Am I a bad person!

I got a new ball about 2 weeks ago who seems to be very under weight for his size he is about 1 1/2-2 feet and slim (looks more like a cornsnake that a BP) anyway last week was his first feeding with me. To make a long story short I ended up with one dead mouse that another ball had constricted but didn't eat. So instead of me throwing the mouse away I tried feeding it to the new guy with a pair of thongs.He took the mouse but it had to be the worst strike in history.It was so bad that if the mouse was alive that he would have torn my BP to shreds.So instead of me feeding live today what I was going to do was switch him to F/T but the pet shop didn't have any today so i choose 2 mice and I was going to have them prekilled by the owner well she wasn't in today so what I choose to do was try it myself. Heres where I came up with the question am I bad person.What I did was right before I feed him was I took the mouse and placed the thongs around his neck and squeezed him to dead :( . I didn't see what the big deal was myself because its kinda the same thing the snake does .But my mom and lil brother where treating me lil I was Hitler:taz: Its not like I killed the mice for fun! I killed them myself because I though it was best for my snake! So my question is am I a bad person for this ?!

my mom gets over it now, i feed the boa fresh killed large rats, i have to kill them myself, its not hard, but it is kinda worse, a fast slam to the back of the rats neck on the cement steps that go up to my pool deck and they are pretty much all nerves after that... aka dead... mom thinks im horable, but its the fastest thing i can think of... lol

Heres what I do to the mice I have bred into adults.
I take them by the tail.
Place a paper towel on a hard surface, WHACK WHACK it twice.

Its basically not conscious after that even if it is still alive.. I love all animals. Your not a bad person.. Your method is a bit.. odd though.

An easy way is to put one in a paper bag and hit the bag as hard as you can on the table a few times. :]

Its quick for the mouse, quicker than what the snake does. It's also a lot safer for the snakes.

The only recognized humane way to pre-kill is by a CO2 chamber, and we have stickies in the feeder forum on how to make one.

I don't think that the method that you chose was humane, IMHO.

I have never pre-killed, all of my animals feed live, always have and I've never had an injury as a result of live feeding (and I've fed off over 4000 live prey items to snakes of all sizes).

I don't offer on tongs, I don't feed in a separate enclosure. I allow my animals to hunt from the safety of their hides, and they are swift and efficient hunters.

your not a bad person you just looking out for the health of you snake! i like to use one of those snake bags and spin it around a few times to disorientate the rat before i thump it. in the future just hit it hard against something... like "cement stairs" :) and good looking out for your snake!

It's good that you are looking out for your snake, but I agree with Rabernet that the method you chose was inhumane. The prey was most likely fully conscious while you strangled/squeezed it. That's a tremendous amount of pressure being put on the body, and a lot of fear and adrenaline running through the brain.

When a snake constricts a mouse, they do not strangle it at the throat. They wrap themselves around the entirety of its body, and are able to exert so much pressure on the prey that it stops blood flow. The loss of blood to the brain renders the prey unconscious while the snake finishes the kill.

That, to me, is a big difference. I hope that next time you'll choose another method of pre-killing. They say that CO2 is humane, but Carbon dioxide doesn't allow the animals to slowly drift off to sleep like Carbon Monoxide does. When using CO2, the animal is fully aware that it is suffocating. Please keep that in mind when using CO2 chambers. I completely understand the use of them, and I'm not telling anyone to NOT use one. But I do want everyone to know that it isn't an "easy, pain-and-stress-free" death like most think it is. Some people will also choose to snap the neck of the prey, thus dislocating the brain from the spinal column. But researchers have found that the brain still continues to function for a very short time once it is severed from the body. So neither decapitation nor wringing of the neck are all that humane either.

I suppose that xBrycex's method of disorienting the rat and then whacking it hard enough to render it unconscious on the first blow is the best or most humane method to pre-kill. Allowing the snake to kill the animal naturally is, in my opinion, far more desirable than pre-killing. But I do understand your situation. :gj:

The above info was just a little food for thought while we were on the subject.

