I am very concerned about this hatchling?!

Hi all.

I have had nothing but good snake moments that last two days... I was actually composing a pic thread when I found this.

This is my pastel female, she is pipping, but is not out of the egg. As you can see from the pics, she has her umbilicus around her midsection.

I saw it in this pic I had taken of all 4 babes left to pip.

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...oflastfour.jpg

So I went back and popped her out of the egg (and popped her - so yes, a girl) and found this. The cord is wrapped around her stomach, and there is no way to untangle it. I looks like it got tangled early on and she grew around it?

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...lhatchling.jpg

I apologize, I have not popped any of them out of their eggs, so this may be normal, but I really do not think it is.

I guess my concern is whether that "knot" is too tight? Or will she be able to still absorb?

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...hatchling1.jpg

Is this just umbilicus? Or do I have a snake that has her organs outside of her body? I know I have seen these huge looking things on the last two that hatched out, but like I said... I never saw anything that was going on in the egg so I do not know how normal this may or may not be.

Is there anything I can do to assist her?

I am really concerned about her.

Despite feeling incredibly deflated, I am open to very upfront and honest critiques based on experience.

Many thanks in advance.
Bruce

And yes, she is back in her egg resting comfortably, I have placed her back in the incubator with her siblings.

bruce

Wow! I'd be concerned too...I hope someone who has experienced this before can chime in and offer some advice. :(

Unfortunately there is no way to untangle the umbilical cord when it is like that. The only thing you can do is cut it off about 1/2 inch from the belly Once you cut it tie off close to the belly with dental floss.

If the baby has ok weight just leave her and let her shed.

If she is very thin then you can mix up the yoke from a chicken egg and load it into a syringe. Take a fairly large needle (16-18 gage) and send it up the umbilical cord and inject it into the snake (you have to do it right to get it into the right spot). Once you fill up her belly you can tie off the umbilical cord to keep all that yoke inside of her. I don't recommend doing this unless you feel confident doing it. It's easier than you think if you go slow.

Good luck,
Corey

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Corey Woods

Unfortunately there is no way to untangle the umbilical cord when it is like that. The only thing you can do is cut it off about 1/2 inch from the belly Once you cut it tie off close to the belly with dental floss.

If the baby has ok weight just leave her and let her shed.

If she is very thin then you can mix up the yoke from a chicken egg and load it into a syringe. Take a fairly large needle (16-18 gage) and send it up the umbilical cord and inject it into the snake (you have to do it right to get it into the right spot). Once you fill up her belly you can tie off the umbilical cord to keep all that yoke inside of her. I don't recommend doing this unless you feel confident doing it. It's easier than you think if you go slow.

Good luck,
Corey

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:gj:

Thanks Corey, I really appreciate the input.

I would be comfortable doing that (the syringe)... just curious what weight I would be looking at.

I am estimating that she is around 50-55g. She is thin, but not the worst I have seen.

bruce

Wow good luck with that baby. She is very pretty and I hope she makes it.

I found a small syringe... I cut the cord, and finding the entrance was really quite easy.

I gave her two shots... I injected the yolk and tied off the cord, then I cut further up, made the second injectin and tied off the cord again.

The second one was much harder as there was less cord... but I put the knot of dental floss around the cord, then inserted the syringe... pulled the floss snugly, injected the yolk and then as I was pulling the syringe out I had my partner tighten it so that nothing leaked out.

So two 6cc shots... her final weight is 38g... not super promising... but I do think it could be worse?

I feel OK about it think it went actually quite smooth. I am more concerned about her final weight... and you can tell it was quite stressful for her.

But now I will just leave her be and hope (pray) for a good outcome.

Thanks again,
Bruce

And... I hate to say... but if anyone else wants to take a second and a visualize a little pastel BP taking her first hopper... I would appreciate it.

:please:

Bruce

I almost did not have time... but need to take a few beers and decompress, so here are the pics. Pretty straightforward stuff. :)

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...enacutting.jpg

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...fujimonkey.jpg

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...album/xena.jpg

After I had popped her out of the egg, she would not stay in it, so I figured that now was as good a time as any.

Fingers crossed that she is in good shape till her shed.

Bruce

Great job! Shes very nice looking. Keep her moist and I'm sure she'll be OK!

Thx Shawn... I sure hope so. I hatched out 1.1 pastels in this clutch and her dad is a looker.

Even if she was a normal I would want the same outcome, but I do hope that she'll be ok.

Bruce

Hope all goes good! She is one nice pastel.

Sounds like you did a great job! Hopefully everything will turn out well for that little girl!

wow. i mean wow. gorgeous little snake, thank god that you had her and it wasn't someone who would just cull her and not go to any trouble to help that littl beauty. *applause* awesome. im glad that she is okay too! keeping my fingers crossed that she'll eat a hopper soon!!!

