Snakes, dogs, cats, horses-- anthropomorphism

I have read a few threads on this forum about snakes not having emotions, not having preference for their owners or liking their owners and the general thought seems to be that they operate on instinct alone and prefer to rest, eat, drink, make babies, etc.

I am not sure I completely agree. I think they do get used to and feel secure with their owners and may even be entertained when handled, that handling is not a negative expereince for them *necessarily*. I think we do not know what they feel, think, or experience, but we can watch their behavior. My snake is relaxed with me but not with strangers. What do I conclude from that? Well, the snake apparently knows my scent and knows I am not a threat. Does that translate to "liking" me? I don't know. I don't know that we have to define things in those terms. But I am not averse to the idea that a reptile can prefer certain people or that a reptile can enjoy things. We don't know. I guess you could say I am an agnostic about reptile emotions. I can't prove they exist or that they don't and so I watch and observe and I am open to what I can learn.

So, on to other critters. Do you who strongly believe that reptiles cannot have preference for their humans, etc-- do you believe that dogs, cats, horses, etc have emotions?

I wanted to add a little more. MAYBE when we define our own emotions we are ignoring the instinctive more primiticve repsonses in US that are at the base of our emotions. Think about it. Who do you like? Who are your friends? Is it possible that feelings of security and survival are at the basis of our preferences too? What about things we dislike? or people? Is dislike of another person rooted in fear, lack of security, worry about change? Is dislike just a response to perceived threat? Do WE have emotions?

If we look at emotions in humans, I think we often are reacting based on instinct. So does that mean our emotions are not seperate from instinct and survival? Or does it mean that insticnt and survival create emotional reactions? I do not think emotion is exclusive to humans. I think emotion is a response to instinct and that other animals do have it. They may not experience it the same way we do, but in my own observations, I see it.

So, somebody argue with me. Or strongly agree. Or something. ;)

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Originally Posted by ZinniaZ

I wanted to add a little more. MAYBE when we define our own emotions we are ignoring the instinctive more primiticve repsonses in US that are at the base of our emotions. Think about it. Who do you like? Who are your friends? Is it possible that feelings of security and survival are at the basis of our preferences too? What about things we dislike? or people? Is dislike of another person rooted in fear, lack of security, worry about change? Is dislike just a response to perceived threat? Do WE have emotions?

If we look at emotions in humans, I think we often are reacting based on instinct.

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What you've mostly said is neat I suppose. But, I do have to point out that psychology does not recognize humans as having instincts, but rather drives.

I think this is the same old story as ever.

And knowing that there are several other threads on this subject, you chose to create a new one? :P

Here is one of my own favorite posts...

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Do we have to tag such specific words like "love" and "commitment" to a snake when it would easily fit in the category of "I feel no stress with you" or "you stress me the flip out"

Again, I still stand by my opinion that any behavior from a snake can be put into one of two broad categories of: Fear or secure.
I believe they can feel either stressed and fearful, or secure and content. Whether it's towards their enviroment or keeper. They strive to find a secure setting, and strive to find food because they are basing their actions on their instincts.

If a snake feels secure and safe around you, then take the compliment. I dont think you should try and complicate it by labeling it as affection or love. Even in the simplest sense, I don't think they have any emotions. That doesnt mean it's a robot, it's able to make its own decisions, but that doesn't mean it's "reasoning" things out

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And to add to it

On the topic of DOGS!

Cesar Milan, one of my favorites, explains that no matter what you think, your dog does not love you unconditionally. Wow, never truer words spoken! When he pees on the couch, he's not thinking about what he's putting you through emotionally. He's not thinking about the disappointment you have in him, but he DOES know that if he pees on the carpet, he will be punished for it.

Is there such a thing as unconditional love? Is it something you feel, or an idea you put in your own head?




Also...

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

When does open-minded cross over into gullibility?

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Can snakes feel emotions? I've seen no evidence to suggest that.

