Ball Body Language?

I have been reading through a lot of threads related to bites from BP's...and the phrase 'learning to read your snake's body language' keeps coming up as a way to not get bit.

I am new to BP's (since Saturday). And already a bite from the 3 week old BP we brought home:oops:.

He did not appear to be in what I would think of as a strike position... Our cornsnakes have a very definite "S" when they are getting stressed and thinking of striking out.

So any information on reading BP Body Language would be REALLY appreciated.
Thank you!

Baby ball pythons strike a lot, and with little warning. As they get older they will do things that will tell you they are going to bite. Mine I noticed will make their neck in a S shape as you mentioned and shake their heads back and forth a little bit.

As far as babies just try to pick them up from an angle that their head is not facing you. With most snakes the initial picking up is the time you are most likely to get bit, once you have picked them up they seem to calm down a bit... Just remember keep your hands away from the front of their face...

Its not only about their body posture but also their breathing and movement. I have some that will tag you at the drop of a hat then some that wouldn't bite you even if you smelled like rat.

Watch their breathing and see when the tense up. That a good sign something is coming.

Not to hijack the thread but it does say "body language". What about other types of body language? Yawning while being held, etc... Any clue on how to tell if the bp is relaxed?

Also are the girls often a bit more temperamental than the boys? There are always exceptions, but in many species (except humans...haha) it seems females can be a bit more moody.

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Originally Posted by Sonya610

Not to hijack the thread but it does say "body language". What about other types of body language? Yawning while being held, etc... Any clue on how to tell if the bp is relaxed?

Also are the girls often a bit more temperamental than the boys? There are always exceptions, but in many species (except humans...haha) it seems females can be a bit more moody.

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I my limited experience I can't say whether yawning is a sign of being relaxed or not. But a ball is relaxed when they aren't trying to get away/striking/ or being an all around pain.

As for if one sex is more temperamental than another I have more Females than Males so my perception is skewed.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

As for if one sex is more temperamental than another I have more Females than Males so my perception is skewed.

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So that is an implied yes huh?

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Originally Posted by Sonya610

Not to hijack the thread but it does say "body language". What about other types of body language? Yawning while being held, etc... Any clue on how to tell if the bp is relaxed?

Also are the girls often a bit more temperamental than the boys? There are always exceptions, but in many species (except humans...haha) it seems females can be a bit more moody.

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I have never had one of my girls even strike at me, but the 100% het albino male I have will strike at just about anything, he is very aggressive. He will eat live or frozen and never takes more than 10 seconds to strike his prey....

And as far as humans women are... well lets just say full of estrogen.... Lol

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Originally Posted by Sonya610

So that is an implied yes huh?

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:rofl::rofl::rofl: no no

it just means that most of my snakes are females so I have 20 females and 5 males and 3 females are a pain and no males are then it just means that I have a higher sampling of females temperament than males. Now if I have 2000 females and 2000 males and 500 females were pains and 5 males were then I'd feel comfortable saying yea females are more prone to aggression but right now I can't make that conclusion.. :gj:

I've noticed that when they get defensive they tend to take a breath of air and hold it in, and puff up their bodies to look big, and tense their muscles; if they're holding your arm, you can feel their grip go from a relaxed, calm, but firm and safe grip to very tight, and they become like a bar of muscle around your arm. You'll know they're upset, but usually they don't bite when being held, though they'll usually jerk their heads back if you move near it, and scare the bejeezus out of those around you. :p

But like people said before, most of the time you're going to get bitten when you're reaching in to pick them up or if you smell like rat.


But just for the record, I've only been "defensive-strike" bitten twice, and both times by males. The other times were by my hungry females, twice in the case of "smell rat, bite, identify object bitten later", and once in the case of getting over excited at the smell of food and coming flying out of the tub...neither of which I would count as aggression.

