Eating issues, with pictures! What's wrong with my tank!

I'm still struggling to get my baby BP to eat. I got her 2 months ago and she still hasn't ate on her own. I did take her to the vet, and have force/assist fed her twice. It's been about 2 weeks since she last ate and now I'm trying to get her to eat on her own. I've had trouble getting my hands on live feeders, so now I have two breeder rats, no babies yet.

As for what I have tried...EVERYTHING! At least that's what it feels like! I use f/t pinkies and I've tried everything from leaving her in a paper bag with it overnight, to dipping it in warm chicken broth and tong feeding. Still nothing. Also, I've tried every time of day, but have been sticking to about 10-11pm.

About her, she's this year's hatchling, not sure exactly when, 52 grams, roughly 18 inches long.

Her tank is 90-85-80 but she has a heat lamp that gets up to around 95 and a heat pad under one of the hides. The humidity is around 60% usually.

This is what her tank looks like as of now. My boyfriend says it looks like a garbage dump :rolleyes: but I was told by a gal on here that hatchlings don't like wide open spaces. The water bowl is my cool side hide. It's propped up just enough for her to get under.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...a/Isis/003.jpg

I also put a box in this hide because there was so much open space. She's usually squished between the box and the far side of the hide wich is where the heat pad is.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...Isis/004-1.jpg

Tank is way too big, hides not adequate, water bowl is big enough for my dog. Also try live prey, difficult to get babie going on f/t

For a baby ball python you need a much smaller tank.

I'm having the same problem and the only reason I'm getting closer to success is by moving him to a store bought tub.

This is what your new tank should look like. And this is the advice from SatanicIntention that she gave me!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Here's what your tub should look like. It's a 6qt tub, one hide, newspaper(or paper towels), water bowl. Get an UTH or a piece of flexwatt(1 ft of either 4" or 11", wired), and get a quality digital thermostat(Johnson or Ranco is fine). You NEED a digital thermometer too that also measures humidity. He cannot stay in that big tank, or he'll never eat. Constant roaming = lots of stress.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...PICT0008-3.jpg

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...PICT0009-2.jpg

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...PICT0010-3.jpg

Your snake really can't afford to lose much more weight. Your priority right now is getting him in a secure environment where he feels safe, getting his temperatures regulated, and getting him eating.

---

Now this is what my tank looks like,
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...2/DSC04862.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...2/DSC04861.jpg

When it used to be this..
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...2/DSC04854.jpg

Once you get him on a good feeding schedule then you can move him back into a display tank with smaller hides and bowls.
Right now its important to get him eating, try getting a very small live mouse from petco (they have the smallest mice) and feeding that to him.

Thanks again SI for these pictures in such, Sorry if it's against rules or anything.

Hey! Is this Enzoleya from the other forum? The story sounds very familiar. Did you get the photos that I sent you in PM there with setting up a baby ball python and the smaller enclosure?

If it is you - welcome, there are lots of great people here who can help you. I do agree the enclosure is much too large for a baby right now - and would encourage you to consider a smaller enclosure - since getting this baby feeding consistently and getting it healthy is your primary concern right now.

I'm on vacation this week, so my participation may be spotty, but I wanted to see if this was you!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

For a baby ball python you need a much smaller tank.

I'm having the same problem and the only reason I'm getting closer to success is by moving him to a store bought tub.

This is what your new tank should look like. And this is the advice from SatanicIntention that she gave me!


Now this is what my tank looks like,
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...2/DSC04862.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...2/DSC04861.jpg

When it used to be this..
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...2/DSC04854.jpg

Once you get him on a good feeding schedule then you can move him back into a display tank with smaller hides and bowls.
Right now its important to get him eating, try getting a very small live mouse from petco (they have the smallest mice) and feeding that to him.

Thanks again SI for these pictures in such, Sorry if it's against rules or anything.

---

:mad: I hate pet stores!!! I had her in a 10 gallon tank before I went to the petstore and they told me that was way to SMALL! They even thought my 20 gallon long was too small! :mad:

Thank you so much for the pictures. I'm going to the store right now to pick one of those up!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

Hey! Is this Enzoleya from the other forum? The story sounds very familiar. Did you get the photos that I sent you in PM there with setting up a baby ball python and the smaller enclosure?

If it is you - welcome, there are lots of great people here who can help you. I do agree the enclosure is much too large for a baby right now - and would encourage you to consider a smaller enclosure - since getting this baby feeding consistently and getting it healthy is your primary concern right now.

I'm on vacation this week, so my participation may be spotty, but I wanted to see if this was you!

---

Yeah it is EnzoLeya! :D I haven't checked my PMs because I've been so busy trying to keep this girl alive and get my breeder rats ready business! (not to mention the two baby horses :P)

I can't believe snakes don't need or want a larger tank! It's beyond me. So the pet store as no clue what they are talking about and that 20 gallon tank will probably be perfect for her once she's an adult.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Isis

:mad: I hate pet stores!!! I had her in a 10 gallon tank before I went to the petstore and they told me that was way to SMALL! They even thought my 20 gallon long was too small! :mad:

Thank you so much for the pictures. I'm going to the store right now to pick one of those up!



Yeah it is EnzoLeya! :D I haven't checked my PMs because I've been so busy trying to keep this girl alive and get my breeder rats ready business! (not to mention the two baby horses :P)

I can't believe snakes don't need or want a larger tank! It's beyond me. So the pet store as no clue what they are talking about and that 20 gallon tank will probably be perfect for her once she's an adult.

---

Yay! Welcome!

What you have to keep in mind is that pet stores are there to make money. They're not motivated to tell you that you can buy a $3 tub at Dollar General and buy some $.50 plastic plant saucers and solder out entrances to make hides for them.

I also noticed a dial thermometer? Digital is going to give you a much better reading on actual temps.

If you get a chance, go read the PM that I sent you over there - complete with pictures! :)

Also, folks - she's in Iowa - and she's having trouble finding live feeders that are appropriately sized - anyone in that area have any suggestions where she can get some live hopper mice or live rat fuzzies?

A 52 grams baby should not be house in anything larger than a 15quarts tub, ideally 6 quarts would be even better

Most people experiencing problems with very young BP do so because of their husbandry.

I would recommend you to go to walmart get a 6 quart or 15 quarts tub, get (1) or (2) 6 inches plastic flowerpot saucers
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...Room/Hide1.jpg
,depending on which tub you pick, and setup your BP in his new enclosure.

Also get a dial thermometer/hygrometer if you don't already have one http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...Acu-Rite_T.jpg

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...0Room/Tub1.jpg
This is a 15 quarts tub

Leave your BP alone for a week (NO HANDLING) and once a week has passed try to offer a LIVE hopper.

Remember right now the priority is to get your BP to eat so switching to f/t should be secondary and only be done when your BP is well established and eats with consistency.

The key is security and for now your enclosure does not provide the necessary security needed for your BP.

Pet stores are not worthy of being trusted ever.

You have to look at it like this.
You don't want to plan ahead when buying a snake too much, you have to GROW your enclosure and hides as the snake GROWS as well. :]

A 20gal will fit him nicely as an adult, but for now, lets get him eating.

Definitely try live, if you haven't tried it it's worth a shot. As long as you do it responsibly and don't leave it in too long you don't have much to worry about.
(especially when you feed live pinkies or fuzzies from your rats because then they REALLY can't hurt the snake)

Isis, when you think about size and the reasons why everyone is telling you to get a small plastic tub from the store for her (15 qt size) and very small hides is this....

In nature almost no newly born or hatched animal lives in it's full environment. They are kept to small, hidden places for their own safety. Instinct, or in the case of maternally raised animals, tells them that being exposed is dangerous. They can become prey before they ever get the chance to be a predator or live any of their lives. Even within a herd on an open plain, young grazing animals are at the side of their mother or kept to the inside of the herd. Natural instinct is making your very young snake overly stressed in large open glass environment like that.

Add to this the fact that ball pythons tend to be secretive, naturally shy snakes. They live naturally in rodent burrows or inside termite mounds. They stay in tight, low light places and ambush their prey. They are not active hunters that chase prey. They tuck up and they wait, safe in their hidden places.

In captivity we need to replicate that especially for these little ones or they simply will not eat well and thrive.

Get a small tub, 15 qt, no more than 6 inches tall. Put in two very small hides made from just about anything small and dark. Small dark colored plastic bowls work great. If you can fit two in the 15 qt that's fine, if not, put one over the warm end, with her drinking bowl on the cool end.

Buy black binder clips to keep the lid secure. You want at least 4 of them, better yet 6 since these snakes can get out of any give in a lid. You want a small, non-tip water dish. Your snake does not need to soak in it, just to drink from. None of this should cost you more than $20.00.

Here's some pictures for examples....

This is a 15 qt Iris brand tub with binder clips used to make the lid secure.....
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...yTubclosed.jpg

Same tub with the lid off.....
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ordanFeb07.jpg

Close up of the hides we use for the little ones...just a 3 for #1.00 smaller than cereal bowl size from the dollar store with an entrance hole melted in the top using a simple soldering wand (same thing I use to put the ventilation holes in the tubs - $6.00 at Walmart)
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...chlingHide.jpg

Even as they grow they seem to like confined spaces best. This is a bit bigger female BP in her 32 qt enclosure.....
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...MoragFeb07.jpg

To use the "newspaper trick" to settle a snake, here's a series of pictures to explain it....

tub without newspaper....
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...MuirnesTub.jpg

tub with newspaper.....
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ickTopView.jpg

side view of tub with newspaper (see how it differs from yours)....
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ckSideView.jpg

I would set her up in a 15 qt, add in the newspaper bunches, fresh water in her dish then leave her be for a solid week without anything other than very quiet, very brief peeks for removing any waste products.

In the meantime call around to pet stores and ask them what day of the week they get in their mice. Phone back that day and ask if they have any VERY small adults (most stores call them adults when they are basically just weaned mice anyways). Go get one, bring it home in a ventilated kritter keeper and let it sit on top of the warm side of her enclosure for a few hours (making sure the mouse cannot escape.....cardboard boxes from the pet store do NOT work).

After a few hours, open your snake's tub quietly, move only just enough newspaper to introduce the little mouse into the further area of the enclosure away from where your snake is, then snap the lid back on and sit nearby quietly. Don't hang over the snake's tub, don't have loud bass music on or a lot of foot traffic nearby. Try to pick a time in the evening as these snakes are nocturnal and some prefer to eat mostly at night. If the snake doesn't eat, remove the mouse, put it in an enclosure so you can feed and water it and keep it for another 5 days to try again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

Also, folks - she's in Iowa - and she's having trouble finding live feeders that are appropriately sized - anyone in that area have any suggestions where she can get some live hopper mice or live rat fuzzies?

---

Where in Iowa, may I ask? I'm in central IA and live *anything* is readily available here - the place where I go has an entire half of the store devoted to feeder rodents. I can ask the store owner if he knows of a source close to the OP.

Thanks everyone for all the advice! You're so quick to respond with a lot of information!

I took your advice and did what I could for now. How's this?
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...s/45f75705.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...s/9e509f7e.jpg


The heat pad is under the side with the hide, it stretches out to the middle of the tub. I don't know if that's ok. Also is the hide too big? Is one hide fine? The closest Wal-Mart is about 30 miles away, otherwise I would have one of those plant things. The hide I'm using is one of those small butter containers.