Not to mention you are comparing apples and oranges. You are comparing domesticated mammals to a nondomesticated reptile.

On that note, what is the defining common fold in domesticated animals? What is the key to domesticating any animal?

Is it their capacity to learn new behaviors?

Here's a link to the wiki on domestication... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication

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Not to mention you are comparing apples and oranges. You are comparing domesticated mammals to a nondomesticated reptile.

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Well, that is why I posted this thread-- I wanted to see if the collective "y'all" see a difference in the supposed emotions of reptiles, domesticated animals, and humans. Anthropomorphism is one of my favorite discussions. I am not seeing any threads comparing snake instincts to say, the instincts of cats. I wonder if there is a difference really.

I wonder if labelling our own emotions even is useful or if we waste our time thinking about our emotions and should be thinking instead in terms of survival, security, and stress. Solve those-- solve emotions?

Wow-- I never thought my dogs had unconditional love. About the only creature I know of that unconditionally loves is a newborn infant for its mother. And that goes away...

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl View Post
Do we have to tag such specific words like "love" and "commitment" to a snake when it would easily fit in the category of "I feel no stress with you" or "you stress me the flip out"

Again, I still stand by my opinion that any behavior from a snake can be put into one of two broad categories of: Fear or secure.
I believe they can feel either stressed and fearful, or secure and content. Whether it's towards their enviroment or keeper. They strive to find a secure setting, and strive to find food because they are basing their actions on their instincts.

If a snake feels secure and safe around you, then take the compliment. I dont think you should try and complicate it by labeling it as affection or love. Even in the simplest sense, I don't think they have any emotions. That doesnt mean it's a robot, it's able to make its own decisions, but that doesn't mean it's "reasoning" things out

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I agree with everything you have said here-- BUT-- I disagree with your conclusion because I think we label emotions incorrectly. Emotions are just reactions. They are not reasonable or reasoned responses. We attach words and reason to our emotions in an attempt to define them and to define ourselves. But they are not reasoned at all. Anger and hatred come from stark fear and threat. The fear and the feeling of being threatened are not responses that we reason through and the anger that results follows close on the heels of the fear.

I am saying the labels we put even on our OWN emotions are just manufactured. We name our emotions because we can talk but the emotions exist without any reasoning ability on our part as reactions. In the same way, other animals have reactions which we then try to label based on our own experience. We can call them emotions or not. I am trying to get at teh fact that we do not even adequately understand our human emotions. I do not think labelling emotions makes them any different. What we DO with the thought process following an emotion is different and involves reasoning. But the first reactions are perhaps very similar to the reactioncs of animals. Maybe I am making no sense at all.

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Originally Posted by ZinniaZ

Wow-- I never thought my dogs had unconditional love. About the only creature I know of that unconditionally loves is a newborn infant for its mother. And that goes away...

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Funny. I find infants to be incredibly selfish. :)

True-- maybe unconditional love is selfish. ?

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Originally Posted by ZinniaZ

True-- maybe unconditional love is selfish. ?

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I think all love has a small touch of selfishness ;)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I think all love has a small touch of selfishness ;)

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I don't place conditions on my love. I may not particularly like that person much, for whatever reason, but I would gladly trade my life for them. Call me quirky. :rolleyes: ;)

Zinnia, not trying discount how you feel but your argument for the possibility of snakes having emotions comes crumbling down when you realize that there is a physiological basis for emotion. Emotions are not just some thing that is floating around out there and takes place in humans and other primates (and maybe even other mammals). Emotions are produced in areas of the brain, and reptiles quite simply LACK these areas of the brain where higher-order reasoning take place.

From a biological standpoint, its quite simply impossible for snakes to experience emotion in the way that you describe. I encourage you to research the topic and you'll find that the reptilian brain is one that simply responds to stimuli and functions on instinct. Emotions are just not possible with the set of equipment that nature has provided them.

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Zinnia, not trying discount how you feel but your argument for the possibility of snakes having emotions comes crumbling down when you realize that there is a physiological basis for emotion. Emotions are not just some thing that is floating around out there and takes place in humans and other primates (and maybe even other mammals). Emotions are produced in areas of the brain, and reptiles quite simply LACK these areas of the brain where higher-order reasoning take place.

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That is fine-- but I am not actually trying to argue that reptiles HAVE emotion. I am arguing (but more musing than trying to prove a point) that maybe emotions are just a human construction. Maybe emotions such as we describe and believe we have-- are ONLY instinct and drive based reactions.

If that is true-- which I think it is somewhat-- then it follows that other creatures have similar instincts and drives so we could construct emotions for them just as we have for ourselves. My argument is that maybe emotions are just instinctive repsonses. We think we feel happy, sad, love, hate, but those feelings are related to survival and to feelings of security and stress.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Zinnia, not trying discount how you feel but your argument for the possibility of snakes having emotions comes crumbling down when you realize that there is a physiological basis for emotion. Emotions are not just some thing that is floating around out there and takes place in humans and other primates (and maybe even other mammals). Emotions are produced in areas of the brain, and reptiles quite simply LACK these areas of the brain where higher-order reasoning take place.

From a biological standpoint, its quite simply impossible for snakes to experience emotion in the way that you describe. I encourage you to research the topic and you'll find that the reptilian brain is one that simply responds to stimuli and functions on instinct. Emotions are just not possible with the set of equipment that nature has provided them.

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Originally Posted by ZinniaZ

That is fine-- but I am not actually trying to argue that reptiles HAVE emotion. I am arguing (but more musing than trying to prove a point) that maybe emotions are just a human construction. Maybe emotions such as we describe and believe we have-- are ONLY instinct and drive based reactions.

If that is true-- which I think it is somewhat-- then it follows that other creatures have similar instincts and drives so we could construct emotions for them just as we have for ourselves. My argument is that maybe emotions are just instinctive repsonses. We think we feel happy, sad, love, hate, but those feelings are related to survival and to feelings of security and stress.

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Emotions are a chemical cascade produced by certain areas within the brain. R-Complex brains don't have the 'emotion center'.

Hm. Thinking.

Snake:
Out on a rock in africa. Giant bird swoops down, but misses. Snake flees. Later, snake on rock again. A branch from a tree falls nearby, looking very much like a bird. Snake flees. (Or freezes-- whatever the snake's instinct is in that situation.

Kitten:
Laying out on the deck. Strange dog enters yard, leaps onto the deck, grabs at kitten, narrowly missing. Kitten flees. Later, on deck again. A small child runs up on the deck and approaches kitten, looking much like the earler dog. Kitten hisses and flees.

Is there emotion in either creature? Does the snake fear? Kitten? Are you saying that because the snake doesn't have adrenalin coursing through he isn't feeling anything?

I'm suggesting that you learn a little bit about the brain..... :rolleyes:

Instinct or Schminstink?

Based on your argument, which seems to be that we have reactions for which we are not responsible for initiating and that these responses are due to the stimuli of fear or anger or security (completely taking as an aside that we CAN control being in situations in which fear or anger or security are likely to be present or absent) and you have decided to call these instinctive (which you also seem to question) reactions emotional responses.

There isn't much that scares me, but what does doesn't make me mad.

There's a few things that make me mad, not afraid.

Security is different things to different people and as there is no constant, measuring it, quantifying it, it is virtually impossible to have a measurable constant to base whatever measurements you take to determine if "security" has been achieved.

I suspect that at one time we did have instincts with which we were in very close communion. I suspect that a couple of hundred years ago you would have been closer to the mark you seem to be aiming for.

Now though, with all the culls that have reproduced, all the removal of threats that honed our instincts, the need to have them at all, instincts that is, I don't think they are as evident or prevalent as in the past.

Anthropomorphism is an interesting quirk that many people have. I firmly believe that some mammals experience some of the same, or at least very similar, feelings that we do. We've seen it in dogs, whales, hefalumps and others. They do seem to have traits that could be directly experienced by us and ours by them.

Reptiles and feeling as I think mammals can? Mayyyyyybe with some of the bigger monitors or tortoises, maybe even cobras though I am very skeptical of them. I do not think the rest of the reptile world feels things the way we do though.

I sort of wish they could but then again, would your snake be angry/scared enough at you to want to assert it's dominance by some threatening behavior? Would your snake harbor a grudge for keeping it in a rack? Would your males see you as a threat to their ability to procreate? Would they join the Rodent Liberation Front and sue for equality?

Maybe it's best that they don't feel as we do.

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Originally Posted by ZinniaZ

Hm. Thinking.

Snake:
Out on a rock in africa. Giant bird swoops down, but misses. Snake flees. Later, snake on rock again. A branch from a tree falls nearby, looking very much like a bird. Snake flees. (Or freezes-- whatever the snake's instinct is in that situation.

Kitten:
Laying out on the deck. Strange dog enters yard, leaps onto the deck, grabs at kitten, narrowly missing. Kitten flees. Later, on deck again. A small child runs up on the deck and approaches kitten, looking much like the earler dog. Kitten hisses and flees.

Is there emotion in either creature? Does the snake fear? Kitten? Are you saying that because the snake doesn't have adrenalin coursing through he isn't feeling anything?

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What you just describe isn't an emotion in either creature. It's the fight or flight response.... It's a biological response to stress perceived as a threat or danger.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Can snakes feel emotions? I've seen no evidence to suggest that.

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Well snakes can stress out so wouldn't that be connected to emotion? Something like fear, put a snake on the ground and stand over it, I've never seen a snake remain calm with a person doing that. I know my Blood python will freak out if I do that and he will get very defensive and start hissing.

Perhaps a better example might be handling a snake for too long. Mine can get squirmy and tense when I handle him for long periods of time so that could be anxiety.

Or would that be related to something else?

Instinct behavior connected to survival, not emotion.

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Originally Posted by starmom

I'm suggesting that you learn a little bit about the brain..... :rolleyes:

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Hey there.
No rolly eyes necessary.

It is possible to have a conversation about the definitions, personal vs scientific of what exactly emotion IS. I'm not threatening your world view. I'm not saying you are wrong. I am questioning the definition itself. You say emotion is the chemical cascade. I say emotion is a construct, chemical cascade or NO. The chemicals are what we experience. I am questioning whether that experience is the only definition of emotion and whether what we define as emotion is in fact only a reaction to stress, to security, to fear.

People all over discuss anthropomorphism in all species of animals and believe (some) that no animals save hum,ans have the capacity for emotion. I challenge that. I challenge that humans have the monopoly on emotion and in fact whether we have actual emotion or of we have invented words only to set ourselves apart from the animals. We ARE animals. I believe that the concept of anthropomorphism is overzealously used.

You can talk about brain structure and chemistry. Yes the brains are different. But that does not mean that our concept of emotion, feeling, perception is unassailable. Is emotion instinct? Maybe. Is emotion anything but human made? Maybe not. These things are worth discussing without derision.

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Originally Posted by Earl

Well snakes can stress out so wouldn't that be connected to emotion? Something like fear, put a snake on the ground and stand over it, I've never seen a snake remain calm with a person doing that. I know my Blood python will freak out if I do that and he will get very defensive and start hissing.

Perhaps a better example might be handling a snake for too long. Mine can get squirmy and tense when I handle him for long periods of time so that could be anxiety.

Or would that be related to something else?

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You're guessing that it is something you recognize, ie anxiety, when it may well be a simle urge to be NOT where the snake is or perhaps it is not enjoying being handled or perhaps your soap or aftershave are irritating to taste or smell. Maybe it gets the urge to poop when handled.