So much about the relationship between an animal and a person cannot be put into words. Some people who have owned a certain snake for a long time can just take one look at it and understand it's mood. For me, the most rewarding part about snake keeping (aside from coming up with the next hot morph combo) is learning my snakes. They are all different.

A snake is primarily muscle - so when the snake is uneasy you can see and feel the muscles tense up and when it's relaxed you can see it relax. If you are holding a snake that doesn't want to be held -- it will be all tensed up and hard and likely try to flee or poop on you -- once it relaxes it will be a soft and mushy snake that wants nothing more than to curl up in your warm lap. :D

As for babies -- some are nice enough to huff and puff and get in the strike pose prior to striking - easy enough to read. And others just randomly launch out and bite at anything they can -- they tend to outgrow this little maneuver.

:snake:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

it just means that most of my snakes are females so I have 20 females and 5 males

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Ahhh...okay that makes sense. I guess a lot of breeders have many more females than males. It just seems I have noticed quite a few people talk about "annoyed girls" but maybe that is cause they have a lot more girls.

With canines and felines (especially in groups) it is easy to see the males are often sweeter and more social, I wondered if the same applied to BP's (I bought my baby thinking it was male and now it appears to be female).

It surely does take time to learn to read the body language of new species. I remember when I bought my first Doberman the very experienced show breeder said "you can feel them shudder through the lead before they act, you will feel the rumbling before they growl, you will learn to know when its coming" and sure enough...years later I started to feel the vibration before it happened.

Same thing with Ball pythons you'll be able to tell (most of the time) when a strike is coming. I can go to a show or to a store look at a group of young snake at tell you which ones will make you bleed picking through them.. It's really kind of fun once you get over the shock of getting struck at.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I my limited experience I can't say whether yawning is a sign of being relaxed or not. But a ball is relaxed when they aren't trying to get away/striking/ or being an all around pain.

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I have had my snake for a month now and everytime I take him out he "crawls" around like crazy. He's never just 'sat' on my lap. Does this mean he is not relaxed? I always just thought he was curious.

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Originally Posted by donley

I have had my snake for a month now and everytime I take him out he "crawls" around like crazy. He's never just 'sat' on my lap. Does this mean he is not relaxed? I always just thought he was curious.

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It would depend on his attitude while he doing it if hes just crawling around like "LA LA LA LA" then its relaxed. But if its more like "OH MY GOD RUNNNN FOR THE HILLS.....DON'T TOUCH ME.....AAAAA" then I'd say no its probably not thrilled to be out in the open with that huge warm strange thing looming over it (<< that's how you appear to your snake). Now not to say that your snake wont calm down and get more use to the idea but then again it might not. :D

Ive had mine for about a month, but hes about three foot, which makes me wanna sy hes about 2? anyhow ive noticed that if i come at him too fast, he'll kinda tense up, but he never "tracks" my hand and once i got ihm, he just kinda goes completely relaxed, and its at that point i know hes good to go. He very docile

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Originally Posted by mikeamy2007

anyhow ive noticed that if i come at him too fast, he'll kinda tense up,

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Yea your snake is doing that ":O what the hell?" :oops: "Oh it's you" thing most of them will do that even the very docile ones. It takes them a second to process the "will it eat me" factor.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

It would depend on his attitude while he doing it if hes just crawling around like "LA LA LA LA" then its relaxed.

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Yeah I have noticed if my girl sits quietly while being held, then stretches her head/neck way up high and starts smelling things, it does seem she must be relaxed. In the wild stretching like that, raising ones neck and head up several inches would probably not be the best survival strategy when frightened.

(Did i say i was not hijacking the thread? Guess I lied, but this is so interesting and I hate to post tons of newbie questions in brand new threads.)

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Yea your snake is doing that ":O what the hell?" :oops: "Oh it's you" thing most of them will do that even the very docile ones. It takes them a second to process the "will it eat me" factor.

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Yeah it never really worried me, but i did notice it. Anyone in my house can reach in and get him, i guess i got really lucky.

Thank you for the helpful replies.

Thanks again!

Should we just stick with the gloves until about a year old then?

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Originally Posted by Cam

Should we just stick with the gloves until about a year old then?

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No need...
you deal with snakes your going to get bit you had much rather it be from a tiny baby than a big ole honking adult.....trust me.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

No need...
you deal with snakes your going to get bit you had much rather it be from a tiny baby than a big ole honking adult.....trust me.

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I should have clarified...our 8 yr old already got tagged...I am thinking the kids need to stick with gloves...Should I expect his 'BP phase' to last about a year?

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Originally Posted by Cam

I should have clarified...our 8 yr old already got tagged...I am thinking the kids need to stick with gloves...Should I expect his 'BP phase' to last about a year?

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Its great that your snake will generally "let everyone grab it" and all, but errrmmm....if your 8 year old got tagged and you have not, maybe you should consider teaching everyone in your household about being gentle and as non-threatening as possible.

Just because the bp does not strike, it doesn't mean he is not frightened and stressed out.

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Originally Posted by Sonya610

Its great that your snake will generally "let everyone grab it" and all, but errrmmm....if your 8 year old got tagged and you have not, maybe you should consider teaching everyone in your household about being gentle and as non-threatening as possible.

Just because the bp does not strike, it doesn't mean he is not frightened and stressed out.

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WARNING: This is a long explanation.

Just to clarify again...I guess I am not expressing my ideas very well.
I never said our BP 'lets everyone grab it'.
We had the baby BP home for only a few days...(yes should have left it alone for a week)
hubby came home from out of town...
took baby BP out to show hubby...
hubby held Baby in hands for 3 minutes...
8 year old offered to put baby back...I said sure...
son reached out towards baby BP...
baby BP struck out a full foot from where my husband was holding him...punctured sons hand (4 teeth marks)...bled a bit...
son said "well he must have been scared and used the only defense he has...

We have had corn snakes for over 5 years...I am very respectful as are my children of all our animals. We have spent a lot of time teaching everyone in our household to be gentle so as not to stress out the animals.

But I obviously missed reading the BP body language...that is why O came here to ask for help. Our corns are very predictable in their postures, movement and signals.

I was NOT saying that just because the animal does not strike it is not stressed. Truth be told all of the BPs being held most everywhere are experiencing stress. They are a secretive snake (like most) and it is not in their genetic code to seek out human interaction...

Obviously the BP is a completely different snake than a corn.
I wish some of the folks I spoke with who own both would have mentioned that. They said the BP was bigger but more docile than the corn...They said the two snakes were both 'beginner snakes because they are so docile' 'the doggies of the snake world'
Yes. It is ALL MY FAULT...that is why I came here for clarification and help. I have read 4 books, talked and quizzed people for the last 6+ months and have searched here too. Mostly around feeding and humidity issues since those are the 2 things that I was told were the tough parts of caring for BPs.

Thank you to everyone for their help.
I hope you now understand we are not just yanking the snakes out and running through the house with them for something to do. We really care about our animals and consider them a part of the family and a valuable part of the world to be respected.

Consistent short handling session of 5-10 minutes every few days will teach you and the BP about each other.

The best you can do to help him calm down is to offer ample cover and hides, proper husbandry, and give him 2 weeks to just chill by himself with no interruptions.

When it comes time to handle, move slow, stay quiet and try to remain as calm and still as possible for the short handling session. After the 5-10 minutes, put him back into his cage.

Don't handle on feeding day, dont handle for 48 hours or more after feeding depending on the size of meal. Handle during mid day when he is "sleeping" and from these sessions you'll quickly see what really stresses him out and when he wants to go hide again.

Our ball has trained us to read a different meaning with some of her body language: "I'm hungry".

When Cleo is hungry, she a third of the way out her hide, hovering, slightly S'ed and "throbbing" or "bouncing". She is so excited and ready to eat, her weight must be near where her heart is and her heartbeat causes her front third to bounce. =)

If she's not bouncing, she's not hungry (or at least she hasn't eaten in recent history when she wasn't exhibiting this body language).