Quote:

---

but its the fastest thing i can think of... Lol

---

Wow... or you could just CO2. Boa's aren't picky about that much. Save you some energy and perhaps some guilt if you miss one of these times and render the poor thing in extreme amounts of pain.

Quote:

---

It was so bad that if the mouse was alive that he would have torn my BP to shreds.

---

I understand that this was a rushed killing, but the struggle a live rat/mouse puts up is enough to get the snake to constrict to their full potential.

CO2 is by far the most humane method. I've watched it a dozen of times, and the rats just move around, fall asleep then pass away.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mindibun

It's good that you are looking out for your snake, but I agree with Rabernet that the method you chose was inhumane. The prey was most likely fully conscious while you strangled/squeezed it. That's a tremendous amount of pressure being put on the body, and a lot of fear and adrenaline running through the brain.

When a snake constricts a mouse, they do not strangle it at the throat. They wrap themselves around the entirety of its body, and are able to exert so much pressure on the prey that it stops blood flow. The loss of blood to the brain renders the prey unconscious while the snake finishes the kill.

That, to me, is a big difference. I hope that next time you'll choose another method of pre-killing. They say that CO2 is humane, but Carbon dioxide doesn't allow the animals to slowly drift off to sleep like Carbon Monoxide does. When using CO2, the animal is fully aware that it is suffocating. Please keep that in mind when using CO2 chambers. I completely understand the use of them, and I'm not telling anyone to NOT use one. But I do want everyone to know that it isn't an "easy, pain-and-stress-free" death like most think it is. Some people will also choose to snap the neck of the prey, thus dislocating the brain from the spinal column. But researchers have found that the brain still continues to function for a very short time once it is severed from the body. So neither decapitation nor wringing of the neck are all that humane either.

I suppose that xBrycex's method of disorienting the rat and then whacking it hard enough to render it unconscious on the first blow is the best or most humane method to pre-kill. Allowing the snake to kill the animal naturally is, in my opinion, far more desirable than pre-killing. But I do understand your situation. :gj:

The above info was just a little food for thought while we were on the subject.

---

One of my friends snakes died from a rat bite.
I think if the snake will eat f/t or fresh killed that should be done instead.

The breeder I got my corn snake from told me to never feed live. He told me that one of his adult kingsnakes was killed instantly when the mouse bit the snake directly on the spinal cord.

I don't think its worth the risk. When people say that 'thats what they do in the wild' they don't take into consideration that this IS captivity, not the wild. Things will always need to be different in captivity. :]

As noted... when a snake kills its prey it is far more efficient that what you did.

You may love your snake, but if you are going to kill your own prey then you need to respect and honor the prey as well.

Snakes are efficient at what they do... what you did was not. Maybe that is not what you want to hear, but the reality is that you need to educate yourself regarding humanely euthanizing your feeders.

If you are feeding one animal to keep another alive then you need to respect both of them. Do not be glib about it, and pay homage to what that rat is "giving" you and your snake.

There is plenty of information available that addresses how you can do this humanely... read humanly... and it is your responsibility to take that seriously.

Bruce

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

The breeder I got my corn snake from told me to never feed live.

---

Live feeding must be done responsibly. Sadly too many people do not engage in this, and then all live feeders get a bad rap for it.

I feed close to 20 snakes live every week and have never had a mishap. Not to say it will never happen, but like any other aspect of animal keeping, people need to be attentive and engaged in what they are doing.

Bruce

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loft Lizard

Live feeding must be done responsibly. Sadly too many people do not engage in this, and then all live feeders get a bad rap for it.

I feed close to 20 snakes live every week and have never had a mishap. Not to say it will never happen, but like any other aspect of animal keeping, people need to be attentive and engaged in what they are doing.

Bruce

---

I can see where you are coming from, and I'm going to have to feed my troublesome ball live food.

