Power feeding?

Hi,

Was just reading a thread that mentioned power feeding and in Tim's post he mentions "correct power feeding" and I agreed with him that would be a good topic for discussion in more depth here.

So,

What are the circumstances in which you would consider it?

What are the signs to tell if you are still doing more good than harm to the animal?

Any one have a checklist others could reffer too to decide if it is the right thing for their animal?

Do you disagree or agree with the practice and are there mitigating circumstances for both?


dr del

This is a difficult subject, since metabolic rates vary between individual animals-sometimes greatly. For example, I have two '07 holdback females-a pastel and a pewter-that have been fed on the same schedule (every 4-5 days). These snakes hatched within a month of each other, yet the pastel weighs 1100 gms right now, while the pewter is at 674!

I would venture to say that any young ball that was showing signs of obesity, or was having trouble with elimination, is probably being overfed. But an animal showing steady growth in length and weight, (without looking like a little blood python on steroids!) is probably doing fine.

Sorry to be unable to be more precise, but like so many aspects of this hobby, everything depends on watching your animals closely and being aware of how things are going.

Since I guess I kind of fueled the fire resulting in the creation of this thread, I will post up my take on Power Feeding.

I saw a bit ago on another thread, that someone was asking; What is Power Feeding. I don't know that there is a definition, and I don't know exactly how I would put it into words. However, I guess power feeding can be described as feeding more than the usual or recommended food items.

With that said, I have been/am guilty of feeding more than the norm. I feed some (I say some, becasue not all, and certainly not any snake that I intend to sell) of my hatchlings every three days. This is mostly done to "important" (it's in the eye of the beholder) males that I would like to breed at 6-8 months of age. Once that animal gets to 500 grams, or once it stops taking 2 meals a week, I discontinue the increased feed rate. Many of the males that I attempt this with, will quit taking the secon meal a week near the 300 gram mark.
An explanation of why I think this is not harmful, and some input from other sources I have spoken with is as follows. I believe (and this has been reaffirmed by other breeders large and small) that evolution has programmed these animals to grow as fast as possible soon after hatching. This only makes sense, as a large snake has fewer predators than a small hatchling Ball Python. I believe that these snakes may actually have a higher metabolism at an early age that allows them to take in more food and grow faster when they are small. I have been wanting to take a closer look at this theory, but have yet to do so. I think that hatchling Ball Pythons may actually be slightly warmer, and spend more time on the hot end of the tank, in an attempt to digest slightly faster. I may have to take some temps with the temp gun this year in an attempt to put some numbers to this theory. Also, I believe this is happening in the wild, as every year, imported wild caught balls that are believed to be less than 8 months old come in with some pretty astounding weights.

I do know of a couple of people that have fed hatchlings as often as every other day without any adverse effects. I am not saying that I condone, or have ever tried this, and I certainly do not recommend it. However, I wanted to relay something that I have seen and heard of in the past. I do believe that the act of "overfeeding" can be dangerous to yearling and older animals, and would never try it. However, I have yet to see an obese Ball that is under 6 months of age. Please feel free to question anything that I have written, and I always love a good discussion. I merely wanted to see this in the Advanced Husbandry section, as I do believe it has a place, and someone with a good bit of experience may want to try it and need a little guidance.

Regards,

Thanks for taking the time and defining power feeding. I was wondering because I have a black pastel female that'll eat and then 3 or 4 days later be cruisin and looking for food again.. She was 160 or so grams when I got her in Feb. She is about 800g now. All my other snakes don't do this. Except maybe my pastel female but she doesn't do this every week like the black does. I just didn't want to be overfeeding my snakes is why I asked.

Hi,

Thanks for all the info.:)

Tim,

Do you ever see any ball pythons with pinheads? By that I mean a head disproportionately small for their body size as this was often given as an indicator that the snake has been power fed in other species.

The faster growth rate makes sense as a survival mechanism but I imagine they live a slightly more sedentary lifestyle in captivity and wondered if that could lead to problems.


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Thanks for all the info.:)

Tim,

Do you ever see any ball pythons with pinheads? By that I mean a head disproportionately small for their body size as this was often given as an indicator that the snake has been power fed in other species.

The faster growth rate makes sense as a survival mechanism but I imagine they live a slightly more sedentary lifestyle in captivity and wondered if that could lead to problems.


dr del

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Derek,
I understand the pinhead thing, but I have never noticed it in any of my animals. As for the sedentary lifestyle of Captive animals, I definitely think it could be a problem. This is exactly why closely monitoring your animals is important. However, if my theory has any merit, the increased metabolism in the very young snakes will help them have fewer problems from an increased feeding regimen.

I have a couple additional questions concerning this:

1. With the increased feeding when they are young does it affect the snakes long term growth rates?

(With this I mean if you feed one snake 2 times a week and it gets to 500 grams and then you have another snake that was only fed once a week at 500 grams and now you switch then to a regular once a week feeding do either of these snakes exhibit faster growth than the other while going into sub adult hood?)

2. Is it still classified as power feeding if you are offering smaller prey than the snake can reasonably take? Pinky rats instead of fuzzy rats?

3. Has any noticeable difference been seen between males and females who have been fed using this practice?

The reason I ask this is we recently purchased two (1.1) baby Mojave's from a smaller breeder and he was trying to feed them on an every 3 day schedule. The female had three meals and the male 2 meals before we got them. We have kept them on the three day schedule with the intention of dropping them back to 4-5 day schedule around 300 grams then every week at 600 grams. These are definitely keepers in our collection, but I just want to make sure I am not doing something that is going to have long term affects on them.

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

I have a couple additional questions concerning this:

1. With the increased feeding when they are young does it affect the snakes long term growth rates?

(With this I mean if you feed one snake 2 times a week and it gets to 500 grams and then you have another snake that was only fed once a week at 500 grams and now you switch then to a regular once a week feeding do either of these snakes exhibit faster growth than the other while going into sub adult hood?)

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That is a hard question to answer, simply based on the fact that each animal is different. Even animals from the same clutch have growth rate differences. There again, define long term. Remember that since Ball Python breeding is relatively new, I would bet that there are very few 15 year old Captive Bred Ball Pythons around, and the ones that do exist, probably don't have very good records kept on them. I hear alot of people talk about long term effects on Ball Pythons by doing x, y or z, but I don't think they have been looked at closely for long enough to really hypothesize about long term effects. I can tell you that I have three male Ball Pythons (Albino, Het Pied and Hypo) that were fed like this until 500 grams, and then switched to every 7 days, and they were all over 1200 grams by 18 months old. They are now 4 years old and are over 1500 grams. That's as long term as I can tell you from my collection.

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

2. Is it still classified as power feeding if you are offering smaller prey than the snake can reasonably take? Pinky rats instead of fuzzy rats?

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I don't know how to answer that one either, as power feeding has no real definition. However, to me, I would still classify it as power feeding, since even though it is a smaller meal, you are still introducing food to the stomach before the last meal is completely digested.

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

3. Has any noticeable difference been seen between males and females who have been fed using this practice?

The reason I ask this is we recently purchased two (1.1) baby Mojave's from a smaller breeder and he was trying to feed them on an every 3 day schedule. The female had three meals and the male 2 meals before we got them. We have kept them on the three day schedule with the intention of dropping them back to 4-5 day schedule around 300 grams then every week at 600 grams. These are definitely keepers in our collection, but I just want to make sure I am not doing something that is going to have long term affects on them.

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It doesn't look like I am much help here, as I don't have a good answer to this question either. Mostly I can't answer, because I have never power fed any of my females. I have occasionally put a female on a 5 day feeding schedule, but have not seen a reason to put size on them quick, as they will not mature for at least 18 months (minimum).

Thanks for all the information! I love this site!


Just curious......what does an obese BP look like?


My girl is under weight and I've assit feed her a few times trying to get her back on track (I've also corrected my tank thanks to everyone here). But when she starts eating on her own I'm thinking power feeding would be a good idea? She's 52 grams.