She was so excited last night, she even struck at glass - "HUNGRY NOW!" She let's us know, hehe...

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Consistent short handling session of 5-10 minutes every few days will teach you and the BP about each other.

The best you can do to help him calm down is to offer ample cover and hides, proper husbandry, and give him 2 weeks to just chill by himself with no interruptions.

When it comes time to handle, move slow, stay quiet and try to remain as calm and still as possible for the short handling session. After the 5-10 minutes, put him back into his cage.

Don't handle on feeding day, dont handle for 48 hours or more after feeding depending on the size of meal. Handle during mid day when he is "sleeping" and from these sessions you'll quickly see what really stresses him out and when he wants to go hide again.

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Thank you:D
I really appreciate how you laid it all out.
He ate last Friday (the day before we brought him home). He has poo'd twice already...should I go ahead and feed him this Friday (sooner/later?).

'Frank' is in a 20 gallon long, UTH on one end with a dimmed black light over the middle to maintain the ambient temps.

Water bowl, 2" aspen bedding, 3 small/snug hides (I have oriented the entrances to the back of the tank so he hopefully feels more secure, and 2 moss/moist hides...he seems to spend the most time in the moist hide that is at 82-84*F.
Cool side is at 80-82*F warm side is at 90-95*F where the 'basking' site is.

Open to suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Same thing with Ball pythons you'll be able to tell (most of the time) when a strike is coming. I can go to a show or to a store look at a group of young snake at tell you which ones will make you bleed picking through them.. It's really kind of fun once you get over the shock of getting struck at.

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How do you tell just by looking? What are the cues you see?
Thanks:)

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Originally Posted by Mochelem

With most snakes the initial picking up is the time you are most likely to get bit, once you have picked them up they seem to calm down a bit... Just remember keep your hands away from the front of their face...

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Do you use a snake hook?
Or just plan for the best:)

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Originally Posted by Sonya610

Not to hijack the thread but it does say "body language". What about other types of body language? Yawning while being held, etc... Any clue on how to tell if the bp is relaxed?

Also are the girls often a bit more temperamental than the boys? There are always exceptions, but in many species (except humans...haha) it seems females can be a bit more moody.

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i have an unsexed big ole honker BP and i'm pretty sure he's a Heeee. but i'm not positive. ne who, i think he's a boy cuz he's nicer too ;) and i've heard as well that lady snakes are a bit more hissy pissy and ornery when it comes down to it!

and PS, haha @ the purple part i highlighted ;)

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Originally Posted by Cam

Do you use a snake hook?
Or just plan for the best:)

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i personally cannot IMAGINE using a snake hook with a BP. unless it was like, a schizophrenic BP who like, attacked like a cobra.... haha no jk, i just can't imagine using a hook with a BP. they're so cuuute. they're so niiiice. a hook? hehe.

of course i have not been bitten yet (and i'm sure the first bite i get will come around when i decide to indulge in a morph and get a BABY snake :) ) so maybe you shouldn't listen to me, but i think a hook is a scoach overboard. haha i'm a lucky untagged BP owner, but i'm pretty sure, the first time i get bit, i will feel much more experienced in the BP world lol...

Vicious if he is an older boy why don't you pop him? It might be pretty obvious.

Here is some body language for you.
This means "I'm gonna bite you if you come near me".:D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...tiles/b007.jpg

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Originally Posted by ViciousBliss

i personally cannot IMAGINE using a snake hook with a BP. unless it was like, a schizophrenic BP who like, attacked like a cobra.... haha no jk, i just can't imagine using a hook with a BP. they're so cuuute. they're so niiiice. a hook? hehe.

of course i have not been bitten yet (and i'm sure the first bite i get will come around when i decide to indulge in a morph and get a BABY snake :) ) so maybe you shouldn't listen to me, but i think a hook is a scoach overboard. haha i'm a lucky untagged BP owner, but i'm pretty sure, the first time i get bit, i will feel much more experienced in the BP world lol...