Here's a picture of her back when she was looking good. She hasn't shed for me yet and her color is getting rather dull.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...s/IMG_1847.jpg

A lot better :gj:, if you could find something smaller for the hide it would be perfect, small flowerpot saucer, frozen dinner tray, anything that is tight with low ceiling.

You can even cut part of the hide you just made to make it lower.

since this thread is on the subject. do you need to get a lid for the tub ?? im just wondering, knowing how adept escape artists they are ??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

A lot better :gj:, if you could find something smaller for the hide it would be perfect, small flowerpot saucer, frozen dinner tray, anything that is tight with low ceiling.

You can even cut part of the hide you just made to make it lower.

---

What if I cut the butter dish so it was shorter? I plan to get a flowerpot saucer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mikeamy2007

since this thread is on the subject. do you need to get a lid for the tub ?? im just wondering, knowing how adept escape artists they are ??

---

I do have a lid, I just didn't have it on for the pictures. It's a solid colored lid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mikeamy2007

since this thread is on the subject. do you need to get a lid for the tub ?? im just wondering, knowing how adept escape artists they are ??

---

Depends on the setting if it is a stand alone tub: Yes, if it is in a rack system: No

Also if it is a stand alone tub you need to make sure that the lid is secured.

ok i kinda figured., just wanted to be sure, im a little out of it today

Hey looking good!! I'm glad to see everything is working out better. Keep a close eye on her weight, and hopefully someone can chime in with a better source for live rats or mice. ;)

Isis,
I've got rat pinks for sure and a limited number of mouse hoppers......you are more than welcome to stop by.

I can also sex him/her for you if it could take the ride. Just lemme know.

Surprised you didn't hit me up sooner! :)

LMK

Tub is much better. I hope he eats for you soon. He looks so skinny.

Isis - looks like you've gotten some great advice and help from a lot of members, and now somone in you Iowa who can help you with live prey to get her started.

I would leave her completely alone for a full week, then offer a live hopper mouse to her.

I'm sure she's going to feel so much more secure in that enclosure! :D

One thing though...I did not see any ventalation holes in the tub...did I just miss them?

Isis is actually an old friend :)

I called her last night and she does have vent holes and the tub sounds setup pretty well. I had her wrap something (colored tape, towel, etc) around the back 2/3 of the container to limit the light entry to only the front 1/3 and put some small wads of newspaper in the hide and in the container to add more security.

I should have some mouse fuzzies or mouse hoppers in a week or so to leave in overnight and see if we can't get the girl to feed.

I suggest putting her into a tub, or rack system with belly heat. This is from my experience. I had a ball python that would not eat for over 6 months. I tried every week with no success. Finally I decided to buy a rack system w/ tubs and put him in there. He was eating again within the week. Hope this helps.

Did I miss something here or is there no thermostat?

Isis, If you have no thermostat to regulate your heat pad you should make sure you can place your hand directly on the tub bottom over the heat pad without burning yourself. Just about everyone will tell you that you need a thermostat to keep from burning your snake. It can be done without one but it is very very very difficult.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jpman78

Isis is actually an old friend :)

I called her last night and she does have vent holes and the tub sounds setup pretty well. I had her wrap something (colored tape, towel, etc) around the back 2/3 of the container to limit the light entry to only the front 1/3 and put some small wads of newspaper in the hide and in the container to add more security.

I should have some mouse fuzzies or mouse hoppers in a week or so to leave in overnight and see if we can't get the girl to feed.

---

Awesome! With you help - hopefully her baby will be feeding in no time!

You can also use a table top dimmer switch to control the heat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jenn

Isis, If you have no thermostat to regulate your heat pad you should make sure you can place your hand directly on the tub bottom over the heat pad without burning yourself. Just about everyone will tell you that you need a thermostat to keep from burning your snake. It can be done without one but it is very very very difficult.

---

I only have a dial thermostat as of now and it's not working great for the little tub. I have a digital inside/outside thermostat that I could throw in there to check real quick. The heat pad is a reptile pad that I doesn't burn to the touch.

