Reptile Keeping vs. Reptile Hoarding

People keeping 50 cats (or dogs) in their homes are generally considered "hoarders". Some even believe these people have a predisposed mental illness or 'addictive' personality.

What keeps a general reptile keeper with a rack full of snakes from being labeled a reptile 'hoarder'?

Is it related to the quality of care? ease of care? responsibility required to keep the animal?

Or is it a 1 dog = 10 snakes type balance that makes things acceptable?

Do you believe that there are 'reptile hoarders' out there?

Just looking for opinions on the topic and trying to spark a good discussion ;)

I guess people with a bunch of reptiles that aren't for buisness can be called hoarders.
But maybe they just like wildlife. Most repti keepers don't just keep reptiles.

a hoarder is someone who is constantly obtaining new animals, and not being able to provide adequate care for them. It is not a numbers game. Everyone has their own limits. As long as every animal is receiving the proper care, its not a problem.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

People keeping 50 cats (or dogs) in their homes are generally considered "hoarders". Some even believe these people have a predisposed mental illness or 'addictive' personality.

What keeps a general reptile keeper with a rack full of snakes from being labeled a reptile 'hoarder'?

Is it related to the quality of care? ease of care? responsibility required to keep the animal?

Or is it a 1 dog = 10 snakes type balance that makes things acceptable?

Do you believe that there are 'reptile hoarders' out there?

Just looking for opinions on the topic and trying to spark a good discussion ;)

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You know, I was actually thinking about that.. When I tell people how many I have, the shock on their faces is priceless :O (Kinda like that).

Some people also ask me if its legal.

Depending on the town/area/housing, the answer is no.

I am the crazy snake lady, but I don't feel like I am a horder. I take care of my animals, and they are all individually housed with water and food.

Then again, what is the definition of a hoarder??

Someone who has too many than they can take care of??

My snakes are not breeding like rabbits and running around the house with feral snake babies all over lying in their own excrement. (picture Animal Precinct with snakes??)

I don't think I am a hoarder...

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Originally Posted by _Venom_

I guess people with a bunch of reptiles that aren't for buisness can be called hoarders.
But maybe they just like wildlife. Most repti keepers don't just keep reptiles.

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So if you have alot of reptiles for 'business', what does that make you? What seperates a breeder producing thousands of snakes a year from a 'puppy mill'?

There seems to be a difference in numbers. 30 snakes is acceptable....30 cats is not. Mass producing corn snakes is acceptable......mass producing dogs is not.

I am interested in what makes reptiles different in people's minds.

I am not saying breeding snakes in quantity is wrong or a person with a rack full of snakes in their basement is wrong.

I am just looking for opinions on the difference concerning 'hoarding' with mammalian pets vs. our reptilian pets.

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Originally Posted by halfwaynowhere

a hoarder is someone who is constantly obtaining new animals, and not being able to provide adequate care for them. It is not a numbers game. Everyone has their own limits. As long as every animal is receiving the proper care, its not a problem.

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Then you have to consider the definition of 'adequate care'.

Is keeping 10 snakes in a rack system as adequate as keeping 5 snakes in natural enclosures?

Is being able to interact with one lizard for 30 minutes a day as adequate as interacting with 20 lizards for 5 minutes each per day?

What is adequate? ;)

Reptiles are different , they don't need much.
It would be very hard to walk 30 dogs.
you can have 30 snakes on the side of a wall no probelm with minimal space. It doesn't cause much chaos in your living enviroment.

I think in the end its when the keepers or animals health and well being is being placed at risk simply due to the mere existence of the "pets".

-A keeper maintains a certain number of animals based on their abilities to properly care and feed them animals with out putting themselves or their pets at risk.

-A hoarder keeps a number of animals far beyond their abilities to properly feed and care for. They may truly care for the animals but their pets have far exceeded their abilities to keep the animals while maintaining a healthy environment for themselves and the pets.

I think the definition of a hoarder is someone that constantly acquires new animals without the ability to adequately care for them. I have seen some examples of people that operate "reptile rescue" operations but appear to just be hoarders.

I wouldn't consider someone with 50 cats a hoarder if they were all cared for and didn't negatively affect that person's life or the people around them.

Hoarding: Having more animals than you can care for in your within your own means, often to their or others harm.

Major Collection Syndrome: Keeping animals in proper set ups and husbandry. Animals thriving in your care and when they are sick or ill are immediately taken care. There is no neglect or abuse in this scenario.

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Originally Posted by halfwaynowhere

a hoarder is someone who is constantly obtaining new animals, and not being able to provide adequate care for them. It is not a numbers game. