Screwed over at the reptile shop.

About 5 or 6 weeks ago I decided to finally buy my first ball python. I researched it a lot before I picked him up. I went with a lot of advice I found on here on setting up a habitat, not buying from PetSmart, etc. I decided it was really important for me to buy a captive bred snake as well. Looking around my local area (St. Louis) I was able to find a shop that had exotic reptiles. I called beforehand to verify that these baby balls they had were indeed captive bred, which the person on the phone said they were. When I bought the snake, I asked again and it was reiterated that these were indeed, captive bred. Fast forward 5 weeks....

I notice a couple days after feeding that he is swelling up almost sausage like. I take off of work a half day and take him to the reptile vet where I live. He examines the snake and says, yeah..this little guy is sick for sure. The vet helps him regurgitate his food that was not digested and then had to help the snake pass his bowels and urates. After manually doing this for the snake the swelling was gone. Fecal exam proved negative. I took the snake home Friday and the only advice the vet could give me was to keep an eye on him and to try feeding him again Sunday.

Today my wife and I decide to go look at geckos at the shop I had originally bought our snake. This is the first time Ive been back to this shop as its sort of a drive and Im trying to save gas. I look to see how many of the baby balls are left and notice there is one left and theres a sign on the enclosure that says these snakes have been marked down to 25 dollars. I paid 40. I ask why the price reduction and Im told that wild caught reptiles are hard to sell....

She then goes on to tell me that several of the snakes from that batch that they received have been brought back dead or dying. Symptoms....you guessed it. They swell up and die. She showed me one of the live ones that had been returned and the area by the vent looked ready to burst. I told her what the vet did so she tried to help the snake pass its bowels and urates. The snake passed and the swelling went away. While we were discussing the issue that the snake was sold to me as a captive bred (she even admitted that the employee probably lied, she seemed to imply he was shady) A CUSTOMER CAME IN WITH A DEAD PYTHON. Guess what...it was from the same group and it swelled up and died.

My first question is...what is wrong with these snakes. I dont want to return mine as Im quite attached to him. Has anyone seen this before?

Second question...I was told to call back Tuesday and talk to the owner who will refund me the money for the snake. However, since I was lied to I feel that he should also refund me 70 dollars for the vet visit. I would not have bought this snake had it been advertised correctly as wild caught. Is it too much to ask for store credit for that?

Third question...if my snake keeps swelling up obviously he has some kind of deformity or sickness and should probably be put down. I do not want him to be put down inhumanely and if it comes to that, I want the breeder to tell me how he will put the snake down when I return it, or to pay for a vet to put it down humanely.

Am I asking for too much? How would anyone else here handle this situation? I appreciate your responses.

Edit: My snakes vent area is already beginning to swell up again.

I can't tell you what is wrong with your snake but heres what I think..

You should get the money back that you paid for the snake - but I would not get store credit from there since they obviously lie to customers and who knows if any of their other animals have illnesses.

If the breeder is not a vet than I would not trust them putting the animal to sleep (who knows what they are going to do with it) - and what breeder are you talking about? I thought these animals were wild caught.

Well this is a sucky situation for sure... I had a similar experience with my first ball, who I suspect died of IBD and displayed many of the symptoms associated with it. Your first question... I have no idea. Only a vet could tell you that for certain. Is your vet a reptile vet? Your second question... I understand why you believe he should pay for the vet visit, but I don't think it's gonna happen. If he takes back the snake refunds you the money, his responsibility ends there unless there was some prior guarantee. It would be very easy for him to just say he misspoke. Your third question... If the snake was put down by the breeder it would probably be in a freezer.

You said you were wanting to keep him bc you're attached. What you might want to ask yourself is whether you're prepared to keep trying to pay expensive vet bills for an animal whose siblings are dead or having the same problems.

I had a horrible first experience buying from a chain pet store that ultimately led to its death. I wish I had not bought on an impulse and gotten a healthy snake from a breeder. Things may improve with your snake, but who knows...

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Originally Posted by edie

I can't tell you what is wrong with your snake but heres what I think..

You should get the money back that you paid for the snake - but I would not get store credit from there since they obviously lie to customers and who knows if any of their other animals have illnesses.

If the breeder is not a vet than I would not trust them putting the animal to sleep (who knows what they are going to do with it) - and what breeder are you talking about? I thought these animals were wild caught.