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Let me introduce you to one of my large breeder girls.:D A hook is my best friend when dealing with her.:)

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Originally Posted by SPJ

Let me introduce you to one of my large breeder girls.:D A hook is my best friend when dealing with her.:)

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haha lol see girls are hissy pissy-ier than boys ;) lolol.

do you think the amount the snake is handled plays into the tudes the snakes develop?

hehe... i guess i'd never heard of anyone using a hook on a BP so i didn't think about it hard enough.. thanks for educatin me :oops:

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Originally Posted by Sonya610

Vicious if he is an older boy why don't you pop him? It might be pretty obvious.

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gosh ya know, i just don't think he'd be too happy if i did that. he's almost 4 feet... haha.

all i know is that snakes are popped when they're babies (which mean they're not NEARLY as strong...) and i just haven't ever heard of anyone poppin an adult.

wouldn't it just be wise to have a professional do it? i mean, if it's as simple as "poppin" him, i suppose i could give it a shot when he's not in blue (which he is atm) heh i just don't want to give him a reason to tag me!

I still don't know where people got this idea that females are more aggressive? When it comes right down to it, I haven't noticed a difference between my males or females that can be concluded as a gender issue. I think it's all on their personality and how they been brought up.

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Originally Posted by ViciousBliss

gosh ya know, i just don't think he'd be too happy if i did that. he's almost 4 feet... haha.

all i know is that snakes are popped when they're babies (which mean they're not NEARLY as strong...) and i just haven't ever heard of anyone poppin an adult.

wouldn't it just be wise to have a professional do it? i mean, if it's as simple as "poppin" him, i suppose i could give it a shot when he's not in blue (which he is atm) heh i just don't want to give him a reason to tag me!

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If you don't feel comfortable, then dont do it. Check out 8ballpythons for popping videos. Adam does some big old snakes in there, looks like he's going to squeeze the bits off.

Cam, I'd like to say first off that I think your child is great! What a wonderful and appropriate response to getting tagged. No blaming the snake or freaking out about the "evil snake" and all that. Just an "oh well, it's a snake and that's what snakes sometimes do" attitude. Very good! That's a future confident herper if I ever saw one. :)

Here's my take on handling and body language in ball pythons. BP's don't use a bite first ask questions later defense mode as much as other snakes, however, they can and will tag you sometimes without warning. It's just not that common once they mature out of the freaked out baby phase.

What we do with all our snakes (BP's, the boa's, the milksnake) is get them used to simple routines. Routine #1 is the "don't mind me I'm just cleaning up your poop" routine and doesn't entail us touching the snake or bothering it - we're just there as the housekeeping staff LOL. Routine #2 is the "let's share some time" one - for this one we might remove the hide if the snake is in it, we take a second to observe the snake's body position, rate of respiration and tongue flicking, we speak to the snake and gently stroke it well down it's body (avoiding the head), this allows the snake to become alert to us and this stroke is the signal that we are going to lift you out of your enclosure, almost all our snakes begin to know this touch and some will immediately start to go up our arms themselves. Routine #3 is feeding night - the snakes aren't handled, they are all primed to eat, most in full strike positions, we just slide out their tubs, introduce the live prey at the fullest point away from them and that's that, WHAMP! dinnertime!

We just basically repeat the three simple routines. The snakes are pretty smart about picking up what each means. If the tub opens and the rat is there....it's dinnertime....if the tub opens and somebody strokes my back, it's handling time....if the tub opens and somebody's not bothering me but is removing my poop, heck I've got a pretty good deal in life and can just go back to sleeping and dreaming of fat, juicy rats. :D

Learn to observe your snake in it's home. Watch it's body when it's hunting, watch it when it sleeps, when it's having a drink and out for a roam. You'll all soon learn to read it's subtle signals from that observation. When you do handle the snake, pay close attention to the tenseness of it's muscles, to it's grip on your arm, to the intenseness of it's whole being. It's very hard to describe but you can just look at a snake after awhile and know you are going to get nailed. Sometimes they surprise you but most of the time you know what's coming and can re-direct it or just choose to handle the snake at another time.