Bruce, positive thoughts for the wee one coming your way! She actually looks pretty darn good! Thank you to Cory too for sharing his advice - it's the great thing about this site, those with more experience helping those of us experiencing our firsts!:gj:

congrats, well done and good luck!!

shes beautiful, good job helping her out. she looks great

Wow. Interesting post. Good job on taking care of that baby. :gj:

Bruce you did great, and knowing how good of a keeper you are I have no doubt this little one will do just fine.

I hope everything goes well!
Shes BEAUTIFUL! :gj:

WOW, she's a little fighter, huge congrats to you Bruce. I'm pulling for ya

Good luck with her, she is a real nice looking BP. :gj:

Just a quick update.

I am at work so it will be short (or I would address everyone individually and thank you) :gj: ... and this is going to be the longest ten hours till I get home again.

I was not sure whether to put her back in the incubator, but decided to set her up in her tupperware container. So she is in the rack on wet paper towel.

She is really quite weak and exhausted looking. But I am hoping that 10 hours to just sit and relax will be a good thing for her.

I decompressed over the phone this morning, and I am feeling better regarding her weight. I failed to mention that I mixed in some of the fat from her LUMP (I should know the name of that thing) in with the yolk that I injected her with. So hopefully she got enough fat and protein to make a good first meal.

Injecting her and feeling her belly swell... now that was bizarre, same with feeling the syringe going in and knowing is was actually inside her and not just leading to the umbilicus.

I love these experiences... despite the stress/risk. Each time something like this happens I learn just a bit more about how to deal with my snakes, and every current and future snake benefits.

Next time I would have left more umbilicus, so that I would have had more leeway. But I cut it before I realized the absolute logistics of what I would be doing.

Also, next time (I am sure there will be a next time - it is just a numbers game) I will be more streamlined in the approach so that will be good.

Thanks for looking, listening and commenting!

Bruce

Great job Bruce my positive thoughts and successful visualizations are behind your efforts:gj:

what a great story... what great pics...

i for one will be making a mental note of your story if ever needed for the future...

thank you

Very educational post, thank you for sharing!:gj:

Sending thoughts of a successful outcome your way.:please:

Bruce, thank you for sharing this experience (and to Corey for jumping right in with great wisdom to share with you). We're all learning along with you. My prayers, good wishes and best of thoughts for this little beauty. You did good, Bruce, real good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Loft Lizard

I failed to mention that I mixed in some of the fat from her LUMP (I should know the name of that thing) in with the yolk that I injected her with. So hopefully she got enough fat and protein to make a good first meal.

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I think that is the yolk from her egg? I could be totally wrong, but that is what I thought.

I also think taking some of it was a good idea, because they are supposed to absorb it, so it seems like it would be exactly what she needed. Again, I don't actually know this.

Thank you for sharing this story! I'll keep that image in my mind of her taking her first meal! :gj: It is kind of scary how little she is and how much of her lump/yolk thing she was unable to absorb, but unless I remember the numbers wrong, I've seen stories of smaller hatchlings (twins) that did just fine. Please keep us updated!

Looks like you did a great job. Thanks for sharing the experience it was very imformative. I'm definitely sending my positive vibes your way, she's gorgeous and good luck.

I'm glad everything went well! Keep us updated!

She's a gorgeous snake.

I lost her... hard belly... my own fault for popping her out of her egg to check her condition.

I thought she was ready to come out, but I was wrong.

I feel just horrible right now. :(

Bruce

I do have a few pics that may help (I'll go for something educational at this point)... but I am not up to posting them right now. It will either tomorrow or the next day.

But all her sibs are doing great. Just one left to exit the egg.

1.0 pastel. 0.0.1 normal and 0.3 normals

:( Sorry to hear about your loss.

Oh man, sorry about that... :tears:

Bruce don't kick yourself hon. It's not your fault or her fault or anything other than nature being nature I think. Some young creatures are just not meant to make it. I don't think in striving to help her you likely did anything to damage her anymore than she was already damaged by developing in that manner.

Hon, it's like saying a human baby lost due to a cord tangle is the momma's fault. The sad fact is even with all our technical know how for human births, our own babies are sometimes lost to birthing or developmental issues.

None of this is much comfort, I know but just don't be hard on yourself, Bruce. Breeding any animal is going to mean losing some of them but if we've done the best we can do, then we really cannot do more than that. You have my phone number, my friend, and you know you can call anytime.

Thanks all...

And for Jo.

Yeah... *sigh*... I know. But you know me. I need to trace all the steps and see where I may have screwed up with her, but fortuneately along with that I like to find out the odds of what chances her situation would have afforded her.