There are a plethora of possibilities other than those anthropomorphic.

However, mere numbers do not communicate to correctness.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

...Anthropomorphism is an interesting quirk that many people have. I firmly believe that some mammals experience some of the same, or at least very similar, feelings that we do. We've seen it in dogs, whales, hefalumps and others...

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Especially the Hefalumps :rofl:

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Originally Posted by ZinniaZ

You can talk about brain structure and chemistry. Yes the brains are different. But that does not mean that our concept of emotion, feeling, perception is unassailable. Is emotion instinct? Maybe. Is emotion anything but human made? Maybe not. These things are worth discussing without derision.

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What is emotion? What is happening to your bodies when your happy or sad? Why do people take pills for depression? Why do people feel really happy on shrooms, and cry when coming down? Why does alcohol make us overly emotional... laughing or tripping out and beating the face in of the guy next to us?


It's all physiological. If an animal lacks the area of the brain able to put out the hormones or fire those neurons... are we still going to say they feel emotions like animals that have that area?

Now it's starting to sound superstitious.

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Originally Posted by starmom

Instinct behavior connected to survival, not emotion.

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Ahh gotcha.

I don't understand your post :confused:

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Originally Posted by starmom

I don't understand your post :confused:

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I mean I see, I understand. I'm totally with ya starmom. :)

D'oh!!!! :gj:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Why do people feel really happy on shrooms, and cry when coming down?

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This must be a chick thing. Wait, that's implying something. Maybe that females are more emotional, which is true. But, if that is true, then they are different from men. If they are different from men, with whom they are also so very similar, then the differences between women and reptiles, and the anthropomorphism thereof, must be even greater.

Based on this, reptiles cannot feel emotions.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

This must be a chick thing. Wait, that's implying something. Maybe that females are more emotional, which is true. But, if that is true, then they are different from men. If they are different from men, with whom they are also so very similar, then the differences between women and reptiles, and the anthropomorphism thereof, must be even greater.

Based on this, reptiles cannot feel emotions.

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:D

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Originally Posted by wilomn

This must be a chick thing. Wait, that's implying something. Maybe that females are more emotional, which is true. But, if that is true, then they are different from men. If they are different from men, with whom they are also so very similar, then the differences between women and reptiles, and the anthropomorphism thereof, must be even greater.

Based on this, reptiles cannot feel emotions.

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Ummm Wes, what type of logic is that?? :rolleye2:
Women differ emotionally from men. And women and men are similar. Therefore women are different from reptiles?????

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Originally Posted by starmom

Ummm Wes, what type of logic is that?? :rolleye2:
Women differ emotionally from men. And women and men are similar. Therefore women are different from reptiles?????

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Not JUST different, but even MORE different than we had first granted the possibility to.

If women are even more different from men than is usually recognized, then it is not a great leap to; therefore a woman is even more different from a reptile than a man, even though she is more different from man than generally assumed.

The more she is, different, the more she is, different.

See?

I get it--- though it is a stretch of Socratic logic ;)

What I don't understand is how some can say for a FACT that a snakes brain is not capable of producing emotions. We don't know everything! Granted, the snakes brain is different than a mammals or a human. We are still learning new things about the human body every day-how can we say that we know anything for sure about an animal who is not able to tell us if we are right or wrong? I understand the basics of how the brain of a human works, but I would not expect any other animals brain to work the exact same way. They are not humans... If the whole brain being different issue is what people are going off of then- DUH...they are not the same animal so why should the brain be the "same". Sometimes I wonder if people are led into the whole way of thinking that if you can't find it, then it must not exist! People would much rather say something doesn't exist, than admit that they are not able to figure it out.

Just my :2cent:

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Originally Posted by ZinniaZ

Hey there.
No rolly eyes necessary.