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Originally Posted by Isis

Just curious......what does an obese BP look like?

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Excess skin between scales is a good way of knowing if your bp is obese.

Here's my take...... powerfeeding to me is when a snake is eating you put another prey item in its mouth right behind it so it swallows both. If I have a young snake that eats and 3 or 4 days later is cruising for food, I will feed it. Folks, these snakes have been at this a lot longer then we have. They know more about them then we do. Pay attention to your snakes.

P.S.: This is my take on the subject and I'm not looking to get into a peeing contest with any book quoters

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Originally Posted by PhillyBoyInTN

Here's my take...... powerfeeding to me is when a snake is eating you put another prey item in its mouth right behind it so it swallows both. If I have a young snake that eats and 3 or 4 days later is cruising for food, I will feed it. Folks, these snakes have been at this a lot longer then we have. They know more about them then we do. Pay attention to your snakes.

P.S.: This is my take on the subject and I'm not looking to get into a peeing contest with any book quoters

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One thing you might find interesting: I've mentioned this exact hunger test on here before. Very many people pointed out that "cruising" for food is not necessarily an air-tight way of gauging food need. Since then, I have found that there are definitely snakes that will actively over-eat if you let them.

Not trying to start a peeing contest :-) Just sharing a past experience. But, without getting into aforementioned contest, I would add that the "in the wild" type of logic needs to be applied carefully. This is because our snakes are not in the wild. Take people for example. Given bountiful amounts of food for (practically) free, a large percentage will willingly eat until they become obese. Some house cats will do so as well. Also, it is well established that widespread obesity is a consequence of modern society (i.e. not a factor with "wild" people). What's the difference? Well, I think its exercise. Its my personal opinion that the effects of caging are not well understood. BP's may spend most of their time in holes in the wild but I'm quite sure that nobody's dropping rodents in for them. They have to *work* to eat. If they want to eat more - they have to work more. And, if they are real pigs, they may have a hard time finding rodents at all for a while!

Now - a question for the early posters:

Isn't it true that the adverse affects of over-feeding take years to manifest? I've seen on other forums guys say that they had BP's die at 7 from over-feeding in the first two years of their life.

I'm not accusing anybody of lying or anything - I'm just curious if the claims of whether or not there are ill effects take this sort of timespan into account.

Here is a photo of as close as I could get to the idea of Obese:

"Excess skin between scales is a good way of knowing if your bp is obese."

Hopefully you can see what the photo is trying to portray.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...s/DSCN1715.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...s/DSCN1716.jpg

By the way, this female is not obese.. She is just getting ready to give me a huge "present" soon.

I have a few young males that I give a rat pup to as often as they want one. I keep a close eye on them, and if they were to get to the point that I thought they were "obese", I would back off, but as long as they are processing it and growing, I'm gonna feed them as much as they want to eat.

I am no nutritionist, but I am educated.

I say no; powerfeeding often leads to obesity which leads to early death.m Plus, it's not natural. In the wild, BPs often can't find food for many weeks. They are built to eat every week or two, and as with any animal, changing its natural build-up never ends well.

Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by syearout

I have a few young males that I give a rat pup to as often as they want one. I keep a close eye on them, and if they were to get to the point that I thought they were "obese", I would back off, but as long as they are processing it and growing, I'm gonna feed them as much as they want to eat.

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If you offered them a rat pup every day, some may take it every day as a natural feeding response.
Does that mean it's healthy or responsible of the keeper? No.
A snake doesn't 'want' to eat. They eat to live, and have that natural instinct.

It has been studied that it's stressful on the heart of a snake to feed it more than twice a week. Honestly, that alone, is enough for me to not do it just because of selfishness on a humans part to want to breed it earlier.

It's not fair to the animal.
Same reason why some dogs can eat themselves to death and not realize it.

Ok, i know that this is probably a myth, but if you power feed a BP can it get as large as say a boa? or if you just feed them more then once a week for young and more then say 10 to 15 days for an adult can they get bigger then the normal 4 to 6 feet?