The problem is, I don't feel like I can do it responsibly because I can't WATCH. I have to leave the room quiet and come back and check to see if its gone.
I don't like doing that, it worries me that something could go wrong.

My corn snake wraps around her pray hardly tight enough to kill it, which is why I would never feed her live. She also doesn't put much effort into striking at it. :oops:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

I can see where you are coming from, and I'm going to have to feed my troublesome ball live food.

The problem is, I don't feel like I can do it responsibly because I can't WATCH. I have to leave the room quiet and come back and check to see if its gone.
I don't like doing that, it worries me that something could go wrong.

My corn snake wraps around her pray hardly tight enough to kill it, which is why I would never feed her live. She also doesn't put much effort into striking at it. :oops:

---

I do not watch my snakes eat either... I feed them appropriate sized prey and I give them the privacy to hunt and consume without interuption.

I do not leave prey in for extended periods of time, and I know each snake and I know at what point I have a refusal on my hands.

I feed younger prey, and I feed by weight. A 30g crawler is not going to do any damage to a BP, and if it takes 2 or 3 prey items to reach the amount I want to feed then that is OK.

I do not feed any of my colubrids live prey either (I should have been more specific in that I feed my pythons live prey), they are not efficient killers, and mine at least, are garbage disposals and will eat whatever I give them.

Having a few FT feeders is great. You can plan for the feeds, buy the right size, and it is more convenient.

Bruce

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loft Lizard

I do not watch my snakes eat either... I feed them appropriate sized prey and I give them the privacy to hunt and consume without interuption.

I do not leave prey in for extended periods of time, and I know each snake and I know at what point I have a refusal on my hands.

I feed younger prey, and I feed by weight. A 30g crawler is not going to do any damage to a BP, and if it takes 2 or 3 prey items to reach the amount I want to feed then that is OK.

I do not feed any of my colubrids live prey either (I should have been more specific in that I feed my pythons live prey), they are not efficient killers, and mine at least, are garbage disposals and will eat whatever I give them.

Having a few FT feeders is great. You can plan for the feeds, buy the right size, and it is more convenient.

Bruce

---

I agree with the younger prey, its a good idea too.
For some odd reason, my mice haven't been breeding, so I have all small adults now, which is rather frustrating. :[

The first time I fed my corn snake a pinkie mouse (I had a lot at the time) she at it whole, without killing it. This I figured was bad internally cause they moved around inside a bit and was horribly inhumane. From then on I made sure I humanely killed the pinkies before feeding them. :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

The first time I fed my corn snake a pinkie mouse (I had a lot at the time) she at it whole, without killing it.

---

Ditto... my sweet goth snow corn consumed a live crawler butt first and alive. You only have to hear that once to know that it isn't something you want to hear again.

Knowing your snakes and knowing what works is critical. That is part of being an attentive keeper.

Bruce

The origional way of feeding pre-kill was to take the mouse or rat by the tail and whack it on the counter trying to break its neck. The invention of the CO2 chamber has changed that. We built a CO2 chamber as a couple of our snakes take F/T and we breed our own rats. Our CO2 chamber is the home grown variety that uses baking soda and vinegar. It is two plastic tubs stacked on top of each other with the mixing chamber on the bottom and the rodent tank on top. Holes drilled in the lid and bottom of holding chamber that are glued together and presure relief hole on one side of the mixing tub. It works, but you can see everything that happens and if you watch it doesn't look very humane either. Adult rats will go crazy for about 30 seconds before finally passing out. If you mastered the old method one whack and it was done.

You did what you felt was best and no one can blame you for that. I had a snake strike a live rat pup once and the rat pup squeeled for over half an hour. The worse part is it was the first group of rat pups home grown for feeders so the wife was a little attached to them. I had to send her out of the house as she was in tears just feeding them let alone hearing this. We all deal with what we have to so we can make sure our snakes eat. No one said raising preditors like this would be easy nor is it for the faint of heart. We all do what we have to.

Now you have more info and a learning experience to grow from and hopefully you take the experience and the advice and go a different direction from now on. No one starts a hobby knowing everything. No one can blame a person for trying to make the best choice on the spot with limited information. It may have been better to come here and ask for suggestions first, but that is water under the bridge and here you are now finding out and that is probably becouse you feel something was wrong with the way you did it. Experience and sharing those experiences are what makes a hobby fun. If you never try new things you will never have any personal experience to share! Next time someone asks how to pre-kill you at least have the experience to say don't try this cause when I did the process was not pleasant! :oops:

I am appalled that some of you actually smack an animal against a hard surface and then actually follow that up with an 'lol'. Jesus. WTH, seriously? So you can kill them humanely with CO2 but you'd rather beat them to death, and possibly have them still alive and suffering until the snake finishes them off?

I personally am disgusted by people who think it's ok, and even funny, to kill a prey item by smacking it against the wall or a table. Aside from CO2, one of the only other HUMANE methods of euthanizing prey items is cervical dislocation. However, if done wrong it can cause a lot of pain and suffering. It's a sad statement on what this world has become when people find it funny to kill an animal.

To the op...I would guess it was not a big deal to you until your mom and sister got upset. If it was a big deal, seeing as how you have access to this thing called the internet, why wouldn't you do some research regarding the best method? Spending 10 minutes looking up the best methods online seemed like too much work?

I use only f/t rats myself so I have not had to pre kill. However, if the situation arose where I needed to pre kill a small number of rats or mice I would place a mouse or rat trap (as appropriate) baited with peanut butter in a tub and place the rodent in the tub. This would be a quicker and more painless method than any of the aforementioned methods. Maybe there is a reason not to do this, as I have never pre killed and am only saying what I would try to do in this situation. Of course this would be too tedious for a large number of prey items. Just a thought.

sdirkle regular traps (i.e. snaptraps) can get VERY ugly. They can catch body parts (a little foot for example). I used one once for a mouse problem and when I found a little foot in the trap I threw them all away. Now a zapper (they walk into it and are electrocuted) maybe somewhat humane for dealing with rodent problems if live traps are not suitable, it only takes a few seconds.

I'm amazed no one has mentioned what, to me and lots of other herp keepers, is the quickest and most humane method of pre-killing-cervical dislocation. When you do it properly, death is intantaneous, by far the fastest I have seen of any method. CO2 doesn't even come close.

It's easy to accomplish. Holding the mouse gently by the tail, lower it onto a surface on which it's feet can readily gain purchase-a screen tank cover works perfectly. The rodent will naturally attempt to pull itself away from your grasp, stretching itself out slightly. At this point, gently bur firmly place a pen, sexing probe, or other long cylindrical object just behind its skull, while at the same time giving a short, sharp tug to the tail. This will easily detach the cervical vertebrae (and thus the spinal cord) from the base of the skull, causing instant death.

It's never pleasant to have to take a life, but such occasions do come up. As responsible keepers we must strive to do our utmost to prevent suffering of ALL our chargers-whether they are pets or feeders.

I always feed live and have since I started keeping snakes. As far as whacking it on the concrete I havent had to do that yet. Most of the time they eat WELL. The CO2 chanber idea is a good idea but has its drawbacks just like everything else. If I ever do have to kill one iit would probably be stunning it. Such a touchy subject, one I havent had to deal with yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BChambers

I'm amazed no one has mentioned what, to me and lots of other herp keepers, is the quickest and most humane method of pre-killing-cervical dislocation. When you do it properly, death is intantaneous, by far the fastest I have seen of any method. CO2 doesn't even come close.

---

Actually it's been mentioned by two different people. Just sayin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darkangel

Actually it's been mentioned by two different people. Just sayin

---

Actually, only Mindibun mentioned it specifically, but then refered to it as "wringing the neck"-which is not the method I would recommend.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BChambers

Actually, only Mindibun mentioned it specifically, but then refered to it as "wringing the neck"-which is not the method I would recommend.