As far as your child handling the snake, here's a few things we taught our kids.

We adults handle the snake first and help judge with them if that particular snake is good to handle right now (this would be for our 7 year old, the teens know by now how to figure this one out alone). We make sure their hands are clean and do not smell of rodents (we raise our own). We make sure the room they are handling in is quiet and not our typical family crazy time. :rolleyes:

With the 7 year old he's required to be sitting down while he handles as he's a bit hyper and jumpy. We don't want him to accidentally drop a snake if he's walking around. We also have a firm and absolute rule in this house that no child under 18 ever has a snake around their neck. Not even the small milksnake is allowed there. This is to re-inforce to our children that not every snake is safe on your neck - for you or for the snake. Since we do have fairly large snakes in the house, this rule isn't broken or they lose their right to handle a snake for awhile.

They all know to touch first and then lift the snake. If the snake reacts badly, better they get a small finger nip then a snake acting up outside it's enclosure. They all know that snake's react to heat and quick movement so wiggling your fingers in a snake's face is just asking to get nailed. They all know that BP's in particular can be quite headshy so coming over them from above triggers them to think you are a predator. Most of our snakes do better with an under the "chin" rub.

The kids know that they aren't allowed to kiss the snakes. It's a house rule that if something can lick it's own bum or slithers through it's own poop, mom is going to have a fit it you let that pet near your mouth LOL.

The kids are all taught to keep the snake under control without squeezing it's body too hard. With the 7 year old we often sit beside him while he handles to monitor how it's going. We try and keep his handling sessions short so they go well. This builds his confidence and cuts down on the risks of nips.

After handling the snakes the kids know they must go wash and use gel hand sanitizer.

Joanna...
THANK YOU!!!

Thank you both for your techniques and for including the 'why's' of what and how you do what you do:)

We follow the same rules in our home about snakes around the neck, kissing anything that can't give itself a bath, and hand washing etc.

We have been so fortunate to be involved with these animals.
I tell our boys they are lucky their Dad has allergies, otherwise they would have had a dog like their friends;)

Being involved in the research and care of the reptiles has helped our kids appreciate life at all levels. there were several instances at the elementary school that our oldest son came home very upset about regarding kids stoning critters on the playgruond etc.
As a kid who would not ever stand up for himself I was shocked when he intervened on the part of the playground critters.I was even more shocked when I asked the school counselor to talk to the 5th graders about how to treat animals and her reply was "this is normal" behavior. They are thinking 'gee, if I throw a rock at the squirrels head what will happen?'".:O

After a full week of increasing incidents, our bringing her information about kids who injure animals on a regular basis and how they can be more likely to grow up and treat humans the same way (and the fact we sent out a note to the 5th grade parents explaining what was going on)...she finally did a 5 minute talk about treating animals 'nice'.:rolleyes:

I also like that they have learned that while people can be mean on purpose that animals are operating on a different set of life rules...hunger, fear, comfort.
They do not premeditate for days on how to bite you to get back at you for something (although it may feel like it;)).

That is why I really needed some guidance on how to read the BPs...our corns are so predictable...and with practice we will figure out our Frank too. I apologized to our son and explained why it was my fault. I asked if he was nervous to hold Frank again. He said, "Nope, I just need to observe better what he is trying to tell me."

{on a related note: Our local humane society does temperament testing on the dogs up for adoption. The dogs never get 'marked down' for growling..because they are communicating the only way they can.}

Since snakes don't growl I need to be more aware of what they are signaling and teach our kids the same.:snake::gj:

Thank you again to everyone:bow:...wish us luck on the first feeding for Frank tomorrow:)