It is possible to have a conversation about the definitions, personal vs scientific of what exactly emotion IS. I'm not threatening your world view. I'm not saying you are wrong. I am questioning the definition itself. You say emotion is the chemical cascade. I say emotion is a construct, chemical cascade or NO. The chemicals are what we experience. I am questioning whether that experience is the only definition of emotion and whether what we define as emotion is in fact only a reaction to stress, to security, to fear.

People all over discuss anthropomorphism in all species of animals and believe (some) that no animals save hum,ans have the capacity for emotion. I challenge that. I challenge that humans have the monopoly on emotion and in fact whether we have actual emotion or of we have invented words only to set ourselves apart from the animals. We ARE animals. I believe that the concept of anthropomorphism is overzealously used.

You can talk about brain structure and chemistry. Yes the brains are different. But that does not mean that our concept of emotion, feeling, perception is unassailable. Is emotion instinct? Maybe. Is emotion anything but human made? Maybe not. These things are worth discussing without derision.

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If you are saying that emotion is not just a physiological process, then what is it? You are heading in an almost spiritual direction with this that is pointless to have a discussion about because you have nothing more to offer us than just your own thoughts and feelings. Thats great that you feel that way, but don't expect anyone to level with you when you can't provide any substance to back it up beyond your own thoughts. I can prove that reptiles don't have the parts of the brain needed to experience emotion as you define it. How can you even begin to support your 'feeling' that emotion might be more than a biological process? You are trying to argue the existence of something for which there is no tangible evidence for. The only 'evidence' that you've provided this far is your own anthropomorphism of snake's behavior....

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

You are trying to argue the existence of something for which there is no tangible evidence for. The only 'evidence' that you've provided this far is your own anthropomorphism of snake's behavior....

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Anyone else picturing a snake biting its own tail?

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

If you are saying that emotion is not just a physiological process, then what is it? You are heading in an almost spiritual direction with this that is pointless to have a discussion about because you have nothing more to offer us than just your own thoughts and feelings. Thats great that you feel that way, but don't expect anyone to level with you when you can't provide any substance to back it up beyond your own thoughts. I can prove that reptiles don't have the parts of the brain needed to experience emotion as you define it. How can you even begin to support your 'feeling' that emotion might be more than a biological process? You are trying to argue the existence of something for which there is no tangible evidence for. The only 'evidence' that you've provided this far is your own anthropomorphism of snake's behavior....

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reread what I wrote. The part of your quote that I bolded is the exact opposite of what I am saying. I did not say emotion is more than a biological process. I did not say I have a feeling that emotion is anything spiritual or undefinable. I, in fact, questioned the existence of emotions as we have chosen as humans to label them. I am not positing that snakes FEEL or LOVE or HATE. I posted this because I wanted to discuss, number one, the definition of emotion and wehther, as humans, we label things as emotions that are in fact nothing more than drives and instinct driven behavior. Number two, I was curious about whether a snake forum would have the same take on anthropomorphism as on the horse forum that I frequent, and three, because I thought it was interesting to compare the different processes of reptiles, domesticated mammals, and humans. Nothing more.

Please do not read more into what I have written than is there. You are misinterpreting my point of view.

And, I definitely did not start this topic to rabblerouse or cause argument. I thought it was interesting stuff to talk about.

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If you are saying that emotion is not just a physiological process, then what is it? You are heading in an almost spiritual direction

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I am not saying that. I am questioning which part of the process we LABEL as emotion and whether or not it IS emotion or it is just something we have invented.

There is nothing spiritual about this. This (to me) is about the human capacity to invent oneself. To use words and ideas to create things that are not there. In OURselves and in creatures. My basic premise is that we are all animals. Humans are animals. That's my premise.

We may be far from our basic animal survival roots, but we are still that animal.