---

Actually, I mentioned it specifically. However, if done incorrectly it can cause pain and suffering to the rat.

This method should NOT be used on adult rats-it definitely WILL cause pain and suffering in that case-it also may not work at all! Only use it on mice and very small rats!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jglass38

I personally am disgusted by people who think it's ok, and even funny, to kill a prey item by smacking it against the wall or a table. Aside from CO2, one of the only other HUMANE methods of euthanizing prey items is cervical dislocation. However, if done wrong it can cause a lot of pain and suffering. It's a sad statement on what this world has become when people find it funny to kill an animal.

---

Look up here ^.....cervical dislocation....

Questions concerning a humane way to take a life has been the subject of debate for a long time. Even lethal injection has people objecting to its use and if it is Humane. Regardless of the method you choose to use someone will object. Go on one of the pet rodent sites and ask the question as to what is the most humane way to kill a rodent and you are likely to be banned from the site! In the end you are taking a life, but that isn't what is being debated here is it. Everyone wants to know the most humane way to take a life and I do not think this can truly be answered until we find someone and kill them using each method and ask them which was the most pleasant, quick, and painless. :weirdface Unfortunately after each method the recipient is dead and can not be asked to give a measure of the pain received. With that said and the fact that some keepers of ball pythons and other snakes do not have any option other than feeding f/t or prekill. With that said the individual has to determine what their humanity dictates is humane enough for them to deal with. Certain methods are obviously torturous and should be avoided, but several other methods create questions as to how humane it is. Even frozen thawed requires some method of euthanasia and if it takes buying them in little prepackaged bags to remove yourself from the act then so be it. Ultimately someone has to kill the rodent for the snake to eat. Be it the supplier you buy the F/T from, you yourself, or the snake someone kills the rodent. You have to choose a method you can accept and let it go. Judging based on the method used will be more torturous than the act itself in the end.

Nothing wrong with that. I recently got into feeding my ball mid-sized rats. When I picked the first one up with the tongs and saw it trying to chew through it's own tail, I realized there's no way I'm putting that thing near Ruth while it's alive. Those guys can get vicious.

Snake > feeder rat. Just treat the food with respect when you kill it, do it as quickly and humanely as you possibly can and I see no harm in it.

I want to thank everyone for there comments. I have thought about the CO2 method but I was wondering if he CO2 that is in the rat /mouse lungs going to effect my snakes?

I think not a bad person-- but probably you should research and choose another way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ExoticsBySize

I want to thank everyone for there comments. I have thought about the CO2 method but I was wondering if he CO2 that is in the rat /mouse lungs going to effect my snakes?

---

You have CO2 in you - you breath it out every time you breath. So no - it won't hurt your snake

I feed live I don't like killing anything the snakes in the wild eat live animals. So I feed live animals. Yeah your animal can get bit or worse if feeding live. As long as you watch them feeding live is almost as safe as feeding dead or F/T. So to me I don't see any point in killing the rat/mouse. The snake is designed for catching and killing its food. They have been doing so for how long? Its a snake let it do its thing. Im not getting on anyone for feeding fresh killed or F/T. Everyone does their own thing and it works for them. Anyways thats my thoughts on the whole thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ama1997

I feed live I don't like killing anything the snakes in the wild eat live animals. So I feed live animals. Yeah your animal can get bit or worse if feeding live. As long as you watch them feeding live is almost as safe as feeding dead or F/T. So to me I don't see any point in killing the rat/mouse. The snake is designed for catching and killing its food. They have been doing so for how long? Its a snake let it do its thing. Im not getting on anyone for feeding fresh killed or F/T. Everyone does their own thing and it works for them. Anyways thats my thoughts on the whole thing.