Have talked to a few people that have been very generous with their feedback and experience (one of the many reasons I love snake people).

Keep in mind these are all *maybes*

Chances are if had not cut the egg, she would not have exited. She may have simply expired in the egg.

With her cord wrapped the way it was she was not absorbing her yolk, so leaving it would have resulted in her possibly starving to death.

So as I understand it... her yolk would not have disengaged from the sides of the egg (it was still attached when I popped her out) which is what resulted in the hard belly.

As far as removing the hard yolk from her abdomen. This probably did kill her. Too much stress for a young babe. But only a few with hard belly make it.

And honestly, from looking at her, I can say that I did not feel she was going to make it... and the amount of hard yolk in her belly was huge.

My best chances would have been to tie off the umbilicus while she was still in the egg and hope for the best.

Many do try and untangle gently while they are in the egg. The way she was sitting in the egg, I can say that I would not have been able to untangle or see the knot as it was tangled beneath her... so either way it was not good.

It wasn't until I popped her out that I could really see how bad it was... and again, that was my bad as I did think she was ready to come out. Definitely a mistake I will never make again.

If this happens again I will be far more equipped, and ultimately I hope the documenting of this proves of some use to others. I think we often hear of snakes not making it, but we do not hear the "whys"... I like hearing why.

BUT that all being said... I have some amazing baby snakes to tend to and enjoy. So far all of them are looking amazing... one of the girls jabbed at me last night. :)

And I wanted to take a sec and thank Corey, Kara, Deb, Marc, and Jo for the time spent chatting, emailing, etc. I really appreciate it.

Bruce

And for the record... if anyone can bring any experience to the discussion and offer criticisms and potential interventions I am more than welcome to hearing them.

Bruce

Bruce we all know this comes with breeding animals. Dont kick yourself too hard. There is only so much you can do and you did alot. There will be better days ahead.

I'm so sorry to hear you lost her. Keep your chin up, you cared a lot and you did what you could do - :gj:

I think that your reflection and sharing of this experience will help you and all of us new breeders, Bruce. Sometimes it's so easy to talk about the victories but really hard to talk about the times it just didn't work out all that well.

I do know you and I know you'll be soul searching like mad to make sure there was nothing else you could have done. I don't know if there was, I'm not experienced enough myself to say but I do know this....you did all you could do and that's the best any of us can ever do.

Go spend time with the snappy little hatchlings. That'll raise you up. Most of mine are having quite a lot of fun playing "hey who can tag Jo next!" :)

Man thats a bummer she really was a looker :(. Don't feel too bad though Like others said its just nature. It no ones fault especially not yours . :hug:

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...chcontents.jpg

Last pic for this thread... the only other pic would be of a dead hatchling and I am not sure that would contribute much...

This is what was removed from her stomach, it has the consistency of hard wax. The large piece was above the hole in her abdomen, and the smaller piece below...

Keep in in perspective, this was a 36 g snake... the b-cap gives a reference point. Looking at her belly it was quite distended. The same look as all my other snakes that have absorbed and had their first meal.

Figured I would show it to give the complete example of what went on.

Bruce

PS: I guess my last question for anyone that has experienced this... when I intervened... if I had emptied her stomach contents, could I have avoided this? Now that I think about it, it does seem like it would have made a difference.

Just a thot?

Excuse my ignorance, but exactly what is hard belly? I have never seen that term before...

After I heard it I googled and came up with nothing.

But apparently, removing a snake too early from its egg can result in the stomach contents hardening and the snake cannot metabolize it.

Usually this leads to death.

Feeling the snakes belly... it is just that, the entire belly is hard.

Bruce

If anyone can elaborate that is a good thing.

Connie,

My understanding it's when the yolk doesn't absorb correctly and hardens in the belly. Here's some past threads that discuss hard belly:

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ght=hard+belly

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ght=hard+belly

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ght=hard+belly

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ght=hard+belly

Ahh thanks Robin. It does shed more light on the subject.

Thanks Robin... I did not even think of searching in here.

Bruce

Who apparently needs to spread some reputation around... :)

One thing I will add... is when palpating it out of her belly... it was quite easy to do.

Not that it made the stress or trauma for her any less.

Bruce

I do not have the book... but I was told that Kevin has a reference to it in his book... I am assuming the larger version (not the $10.0 version).

Bruce

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Loft Lizard

I do not have the book... but I was told that Kevin has a reference to it in his book... I am assuming the larger version (not the $10.0 version).

Bruce

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Yes the Complete Ball Python book page 111

I am sorry for your loss. Thank you for taking the time to update the rest of us and educate us.

Thank all of you that contributed.