I really find it funny people saying its Fact that reptiles cant feel emotion, We know they have instincts, we know they can reason, we know they have preferences. I beleive there is somethin like a 30 page thread on this, and the only answer we can get is we cant know. Im not implying anything, except we cant say anything definite, Science is a string of theories that are proven over time, but it takes one oposite result to destroy a theory that may have been build for a long time. Nothing in science is definite, as there is always something that can contradict it, so saying anythings definite in a scientifical sense, is just someone spitting out there theories and views, and opinions as fact, and really being pretty darn ignorant. Someone who beleives they dont, but excepts theres a possability, beleives they can, but excepts the possability are the ones that dont apply to the ignorance. I dont mean to be mean, just it gets pretty rediculous

As for emotions, two theories that are kinda out there.

A. We apply human emotions to everything, as we are human, as wes pointed out, even men and woman are different in emotions. But to say that they dont have emotion can only imply they dont have human emotion. Heres a comparision to display my idea.

Dolphins and sharks, they both are similar, they both are similar sizes (depending on species), both swim, both eat fish, both have similar structure, yet ones a fish and has gills, anothers a mammal and breathes air. They both fufil similar niches, being totally different. Two things can do the same thing, but be not related at all.

Second is that most situations bring on a response, its instinct, like the flight or fight response. Now over time humans adjust to situations, and we have emotions to replace instinct. <<<< has no grounds, just adding to the mass of theories and philosiphy here.

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Anyone else picturing a snake biting its own tail?

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Seen it.... :P:8:

As for dogs, id suggest anyone watch the science of dogs if its ever on Nat Geo again, anyway, it shows how they evolve to survive with humans, to there enviorment, in order to thrive. they learn to read human signals, like pointing, where "scientifically" smarter animals like apes, cant. So they may have closer emotions to ours because they have been selectivly adjusting to our behavior through breeding, The domestic fox experiment in siberia shows this.

Anyway, there are no definites, just theories, so i really find it sad to see people push theory as fact, and the fact there is no evidence as evidence. You cant prove a snake definitivly lacks emotion, the only thing that can be proven is they definitivly have it. Reasonable doubt baby...:colbert::rolleye2::gj::D

I agree its an interesting topic, just hope it can stay level headed....

Ben

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Originally Posted by Crazydude

I really find it funny people saying its Fact that reptiles cant feel emotion, We know they have instincts, we know they can reason, we know they have preferences.

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Can snakes reason? What is the definition of reason? ;) Maybe they can to an extent, but not reasoning out based on logic as we understand it.

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As for emotions, two theories that are kinda out there.

A. We apply human emotions to everything, as we are human, as wes pointed out, even men and woman are different in emotions. But to say that they dont have emotion can only imply they dont have human emotion. Heres a comparision to display my idea.

Dolphins and sharks, they both are similar, they both are similar sizes (depending on species), both swim, both eat fish, both have similar structure, yet ones a fish and has gills, anothers a mammal and breathes air. They both fufil similar niches, being totally different. Two things can do the same thing, but be not related at all.

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Comparing apples to oranges here...

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Second is that most situations bring on a response, its instinct, like the flight or fight response. Now over time humans adjust to situations, and we have emotions to replace instinct. <<<< has no grounds, just adding to the mass of theories and philosiphy here.

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Might have been better to say humans evolved into logical reasoning beings to replace our instincts. We humans have lost the physical prowess of our ancestors because we became cunning and outsmart our prey. We learned new tricks. Work smarter, not harder.

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As for dogs, id suggest anyone watch the science of dogs if its ever on Nat Geo again, anyway, it shows how they evolve to survive with humans, to there enviorment, in order to thrive. they learn to read human signals, like pointing, where "scientifically" smarter animals like apes, cant. So they may have closer emotions to ours because they have been selectivly adjusting to our behavior through breeding, The domestic fox experiment in siberia shows this.

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Good point, but gorillas haven't been domesticated last I knew, and that domestication has a lot to do with how dogs live with us.