The genetics of the snake would determine how large and the rate at which it will grow. Once you reach the snake's limit on the amount of food that it can metabolize, that is when you start to see obese snakes.

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Originally Posted by Lunawf

Ok, i know that this is probably a myth, but if you power feed a BP can it get as large as say a boa? or if you just feed them more then once a week for young and more then say 10 to 15 days for an adult can they get bigger then the normal 4 to 6 feet?

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I would say that is a myth. I offer food to my babies every 4-5 days, adult girls every 5-7 and adult males every 7-10. Some eat every meal, some don't. They are all pretty normal sized....

Anyone have any photo examples of pinheads?

Great post learing alot of stuff here :salute:

In terms of power feeding the way I see it for babies that are always hungry,for example my cinnies are about 74 grams and eat on rat fuzzies and by the 3rd day their ready to strike at nething that comes near the rack smelling like food.So in case like that I feed them every 4 to 7days,once they reach over 500grams I feed them sm rats every 7 to 10days and the next day if they still look hungry I give them one more smaller sized rat.I have never had any over fed ball python nor have I had a BP throw up.

Power feeding is ok as long as you don't over do it. By over doing it I mean feeding the snake before it poops. Snakes have slower metabolisms and and shouldn't eats every couple of days.
Their body can actually outgrow their intestines. Which will cut their lifespan in half. They are also susceptible to fatty liver disease.

Everyone wants their snakes to grow fast but would you rather have a healthy snake?

Just remember.
Feed the snake.
Wait for poop.
Feed again.

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Originally Posted by Darkice

Their body can actually outgrow their intestines. Which will cut their lifespan in half.

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Can I get a citation on that?


I'm kind of in the same boat as Philly, ie I've always considered "power feeding" to be, in essence, tricking the snake to take more food than it would on it's own (ie the sneaking one food item behind another to trick the snake into taking both). For clarity, I personally refer to what most of this thread is talking about as "fattening" (ie offering as much as the snake would take on it's own). Within my collection, I feed babies more often than adults and have had periods in which certain individuals were offered food more often than their age-group peers (usually if they were picky eaters or slow growers). As with everything, moderation is key. I see no reason to constantly feed a snake just to put additional size on them if the snake is healthy and growing at a steady rate, proportional to its peers.

My .02

~Kat

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Originally Posted by Darkice

...By over doing it I mean feeding the snake before it poops. ...

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Gosh, I feed my adult snakes 80-90g rats every 7-10 days and many times they haven't pooped yet. I do not consider this power feeding.

I don't pay attention to when my snakes poop. I feed most hatchlings every five days. I feed hatchling males that I want to breed the same year that they hatched every 3 or 4 days. I feed all sub-adults and adults every seven days. If I want a sub-adult female to gain a little weight before breeding season, I will toss a second rat in after she has eaten the first one.

I feed all my snakes every 7 days, hatchlings to adults. they all get two adult mice or if available appropriate sized rat pups. Would this be considered underfeeding, esp. for the hatchling? is this bad for the hatchling? to me he is steadily gaining weight, pees and poos and sheds regularly. I know this thread is about power feeding, but I have to be difficult :P

This is the stats on the hatchling:
lemon pastel male
born: june 08
I acquired him July 9, 08
weight when I got him was 74g
feed two adult mice weekly
current weight on empty: 427g.

I attempt to feed everyone every 6-8 days.

I heard Marc Mandic (markus jayne reptiles) speak on reptile radio about how he thought alot of people use smaller meals than he offers in his once per week feedings.

He basically said that an appropriately sized meal to him leaves a nice sized bump in the middle of the animal. Also he noted that he feeds 45 day old rats to his hatchling ball pythons (assuming I heard him right). For me that's a pretty good sized pup if not a weaned.

I've since adopted a regiment of feeding larger prey items and I've got to say for the snakes that eat consistently and aren't afraid of a larger prey item this has been a really good approach. For both hatchlings and adults. The week off gives them time to defecate and it also gives them a very good sized meal that probably rivals smaller meals in shorter increments.