It will be a little bit till I know the temp in there, it's slow....

I think that maybe you're getting thermostat and thermometer a little confused? Thermostat controls the heat put out by the UTH and the thermometer goes inside the tub and lets you see what the temps are. Have you got a thermostat to control the heat source? This is important because UTH's and other heat sources can become much too hot when left running wide open.

On another note, it is really neat seeing everyone coming together on this one :gj: BP.Net at its finest ;)

Isis, this is very important. If you have no dimmer switch or thermostat to control your heat pad then as a very temporary fix you could just make sure that the bottom of the tub is not sitting directly on the heat pad. You could prop the tub up about a quarter of an inch or so above the heat pad so there is some air flow BETWEEN the heat pad and the bottom of the tub. You could use strips of wood or maybe those little funiture pads with the sticky backs to elevate your tub above the heat pad until you get a thermostat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by starmom

I think that maybe you're getting thermostat and thermometer a little confused? Thermostat controls the heat put out by the UTH and the thermometer goes inside the tub and lets you see what the temps are. Have you got a thermostat to control the heat source? This is important because UTH's and other heat sources can become much too hot when left running wide open.

On another note, it is really neat seeing everyone coming together on this one :gj: BP.Net at its finest ;)

---

Oh my....yeah, I was a little confused. I have a thermometer in the tub and it says it's 80 in there. Of course I couldn't tell you how hot the heat pad is exactly.

Also, how do I know what's too hot? The heat pad doesn't seem hot to me at all. I can hold in on my bare skin without it getting too hot.

Yes, in my opinion you need a thermostat. Whether you go with a UTH or flex watt or radiant heat panel- you need a thermostat! :)

Yes, you NEED a thermostat...especially with UTH pads and flexwatt. What only feels 'rather warm' to your hand could actually be 98-110 which is WAY too hot for the snake!

To determine the temps of the pad, you place the probe of your thermometer (which gives the "out" temp) right on the bottom of the tub over the pad. That is the reading you want to get.

When you get a thermoSTAT to control the pad - anything from a top end Herpstat for $110, to a good Johnson for $80, to a cheap but good enough ZooMed ReptiTemp for $25 - you will tape the probe of the stat directly to the heat pad or flexwatt Under the tub, then plug the heat source into the stat. Using the readings of your thermoMeter, you 'tweak' the settings on the t-stat until you have the desired temps. :)

Sorry if that was confusing...

Isis, for now though until you can sort out the whole thermostat thing you can just pick up a rheostat.

Why this is so important is that there is no heating equipment made that won't, at some point, spike temps. Spiked temps can and will cause belly burns on a snake so you want to avoid that at all costs. The use of a thermostat or rheostat as a controlling device on a heating source accomplishes that goal.

Basically a rheostat is a lamp dimmer switch. Looks like this....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...g/Rheostat.jpg

This is the Lutron brand available at Home Depot and most major stores. Retails for generally around $10.00

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...ctId=100001525

The rheostat (lamp dimmer) gets plugged into your wall socket and the heating equipment you are controlling gets plugged into the outlet on the dimmer. Like this....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...WallSocket.jpg

These dimmers are rated for up to 300 watts but you should be in no way even close to that on a single heat matt but you should get in the habit of knowing what wattage any heating appartus is (just a safety precaution really and a good habit to form right up front).

Now once you have your rheostat plugged into the wall socket and your heat mat plugged into the rheostat you need to see how these things work.

Move the slide up until the LED light is brightest....mark a C there in permanet marker. This indicates "cool". In other words the dimmer is exerting the maximum control on your heatpad therefore restricting electricity therefore causing the heatpad to cool. Now slide it down until the LED light is dullest....mark a W there in marker. This indicates "warm". This is the least amount of control from the dimmer (rheostat) on your heating appartus therefore allowing it to pump out more heat.