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Anyway, there are no definites, just theories, so i really find it sad to see people push theory as fact, and the fact there is no evidence as evidence. You cant prove a snake definitivly lacks emotion, the only thing that can be proven is they definitivly have it. Reasonable doubt baby...:colbert::rolleye2::gj::D

I agree its an interesting topic, just hope it can stay level headed....

Ben

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I see evidence everyday when I walk into my snake room. :gj:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I see evidence everyday when I walk into my snake room. :gj:

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Is this evidence there for anyone at all to see or is it one of those limited viewing group type of things where only you and certain other able-to-feel-more-than-men-can females are given witness of this evidence?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Is this evidence there for anyone at all to see or is it one of those limited viewing group type of things where only you and certain other able-to-feel-more-than-men-can females are given witness of this evidence?

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You have to pay to play Wes ;)

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Might have been better to say humans evolved into logical reasoning beings to replace our instincts.

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I think it might be more correct to say that our instincts are not at the surface. We still HAVE the instincts. Some suppress instincts and some are more in tune with instinct but we all have them. They are not gone.

I also think that if we were suddenly thrust into situations which were a bit more dire than the day to day starbucks world we live in, our instincts would fire up FAST. We (at least those of us who have access to computers and time to lounge about on forums) are not required to rely on our instinct to survive. If we WERE, we would be far more in tune with them. Our lifestyle suppresses the need.

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Originally Posted by ZinniaZ

I think it might be more correct to say that our instincts are not at the surface. We still HAVE the instincts. Some suppress instincts and some are more in tune with instinct but we all have them. They are not gone.

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Well that's another large disagreement among psychologists. I believe the teachings that humans do not have instincts. It's what I was taught in college and high school, and I still believe it today. :)

That's where the whole free will comes into play. We can always choose what to do. Instincts aren't learned, thought about or reasoned with. We can always choose to control ourselves in face of some major drives or emotions.

Hm.

I have instinctive reactions. Like if my child is being picked on, or if I or one of my kids is about to be hurt, or... Maternal instincts are there. I think humans have fight or flight too under extreme duress.

I did not know this was a debate (among psychologists). !

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Originally Posted by ZinniaZ

Hm.

I have instinctive reactions. Like if my child is being picked on, or if I or one of my kids is about to be hurt, or... Maternal instincts are there. I think humans have fight or flight too under extreme duress.

I did not know this was a debate (among psychologists). !

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Are you sure it's an instinct? Or a learned behavior? Or a drive? Can you choose to do it or not? Did you learn this reaction? Or is it a reflex?


If mothering is an instinct, then why do some mothers not take care of their young? Why do some mothers do unspeakable acts to their young? Why do some mothers do nothing? ;)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Are you sure it's an instinct? Or a learned behavior? Or a drive? Can you choose to do it or not?

Are you saying reactions are instincts? Or the following action is instinct?

If mothering is an instinct, then why do some mothers not take care of their young? Why do some mothers do unspeakable acts to their young? Why do some mothers do nothing? ;)

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I classify as instinct those behaviors whhich are done before I can think about them. The instinct to leap into a pool after my one year old son at the bottom of the pool. Not learned because I had not had to do it before. Not thought about or planned, and quicker than the lifeguards (multiple) present who were also standing by and saw it happen. I have numerous examples of protective instinct and in eahc of them, I was behaving before I knew I was even moving. To me, that is the definition of instinct.

Re: mothers that do not mother-- this happens in all species. I would guess that the instinct to care for one's young can be glitchy. I do not think the absence of instinctive behavior in SOME members of a species means that the behavior is a learned or chosen behavior. I think the lack of instinct is aberrant. (ie, a mother dog that tries to kill her puppies) or maybe a different instinct or drive overrides. I don't know.

As for this:

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Are you saying reactions are instincts? Or the following action is instinct?

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I think the reaction is the instinct.

See, even in animals, you can habituate an animal not to respond to its instincts. We despook horses. We train dogs not to eat small critters that we don't want them to eat. But we would not say those animals do not HAVE the instinct.