---

Not all snakes in captivity have the ability to kill mice and rats as they would in the wild. ALL of the other 'wild' factors have been eliminated which means feeding live because its the 'natural' thing could become dangerous. It can be done responsibly yes, but you should not consider that the environment you have for your snake is 'wild' because it is not. This is captivity and is much different.
As said before, my corn snake couldn't kill a live mouse and would be bitten to death every week, she's very lazy about it so I feed her f/t and fresh killed.
My ball, I don't know. I have to feed him live to get him back on track, then maybe we can see if he will move to f/t because its conventionally easier for me and a tad bit safer for him. :]

No, low levels of CO2 in the prey will not hurt your snake... but you must be careful of how you administer the CO2.
Start with a trickle and turn it up a tiny amount every few seconds. This (usually) lets the rodents fall into a stupor before they die so they don't really feel anything. Blasting the CO2 will make their bodies react. I have seen this personally at the zoo I worked at when they taught me about gassing animals for prey or to be put out of their misery(small animals of course!).

And I agree that larger rats should never be killed via CD! Their vertebra are to...strong and thick I guess is best, and it's not the quick painless death it is in smaller rodents. Currently I use CD on my mice to PK them for my snakes, but I have all the equipment for a CO2 chamber for the switch to rats.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Not all snakes in captivity have the ability to kill mice and rats as they would in the wild. ALL of the other 'wild' factors have been eliminated which means feeding live because its the 'natural' thing could become dangerous. It can be done responsibly yes, but you should not consider that the environment you have for your snake is 'wild' because it is not. This is captivity and is much different.
As said before, my corn snake couldn't kill a live mouse and would be bitten to death every week, she's very lazy about it so I feed her f/t and fresh killed.
My ball, I don't know. I have to feed him live to get him back on track, then maybe we can see if he will move to f/t because its conventionally easier for me and a tad bit safer for him. :]

---

I'm not saying keeping my snakes in a tub is like being in the wild. I'm saying that snakes are designed to catch and kill their food. For the most part most snakes know how to do that. Yeah there are ones that don't for whatever reasons. And yes they have to be fed whatever they will eat to keep them alive and healthy.

I have bred corns and If the babies are started out on live then for me 95% of the time they had no trouble killing their mouse/rat. I don't know what if anything the snakes get out of hunting for their food. I would think it benefits them in some way even just a little. Yes I feed live I have also had a few little bites here and there. Nothing to bad and I know it can be bad.

Some will say killing a mouse/rat is wrong or whatever. Even if you feed live in a way your still killing the rat/mouse if you think about it. Or at least assisting a bit. I guess what I was trying to say was. The snakes are designed to catch and kill their food. So why not let them? If they will take live.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ama1997

I have bred corns and If the babies are started out on live then for me 95% of the time they had no trouble killing their mouse/rat.

---

All I will say to this is: hatchling corn snakes take newborn pinky mice...there is no threat or danger to them with pinks, and they are rather easy to subdue.

If anything, it's being said that adult mice and especially rats are better offered as FT or PK, even better when the snake is a lazy one and either isn't sure how to kill the rodent or doesn't want to. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argentra

All I will say to this is: hatchling corn snakes take newborn pinky mice...there is no threat or danger to them with pinks, and they are rather easy to subdue.

If anything, it's being said that adult mice and especially rats are better offered as FT or PK, even better when the snake is a lazy one and either isn't sure how to kill the rodent or doesn't want to. :)

---

I agree with both of you. I don't think its wrong to feed live but when the snakes are in need of adult animals to eat, it can get dangerous.. I would think more so with rats because they're bigger, smarter, and have much worse of a bite. :[

I'm feeding my corn today and I could swear she knows it.. shes been out wandering all day. :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

One of my friends snakes died from a rat bite.

---

I know someone that fed a F/T to his snake and the snake died!

Does this mean people should not feed F/T? :rolleyes:

The bottom line is to feed what works and what is convenient to the owner, but to do so RESPONSIBLY.

There is no Live vs F/T debate.

I feed over 100 of preys each month and none of my snakes ever sustained any injury.

Usually when there is a problem and a snake dies, it ultimately comes back down to the owner and his methods.