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The guy breeds snakes as well. The salesperson told me that the baby balls were captive bred. Tonight I found out that he purchased these babies caught from the wild.

i live in st louis and it sounds like you went to the exotic arc off bayless? if so they have 2 tanks with ball pythons.1 tank is captive hatched and the other tank is captive bred.i bought one of the captive hatched for 25 and it didnt eat for a few weeks and was very under weight.in that batch of captive hatched there was a few that looked really bad and there was a few that looked great.i picked one that wasnt looking so good just as a experiment/rescue and the few weeks ive had her shes done great.one question,do you buy your feeder mice there?i noticed someone buying a few yesterday and there was 3 dead mice in the tub.you might have gotten a sick or infected mouse.there is another exotic pet store that only sells captive bred animals and if any of those dont eat it becomes cobra food so your pretty much garunteed a healthy snake from there.the 2 ive gotten from there have been excellent.its called exotic pets and its off kingston and telegraph pretty close to the jb bridge.

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Originally Posted by Coins

The guy breeds snakes as well. The salesperson told me that the baby balls were captive bred. Tonight I found out that he purchased these babies caught from the wild.

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I understand that - but the breeder did not produce these animals and if they were not quarantined before being put for sale than it does not seem like this is a very competent breeder and I would not trust them doing anything with the snake - if the breeder does not even know about quarantining animals before selling them to the public than you can bet that he will not humanely put an animal to sleep - I don't even know if you can get the proper medicines to put an animal to sleep unless you are a vet.

do you remember wat tank you picked from?was it on the counter or was it in the tank near the floor across from the counter?

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Originally Posted by Butters420

i live in st louis and it sounds like you went to the exotic arc off bayless? if so they have 2 tanks with ball pythons.1 tank is captive hatched and the other tank is captive bred.i bought one of the captive hatched for 25 and it didnt eat for a few weeks and was very under weight.in that batch of captive hatched there was a few that looked really bad and there was a few that looked great.i picked one that wasnt looking so good just as a experiment/rescue and the few weeks ive had her shes done great.one question,do you buy your feeder mice there?i noticed someone buying a few yesterday and there was 3 dead mice in the tub.you might have gotten a sick or infected mouse.there is another exotic pet store that only sells captive bred animals and if any of those dont eat it becomes cobra food so your pretty much garunteed a healthy snake from there.the 2 ive gotten from there have been excellent.its called exotic pets and its off kingston and telegraph pretty close to the jb bridge.

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Yes, I bought the snake from Exotic ARC. When I bought the snake there was only one tank that had them listed at 40 dollars. Today there are two tanks..one marked captive and one marked wild caught. Funny how you knew right off the bat where it was.

:O

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Originally Posted by edie

I understand that - but the breeder did not produce these animals and if they were not quarantined before being put for sale than it does not seem like this is a very competent breeder and I would not trust them doing anything with the snake - if the breeder does not even know about quarantining animals before selling them to the public than you can bet that he will not humanely put an animal to sleep - I don't even know if you can get the proper medicines to put an animal to sleep unless you are a vet.

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Yeah, Im not sure of they were quarantined or not. I do not want to put the animal to sleep myself, I will pay a vet to do it if he is just going to put him in a freezer.

so witch tank did you buy from?

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Originally Posted by Butters420

do you remember wat tank you picked from?was it on the counter or was it in the tank near the floor across from the counter?

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It was on the counter.

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Originally Posted by Coins

Yeah, Im not sure of they were quarantined or not. I do not want to put the animal to sleep myself, I will pay a vet to do it if he is just going to put him in a freezer.

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It does not sound like they were quarantined if all the animals started coming in sick all of a sudden at the same time.

You cannot put the animal to sleep yourself - if the animal is in pain and there is no other alternative than getting the animal euthanized - than the veterinarian is the only option you can really count on.

ok,those are the captive hatched.and yes at first they were $39 and they werent selling any at all.when they dropped the price i snagged one up.at first it was keeping me up at night knowing the snake hadnt eatin since it got here to the states so 5 days after i got it it refused the meal.a week after that it ate and since then she has been great!gaining weight perfect shed so i went there a few weeks later and seen they dropped the price and i was seriously thinkin of getting another because they are so much better looking pattern wise than the cb's.i asked in the first post did you buy the feeder mice from there,did you?