The ones that eat every week are doing great! I have a pair of pastel axanthics that were born in July and are 450g empty and eat small rats. Then there are others that weren't as consistent who are atleast on weaned.

I like the once a week method myself :)

Hope that helped!

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Originally Posted by Ladydragon

I feed all my snakes every 7 days, hatchlings to adults. they all get two adult mice or if available appropriate sized rat pups. Would this be considered underfeeding, esp. for the hatchling? is this bad for the hatchling? to me he is steadily gaining weight, pees and poos and sheds regularly. I know this thread is about power feeding, but I have to be difficult :P

This is the stats on the hatchling:
lemon pastel male
born: june 08
I acquired him July 9, 08
weight when I got him was 74g
feed two adult mice weekly
current weight on empty: 427g.

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I don't see it as underfeeding, per se. If your snakes are healthy looking, rounded, not skinny, and growing nicely.. and also not obese and sausagelike, then you're doing it right. I sometimes feed my youngsters every 5 days as opposed to 7. I also feed different snakes at different rates, though. This is because, I don't generally feed them when they're in shed. So, if I am feeding everyone on Tuesday, but two are in shed that day, I pass on them until after they have shed. It takes some note-taking of course, but we all do that anyway :)

I actually feed mine in different "formats" as well. For example, I have one adult male that I do not use for breeding. I basically feed him a "maintenance" diet, of one near-adult rat every 10 days. He stays sleek and happy, and since he does not udnergo the physical activity of breeding, he does not get overly fa either.. stays nice and sleek but Not thin and baggy. Now, my breeder girls, I feed a smiilar rat to them every 7 days in the time preceding breeding time.. to stock them up, but not so much that they get too huge.. it is kinda like, reading each snake to see what it needs.

For the '08 females that I plan on breeding once they're big enough, I do feed them more often than the same-aged males. I feed the males roughly every 7 days on adult mice, and the girls, every five days. I do have one '08 male that I want to breed, who gets fed every 5 days as well. I don't feed anyone closer together than 5 days.

IMO, two adult mice for a nice-sized '08 is just fine. Sounds like an impressive growth rate, in fact.I have one that is similarly sized (a holdback from my first '08 clutch) but I only feed him one rat hopper at a time, and he is kind of fat. If your snake is not overly obese, then you method sounds good.

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Originally Posted by Darkice

Just remember.
Feed the snake.
Wait for poop.
Feed again.

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I don't think I can agree with that as a rule of thumb. I'm sure it may work in some situations, but if I only fed my snake when it pooped it would be something like this:

10/10/08
10/12/08
10/17/08
11/04/08
11/23/08
11/30/08
12/01/08
12/13/08

That is the record of my snakes bowel movements since I started keeping track. As you can see that would be a pretty screwed up feeding schedule. Sometimes she defecates 2 times right in a row, sometimes she goes 2 or more weeks. Maybe my girl needs some supplemental fiber to get her "regular"? ;)

I know you don't mean to follow the rule to an exact T, but I think feeding 10-15% body weight every 7-10 days is better. And if you really are determined to get them up to weight (powerfeeding, if you will), try every 5 days, but only under close observation, watching for detrimental effects of overfeeding.

in my opinion power feeding would be when you get it to eat one item and sneak in another item thats either way bigger than normal or the meal is way bigger than it typically should be.

now this doesnt mean giving a snake that could be eating med rats but it will only eat mice so someone sneaks in a small rat behind the mouse.(the meal should be the same size the snake should be eating by size)

now i have had snakes that have actually wanted to eat me every day! those i typically feed them more often than some shy feeders even then i wouldnt try stuffing it with multiple rodents or feeding any sooner than every 3-4 days. but i have adult females that will take med rats more than once a week i would not try it! they only get 1 once a week. sometimes when getting ready for breeding i might give them 1 small rat every 5 days but that depends on weight.

It all depends on what you define as power feeding...

Feeding them heavy (they will stop when they have enough) every fifth day for the first 6-8mths of their life will not do harm in any ways....Well thats just my view....