Almost everyone, me included, uses a lamp dimmer type rheostat backwards at first. :) Something in the human mind just says that bright light LED must mean more heat when it's actually exactly the opposite.

Now it's time to find the "sweet spot". That's very dependent on the temps of the room the tub is in, how big the tub is, choice of substrate, depth of substrate, etc. To make this easier on you choose a place in the room your snake is in that's not against a window or in direct drafts or in direct sunlight. Not on the floor either so you aren't getting cold floor drafts. This should be the most stable spot in your room for temperature fluctations.

Once you set up your tub there watch it over the course of 48 hours. You are aiming for 90 degrees warm side, 80 degrees cool side. When you find that spot on the slide that holds those temps best....mark it with a line. This is the "sweet spot" for that rheostat on that heating equipment in that room.

Looks like this....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...statMarked.jpg

This is where most often your tub will sit correctly but you must make it a habit to check this at least twice daily. Also at any other time that room's temps take a dramatic dip or rise due to weather conditions, a window open, whatever.

Rheostats aren't as good as thermostats but they are quite workable if you are willing to check them 2 or 3 times daily. For a single tub situation like this, if the tub is in a stable room condition, it should do just fine for you and the snake.

Great info Joanna!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankykeno

Isis, for now though until you can sort out the whole thermostat thing you can just pick up a rheostat.

Why this is so important is that there is no heating equipment made that won't, at some point, spike temps. Spiked temps can and will cause belly burns on a snake so you want to avoid that at all costs. The use of a thermostat or rheostat as a controlling device on a heating source accomplishes that goal.

Basically a rheostat is a lamp dimmer switch. Looks like this....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...g/Rheostat.jpg

This is the Lutron brand available at Home Depot and most major stores. Retails for generally around $10.00

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...ctId=100001525

The rheostat (lamp dimmer) gets plugged into your wall socket and the heating equipment you are controlling gets plugged into the outlet on the dimmer. Like this....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...WallSocket.jpg

These dimmers are rated for up to 300 watts but you should be in no way even close to that on a single heat matt but you should get in the habit of knowing what wattage any heating appartus is (just a safety precaution really and a good habit to form right up front).

Now once you have your rheostat plugged into the wall socket and your heat mat plugged into the rheostat you need to see how these things work.

Move the slide up until the LED light is brightest....mark a C there in permanet marker. This indicates "cool". In other words the dimmer is exerting the maximum control on your heatpad therefore restricting electricity therefore causing the heatpad to cool. Now slide it down until the LED light is dullest....mark a W there in marker. This indicates "warm". This is the least amount of control from the dimmer (rheostat) on your heating appartus therefore allowing it to pump out more heat.

Almost everyone, me included, uses a lamp dimmer type rheostat backwards at first. :) Something in the human mind just says that bright light LED must mean more heat when it's actually exactly the opposite.

Now it's time to find the "sweet spot". That's very dependent on the temps of the room the tub is in, how big the tub is, choice of substrate, depth of substrate, etc. To make this easier on you choose a place in the room your snake is in that's not against a window or in direct drafts or in direct sunlight. Not on the floor either so you aren't getting cold floor drafts. This should be the most stable spot in your room for temperature fluctations.

Once you set up your tub there watch it over the course of 48 hours. You are aiming for 90 degrees warm side, 80 degrees cool side. When you find that spot on the slide that holds those temps best....mark it with a line. This is the "sweet spot" for that rheostat on that heating equipment in that room.

Looks like this....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...statMarked.jpg

This is where most often your tub will sit correctly but you must make it a habit to check this at least twice daily. Also at any other time that room's temps take a dramatic dip or rise due to weather conditions, a window open, whatever.

Rheostats aren't as good as thermostats but they are quite workable if you are willing to check them 2 or 3 times daily. For a single tub situation like this, if the tub is in a stable room condition, it should do just fine for you and the snake.

---

You're welcome, Stephanie. Hope it's helpful. :)