No. I buy the feeder mice from The Tye Dyed Iguana in O'Fallon. I do not think it has anything to do with the feeder mice as there are a bunch that have died or been returned from that group.

the people that buy snakes from there usually buy there mice there as well.im sorry your having this problem,i got one from the same batch and she is very well.

Hey,

This may help...

A few years ago i brought in some really high end captive hatched babies. I hold all my c.h. for 4 feedings before posting them for sale. Basically a month quarintine. One of the coolest het ivories i brought in would eat then swell up, and then poo a little, but he always stayed slitly swelled (he passed away). I noticed a few other snakes doing the same. I really had no idea what it was. Then one of the snakes that sweeled died and i got concerned. I lost 2-3 more from the group. The only snake i had sold out of that group went to Tracy B. I called her immediately and told her what happened and she said she had noticed hers doing the same. She told me it was a protazoan infestation and all you needed was some Flagil.

All you do is take a Flagil pill and cut off a tiny chip of it. 2mm x 2mm and open its mouth and put it in the back of its throat. It worked great.

I will say its very contagious and im glad i have a seperate bulding for quarintine. My employee was being lazy in his cleaning, i figured this out when it started being passed all through that rack. And i had him show me how he was cleaning the rack. After Tracy told me how to get rid of it, i did not lose another snake. It did take about 3 weeks to knock it out of that rack completely. Every snake that had it and was treated is doing great today.

I would wear gloves while cleaning that ones tank and i would clean it last if you have any other snakes.

If you need a tablet i may have some left, shoot over your # in a pm and when im at the wharehouse tomorrow ill check for you and mail one off to you.

Well, I would keep an eye on your snake. The lady at the shop told me that these snakes were getting sick all at once. She also did say that they had bought a few clutches of wild snakes so maybe yours was from a different clutch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coins

Yes, I bought the snake from Exotic ARC. When I bought the snake there was only one tank that had them listed at 40 dollars. Today there are two tanks..one marked captive and one marked wild caught. Funny how you knew right off the bat where it was.

:O

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ya same here

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Originally Posted by NextWorldExotics

Hey,

This may help...

A few years ago i brought in some really high end captive hatched babies. I hold all my c.h. for 4 feedings before posting them for sale. Basically a month quarintine. One of the coolest het ivories i brought in would eat then swell up, and then poo a little, but he always stayed slitly swelled (he passed away). I noticed a few other snakes doing the same. I really had no idea what it was. Then one of the snakes that sweeled died and i got concerned. I lost 2-3 more from the group. The only snake i had sold out of that group went to Tracy B. I called her immediately and told her what happened and she said she had noticed hers doing the same. She told me it was a protazoan infestation and all you needed was some Flagil.

All you do is take a Flagil pill and cut off a tiny chip of it. 2mm x 2mm and open its mouth and put it in the back of its throat. It worked great.

I will say its very contagious and im glad i have a seperate bulding for quarintine. My employee was being lazy in his cleaning, i figured this out when it started being passed all through that rack. And i had him show me how he was cleaning the rack. After Tracy told me how to get rid of it, i did not lose another snake. It did take about 3 weeks to knock it out of that rack completely. Every snake that had it and was treated is doing great today.

I would wear gloves while cleaning that ones tank and i would clean it last if you have any other snakes.

If you need a tablet i may have some left, shoot over your # in a pm and when im at the wharehouse tomorrow ill check for you and mail one off to you.

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Thanks for that response. Can this be passed on to humans? I will shoot you my number on a PM. I will be calling my vet tomorrow again with this information. I really appreciate this.

Pretty sure it cant... I did work with them without gloves on and didnt have a problem. Wouldnt touch the poo and then lick my fingers though:D

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Originally Posted by NextWorldExotics

Pretty sure it cant... I did work with them without gloves on and didnt have a problem. Wouldnt touch the poo and then lick my fingers though:D

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Damn, too late....

:D

lol!!!!!!!!!