If done responsibly both live and F/T can be done safely, if done irresponsibly both can be dangerous.

Honestly, in my opinion, I don't think you're a "bad person".
Nobody WANTS to kill another animal, but you were looking out for your snake. Ball pythons need mice/rats to survive, it's part of the food chain; natural.
Though I also think, if you are going to pre-kill them, you may want to try one of the other methods. I do agree with some other people that the way it was done was not... the best.
Many people are giving you are hard time about it... Take it to heart, but don't take it too personally. You did what YOU thought was right, though now you know it wasn't the best choice.

I buy mine pre-killed/frozen.
I don't think I could kill one of them myself, but I understand why other people do it.
And the best method, is, obviously, the one that causes the mouse/rat the least amount of pain.

Like I said, this was all in my opinion, I don't want to cause a fight on the thread over it :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

I know someone that fed a F/T to his snake and the snake died!

Does this mean people should not feed F/T? :rolleyes:

The bottom line is to feed what works and what is convenient to the owner, but to do so RESPONSIBLY.

There is no Live vs F/T debate.

I feed over 100 of preys each month and none of my snakes ever sustained any injury.

Usually when there is a problem and a snake dies, it ultimately comes back down to the owner and his methods.

If done responsibly both live and F/T can be done safely, if done irresponsibly both can be dangerous.

---

:rofl: I need you to PLEASE tell me how the F/T killed the snake. Was it too big or something?! I don't know HOW someone could mess that up.. I mean.. come on..

I totally agree. I just don't feel safe doing it. I have to sometimes, but I try to avoid it. My mice bite me.. I don't want them to do the same to my snake..

Some people however, do not know how to feed live responsibly. Which is why, I recommend trying f/t or pk for beginners just because they may not know exactly what to do. If it doesn't work, and if they have future snakes more than likely it won't work once or twice, then they'll have to come onto a site like this and learn. :]

F/t prey can easily damage or even kill a snake if fed improperly. If the prey item isn't thoroughly thawed, it will rot in the snake's digestive tract causing a regurgitation or possibly death if the snake is unable to regurge.

The limbs and nails on f/t rodents are generally harder/less pliable because of the onset of rigor mortis, and may scrape the inside of the snake's mouth or esophagus, causing an infection which can lead to an abscess. If the infection is left long enough, the bacteria can lead to sepsis, which is a guaranteed death without massive amounts of strong antibiotics.

Your snake has evolved over millions of years to be very efficient at hunting and killing prey. I've seen my snakes take a bad grab every so often, and even if the mouse is able to bite, the snake knows that and will wrap tighter or wrap another coil around to immobilize that mouse. Their epidermis is tougher than you think, snakes aren't delicate little flowers with paper-thin skin. Rodent nails aren't going to leave huge gaping wounds in their skin and minor bites aren't going to affect them as long as they have a decent immune system.

SO! Feed appropriate sized prey items(adult mice or nothing larger than a small rat-55-65g in weight) and the snake won't have any trouble. Feed large and jumbo rats and that's where you get into problems. Pre-scenting the room prior to feeding is also a very important aspect in feeding live or f/t.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

F/t prey can easily damage or even kill a snake if fed improperly. If the prey item isn't thoroughly thawed, it will rot in the snake's digestive tract causing a regurgitation or possibly death if the snake is unable to regurge.

The limbs and nails on f/t rodents are generally harder/less pliable because of the onset of rigor mortis, and may scrape the inside of the snake's mouth or esophagus, causing an infection which can lead to an abscess. If the infection is left long enough, the bacteria can lead to sepsis, which is a guaranteed death without massive amounts of strong antibiotics.

Your snake has evolved over millions of years to be very efficient at hunting and killing prey. I've seen my snakes take a bad grab every so often, and even if the mouse is able to bite, the snake knows that and will wrap tighter or wrap another coil around to immobilize that mouse. Their epidermis is tougher than you think, snakes aren't delicate little flowers with paper-thin skin. Rodent nails aren't going to leave huge gaping wounds in their skin and minor bites aren't going to affect them as long as they have a decent immune system.

SO! Feed appropriate sized prey items(adult mice or nothing larger than a small rat-55-65g in weight) and the snake won't have any trouble. Feed large and jumbo rats and that's where you get into problems. Pre-scenting the room prior to feeding is also a very important aspect in feeding live or f/t.

---

I didn't know that about the nails being tougher!
Interesting. :]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Venenito_X_Remedito

Many people are giving you are hard time about it... Take it to heart, but don't take it too personally. You did what YOU thought was right, though now you know it wasn't the best choice.

---

I do not think anyone is giving the OP a hard time... they are giving them information. That is a good thing...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

I agree with both of you. I don't think its wrong to feed live but when the snakes are in need of adult animals to eat, it can get dangerous..

---

I agree with SI on this. Feeding smaller prey. I feed my corn FT but she can take several live crawler rat pups over a larger FT. But out of respect for the pups I do not feed them.

Do they pose a threat to her (?)... not at all.

As far as snakes in captivity lacking a killer instinct. I do not really buy that. Snakes are not domesticated like cats and dogs, etc. I really doubt that this early on we have bred out a killer instinct. And being that snakes are still being pulled from the wild, I doubt the bloodlines are that *clean* yet.

bruce

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

The only recognized humane way to pre-kill is by a CO2 chamber

---

So it's not humane to kill a rodent by giving it a quick whack, but it is humane to feed live to your ball python and let it die slower? I knowing whacking it may seem inhumane, but the fact of the matter is, it's quick and easy. Quicker than feeding live even. Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with feeding live. I'm just saying killing it quickly with a whack is no worse, it might even be MORE "humane."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yeahyeah

So it's not humane to kill a rodent by giving it a quick whack, but it is humane to feed live to your ball python and let it die slower? I knowing whacking it may seem inhumane, but the fact of the matter is, it's quick and easy. Quicker than feeding live even. Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with feeding live. I'm just saying killing it quickly with a whack is no worse, it might even be MORE "humane."

---

Snakes kill quickly and efficiently. Whacking very often doesn't. There is a reason why smashing a rat against a concrete floor didn't make the list of humane euthanization methods.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yeahyeah

So it's not humane to kill a rodent by giving it a quick whack, but it is humane to feed live to your ball python and let it die slower? I knowing whacking it may seem inhumane, but the fact of the matter is, it's quick and easy. Quicker than feeding live even.

---

Really? Most scientific evidence shows that the constricting of the snake literally stops the flow of blood, making the animal pass out quickly.

When executed perfectly, a head lock has the potential of knocking you out within seconds. Your putting pressure on your jugulars, not the throat. This stops blood flow to your brain and can make you pass out under a minute. You'll also feel the effects immediately.

Snakes have had million of years to knock out their prey efficiently and quickly. The longer a prey item is struggling and scratching, the more damage a snake is going to take. Snakes have evolved into very effective and efficient killing machines with the power of their constriction.

So yes, whacking is very inhumane compared to live feeding, so is stunning. The chance for error is high, and if it takes more than one whack, you did it wrong.

I agree, co2ing is more humane and more guilt free. If i ever whacked one of my rats I do not know if I could live with myself. I put one of my pups in with lesser and turned around to see it looking at me and WHACK lesser had it:( I like the dry ice approach personally. Id feed bigger prey live but Lesser has already been bit twice!

I would have gone with live. I have switched over all my snakes to live. Some were raised on FT and it took them a few feedings to learn how to strike properly. A bad strike on a mouse is not that big a deal. They may get a few scratches but they will learn very quickly (one or two feedings) how to do it right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Most scientific evidence shows that the constricting of the snake literally stops the flow of blood, making the animal pass out quickly.

---

Should have said stops "them from breathing. Many hypothesize the stopping blood flow enough to cause cardiac arrest..." (It's a monday :oops:)