hard to treat.

I'd be more worried about what else your snake has that caused the tapeworm to get expelled. But your vet should be able to figure that out and treat it too.

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:gj:

I had an animal for a year or better and she ate and ate but never did get much bigger. She presented me with the same thing and after a couple of rounds of treatment she cleared up and eats like a champ and is now breeder weight.

They are bad but if treated they can be dealt with.

Ahh, yes the lovely tapeworm. Your vet should be able to diagnose the tapeworm even without having the worm that was expelled. They should be able to get a fecal sample from the snake which will confirm the tapeworm as well as show any other parasites the snake might have.

You will be given at least one medication (maybe more if there are different parasites found) which you can administer to your snake orally to get rid of the worms. It is a good idea to have another fecal done when the treatment is finished to make sure that all of the parasites are gone.

If there are other animals in your collection you should quarantine this snake from them until it is clean. You may also consider having fecals done on your other animals as well to make sure they do not have any parasites.

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Originally Posted by mlededee

They should be able to get a fecal sample from the snake.

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Well, I don't have her poop either... :(

They should be able to do a Cloacal swab to get a sample.

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Originally Posted by Andoneus

Well, I don't have her poop either... :(

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

They should be able to do a Cloacal swab to get a sample.

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Exactly--the vet should be able to get some fecal matter from her or they can do a wash or swab in order to get something to test.

Just an FYI, fenbendazole will NOT kill tapeworms. The only thing that I am aware of that gets rid of tapes is Drontal/Droncit(praziquantel). Your vet will have it and will be able to more accurately dose your snake.

goodluck with your snake... that is scary.

take her to the vet and let us know how it goes!

update?

Couldn't contact to the best herp-vet... I'll try to contact her today, and if I don't get her, I'll find another vet tomorrow. It's just so that here in Finland is only one veterinarian who REALLY knows about reptiles. :/

Ok, so it's tomorrow at 17.30 :) Thank god she's not on holiday or something.

glad to see you got a hold of someone! good luck again, yer snake is in my prayers :)

FYI Fenbendazole does kill tapeworms. But its best to get her to the vet anyways. Let us know how everything goes when you get back.

Wow that looks exactly like the one thread a few months ago. Get her to a vet and I hope all goes well.

Where does it say fenbendazole kills tapes? You're quite incorrect on that. ONLY praziquantel kills tapeworms... :colbert:

It says it on a package of fenbendazole.

I'm an RVT and NEVER in my years of experience have I had a vet tell me to treat an animal for tapeworms with Panacur. It's always Praziquantel(Droncit or Drontal Plus).

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

I'm an RVT and NEVER in my years of experience have I had a vet tell me to treat an animal for tapeworms with Panacur. It's always Praziquantel(Droncit or Drontal Plus).

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Sorry Amanda but I can quote that.
I know it may be different, but I remember my vet talking about how tapeworms only had one type of medication for a cure.

It was in discussion about a dog though. I donno, I would assume it was slightly similar.

Edit:
Also Wikipedia's only mention on treatment in this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taenia_(tapeworm)

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Treatment

Treatment with Praziquantel (PZQ) has been approved by the FDA and is quite effective.

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OP: Good luck on getting that treated! Your ball will feel much better without it.

In this thread, mledeedee said she got panacur for the tapeworms.

My snake was treated with both panacur and albon (she had 3 different types of parasites). That combination did take care of the parasites as I have had several fecals done on her since the treatment and she is now clean, however I would still recommend Praziquantel for the treatement of tapeworms as it is proven effective and most commonly used for them.

So...

My vet didn't take any samples, I just told her how things are and about that situation with mldeedees snake, and she just gave her a portion of mix of two anthelmintics. She said it will kill all the internal parasites. And after two week I have to renew the medication.

But I dunno... maybe after a month or something I'll bring some fecals to the local lab for research, just for make sure they're all gone : P

Ok now I've been reading about that horrible Cryptosporidiosis, and I'm wondering how common is that in ball pythons?

I've bought my ball from the pet shop which SHOULD be dependable unlike many other pet shops. They said my ball is captive-born, but I'm really starting to doubt it. :(

And, how fresh should the fecal sample be? I mean I think it's not very easy to find the fresh poo exactly after making it, especially when my substrate is peat - wouldn't like to stress her right now by changing it, but I think I have to?

I'd definitely take a fecal sample in after the treatment is over just to be sure.

If the pet shop said "captive born" they may have meant "captive hatched" which is not the same as "captive bred". I'm not sure which parasites can be passed from mother to baby through the egg, but I've read it is possible with at least some of them.

Also about that peat substrate. I'd get rid of it while the animal is being treated and until it has tested clean of parasites. Use newspaper or paper towels. By the time it is time to switch back, you'll likely have decided you like how easy it is to clean the enclosure and you'll never go back! :)

At the very least, it is a MUST to change it completely, not just spot cleaning, until you are sure the snake is parasite free.

Ok well I'll change it as soon as possible.

I mean they said it's captive-bred (CB). I just didn't remember that the B means bred, not birth. :P

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By the time it is time to switch back, you'll likely have decided you like how easy it is to clean the enclosure and you'll never go back!

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I definately won't, it looks ugly and unnatural. :D

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Originally Posted by Andoneus

But I dunno... maybe after a month or something I'll bring some fecals to the local lab for research, just for make sure they're all gone : P

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It's always wise to do a follow-up to make sure the treatment was fully effective so yes I'd recommend a fecal float after the meds are all done. Especially since you weren't able to do one at this point, it would be wise to get one done just to be sure the snake is clear of internal parasites post-treatment.

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Originally Posted by Andoneus

And, how fresh should the fecal sample be? I mean I think it's not very easy to find the fresh poo exactly after making it, especially when my substrate is peat - wouldn't like to stress her right now by changing it, but I think I have to?

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While papertowels as a substrate might not be appealing to you, the point is your snake's health and well being. The snake is/was passing internal worms. You will need to get a fecal sample. You need to be able to see clearly anything that comes out of that snake. The substrate you are using isn't going to allow you to see that or perhaps see a fresh defecation so you can immediately collect it.

To collect a sample, simply remove it from the enclosure, place it in a small ziploc storage bag, double bag it, pop it in the fridge (I always put mine in another plastic container marked with the date I took the sample and the snake's name and ID#), then take it to the vet's clinic as soon as you can. Do not freeze samples, only refridgerate them. Some vet clinics can do the float while you wait, others will phone you later with the results.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

To collect a sample, simply remove it from the enclosure, place it in a small ziploc storage bag, double bag it, pop it in the fridge (I always put mine in another plastic container marked with the date I took the sample and the snake's name and ID#), then take it to the vet's clinic as soon as you can. Do not freeze samples, only refridgerate them. Some vet clinics can do the float while you wait, others will phone you later with the results.

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Are you sure it's that simple, especially when I want to check it for the cryptosporides too? 'Cause there is three opinions in the form which is supposed to deliver with the sample (I'm trying to translate them from Finnish so don't laugh! ;)): Recognizing parasites, recognizing the parasite eggs, recognizing giardia/cryptosporides from the formalinized fecal. And, there is also a bacterial investigation, but I'd have to write there, what for that is. Any ideas which ones I'm supposed to choose? :P

I wouldn't be so worried if my garter snake hadn't regurgitate her last meal. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Andoneus

Are you sure it's that simple, especially when I want to check it for the cryptosporides too? 'Cause there is three opinions in the form which is supposed to deliver with the sample (I'm trying to translate them from Finnish so don't laugh! ;)): Recognizing parasites, recognizing the parasite eggs, recognizing giardia/cryptosporides from the formalinized fecal. And, there is also a bacterial investigation, but I'd have to write there, what for that is. Any ideas which ones I'm supposed to choose? :P

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If you have questions about the form your vet gave you or what method of sample taking they want then you'd have to phone them I would think.

The form is not from vet, it's from the groceries investigation center (translation.. o_O), and they do these kind of tests here. But I'll ask that form them, too.

I guess basically what I mean (not knowing how things work in your country) is contact whoever issued the form and will do the tests on the sample and get clarification on your questions about the form and how they want the sample taken. That's probably the best way so that you do everything to their specifications.

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Originally Posted by kc261

By the time it is time to switch back, you'll likely have decided you like how easy it is to clean the enclosure and you'll never go back! :)

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Originally Posted by Andoneus

I definately won't, it looks ugly and unnatural. :D

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Haha! That's what I said too, once upon a time. :P

Right :D

But anyway if it was a cryptosporidium, wouldn't she regurgitate and everything? She has never regurgitated expect that pile of worms, and I'm not even sure if it came from bottom or mouth. She also haven't lost weight at all, even she didn't eat well for six months, but that was only because I was trying to change her diet from mice to rats, while mice were too small for her and she didn't want to eat rats or many mice at once. But now she has been eating rats well for a month.

*just trying to ease my mind*

And by the way, I have to apologize my english. But I think you understand, even something, from my posts. : D

Damn does she EVER drop the kids off at the pool :O She ate over three weeks ago after her previous poop and once after it. I just took a sample of my garter snake to the lab to make sure she doesn't have any parasites. They can find all the other parasites expect giardia and cryptosporidiums but I don't think they have them. My ball python is over two yrs old, she's been fasting pretty much but haven't lost weight at all even she have has at least those tapeworms. And she has never regurgitated, so probably not crypto? About that giardia I know nothing about.

So I got the test results and guess what, NO PARASITES! :) I guess that means she only had those nasty worms. Can there be their eggs somewhere? :O