Update:

Took him back to the vet today with the knowledge gained here. He is on Flagyl and another antibiotic. The vet could not find protozoa in his stool or urine but found LOTS of bacteria. He said the lack of protozoa does not mean anything due to the fact it could be the type that lives in tissue. When I called him this morning he also said that he is dealing with other snakes he assumes from the same place as they are all showing the same symptoms. Some of these snakes have already died. He also said it must be extremely contagious. I called EXARC (place I got the snake) and the dude was like, yeah, whatever, call the owner Tuesday about it. I tried to tell him I wasnt calling to gripe but that his snakes could be in danger but he didnt really care. The vet thinks its some kind of bacteria that had a long incubation period as all of these snakes started having symptoms at the same time.

He thinks my snake will be o.k since I was proactive in getting him treatment. I really hope so. He is my bud!

Wow, It seems this has worked out well.
Let us know if he fully recovers! It is a wonderful thing that the knowledge of some people on this site helped to save a pet that someone really cares about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coins

Update:

Took him back to the vet today with the knowledge gained here. He is on Flagyl and another antibiotic. The vet could not find protozoa in his stool or urine but found LOTS of bacteria. He said the lack of protozoa does not mean anything due to the fact it could be the type that lives in tissue. When I called him this morning he also said that he is dealing with other snakes he assumes from the same place as they are all showing the same symptoms. Some of these snakes have already died. He also said it must be extremely contagious. I called EXARC (place I got the snake) and the dude was like, yeah, whatever, call the owner Tuesday about it. I tried to tell him I wasnt calling to gripe but that his snakes could be in danger but he didnt really care. The vet thinks its some kind of bacteria that had a long incubation period as all of these snakes started having symptoms at the same time.

He thinks my snake will be o.k since I was proactive in getting him treatment. I really hope so. He is my bud!

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Im glad it looks good!
What other antibiotic? Giving animals (or people) more meds then they need is a problem with vets (and doctors) these days.... Having worked with mammals (monkeys , big cats, etc.) before i worked with reptiles i learned the less you have to treat an animal and the less meds you give the better! Stress free environment and Flagil was all i needed. I only had to treat each snake once too. The more you mess with it the more stress you ad the worse the problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coins

Update:

Took him back to the vet today with the knowledge gained here. He is on Flagyl and another antibiotic. The vet could not find protozoa in his stool or urine but found LOTS of bacteria. He said the lack of protozoa does not mean anything due to the fact it could be the type that lives in tissue. When I called him this morning he also said that he is dealing with other snakes he assumes from the same place as they are all showing the same symptoms. Some of these snakes have already died. He also said it must be extremely contagious. I called EXARC (place I got the snake) and the dude was like, yeah, whatever, call the owner Tuesday about it. I tried to tell him I wasnt calling to gripe but that his snakes could be in danger but he didnt really care. The vet thinks its some kind of bacteria that had a long incubation period as all of these snakes started having symptoms at the same time.

He thinks my snake will be o.k since I was proactive in getting him treatment. I really hope so. He is my bud!

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Good job! Glad no one decided to put it down without getting a vets opinion. Let us know if the snake makes progress!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coins

No. I buy the feeder mice from The Tye Dyed Iguana in O'Fallon. I do not think it has anything to do with the feeder mice as there are a bunch that have died or been returned from that group.

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Those mice are good quality - my hub often supplies Matt when he runs short. Sort of biased there LOL

We intend to sell some baby BPs to Tye Dyed soon, but we want to make sure they've eaten once or twice, both captive hatched and captive bred. We really have a lot of respect for Matt and, well, Aphrodite :), and he and hub have a good thing going. Matt really tries to keep his stock clean and readily available.

Honestly, there's a guy in Collinsville who used to have quality normals, but we haven't heard anything about him in years, but he was good to do business with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coins

Update:

I called EXARC (place I got the snake) and the dude was like, yeah, whatever, call the owner Tuesday about it.

He thinks my snake will be o.k since I was proactive in getting him treatment. I really hope so. He is my bud!

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I'm glad he's looking better. A lot of those owners hire snot-nose zit-faced teenagers that just want a job and don't care. If he did the recent reptile show, he might be relying on the wrong person to inform him of problems in the store.

Make sure you do call the owner. Hate to think of all those poor sick snakes, but if you want another BP, talk to Matt first at Tye-Dyed. He's a good dude.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

It is a wonderful thing that the knowledge of some people on this site helped to save a pet that someone really cares about.

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So true! The internet is so amazing! We can communicate with people all over the world and get instant answers; imagine 40 years ago when everyone depending on 1 or 2 outdated books or a local vet that may have never treated that type of problem before.

I found protozoal listed on an aussie gov site discussing common snake health issues. Rather interesting page http://www.epa.qld.gov.au/nature_con.../?format=print

--------------------------------------------

Protozoal Gut Infections

There are a variety of different types of protozoa that can be found in the intestinal system of reptiles. Amoeba and trichomonas are the most common.

These protozoa can cause serious illness in snakes, particularly captive snakes. This condition is highly infectious. Enclosures, bags used to hold reptiles and any equipment used on these reptiles should be thoroughly cleaned before being used on another reptile.

Some animals can be asymptomatic (not displaying symptoms) carriers.

The general signs of protozoa gut infections are loss of appetite, droppings soiling the cloaca and tail, regurgitation and, occasionally, bloating of the stomach region. A vet can make a diagnosis from a fresh faecal sample or cloacal swab.

Vets can dispense Metronidazole (Emtryl) to treat this condition. It is an oral drug that is best given via a tube. If the animal seems healthy and is feeding well, inject the drug into the animal’s prey.

Glad to hear your new snake is getting better. It's a shame that so many farmed snakes are brought over. I think a good number of them probably don't make it.

There are a few breeders in St. Louis and they all probably have cb normals to sell. As a matter of fact, I have a whole clutch that are getting their first mouse today.... ;-)

Update!

My snake is not swelling up so badly. He gets oral antibiotics and a shot. After that he gets a soak and I help him express his bowels. Yeah, its pretty gross. He seems to be doing better. Five more days of antibiotics and he should be going on his own.

I really wanted to do this update to talk about EXARC, the place I bought the snake. I talked to the owner today who went out of his way to help me out. He explained how I got the snake. He said he put the snakes in the wrong place and did not notify his day shift guy. He took full ownership of the situation and I was really impressed. He helped me out with the vet situation and also gave me a het for albino male (07) captive bred ball. He is hatching some more het for albinos in a couple weeks and is also going to give me great deal on one of the females. Im really impressed by his accommodations.

Hi,

Thanks for the update. :gj:

Glad to hear he seems to be well on his way to a long and happy life.:)

I applaud the shop owner for doing the right thing and taking responsibility as well - far too many people try and wiggle out of things instead without realising how fast word of that spreads.


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coins

Update!

My snake is not swelling up so badly. He gets oral antibiotics and a shot. After that he gets a soak and I help him express his bowels. Yeah, its pretty gross. He seems to be doing better. Five more days of antibiotics and he should be going on his own.

I really wanted to do this update to talk about EXARC, the place I bought the snake. I talked to the owner today who went out of his way to help me out. He explained how I got the snake. He said he put the snakes in the wrong place and did not notify his day shift guy. He took full ownership of the situation and I was really impressed. He helped me out with the vet situation and also gave me a het for albino male (07) captive bred ball. He is hatching some more het for albinos in a couple weeks and is also going to give me great deal on one of the females. Im really impressed by his accommodations.

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glad to hear your buddy will be ok.i took mine to the vet today from the same batch and all he found in the fecal was mite eggs.he said the mites are probly from the reptibark and is really no big deal.he also gave me 2 syringes of stuff for worms since she is only 61 grams and not gaining weight.hopefully this guy knows wat he was doing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coins

Update!

My snake is not swelling up so badly. He gets oral antibiotics and a shot. After that he gets a soak and I help him express his bowels. Yeah, its pretty gross. He seems to be doing better. Five more days of antibiotics and he should be going on his own.

I really wanted to do this update to talk about EXARC, the place I bought the snake. I talked to the owner today who went out of his way to help me out. He explained how I got the snake. He said he put the snakes in the wrong place and did not notify his day shift guy. He took full ownership of the situation and I was really impressed. He helped me out with the vet situation and also gave me a het for albino male (07) captive bred ball. He is hatching some more het for albinos in a couple weeks and is also going to give me great deal on one of the females. Im really impressed by his accommodations.

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im really glad that this man and you have came to an agreement and he's been so helpful and accommodating. im very sad to hear your snake is suffering but he knows you're helping him, and will appreciate it and be your friend for years to come. you're doing an awesome thing by saving this snakes life, and you're doing what some people just couldn't do (obviously, by all the poor dead snakes you mentioned!!! sad!) hopefully you don't run into any more problems and things start looking up from here! congrats on your new het!

pix?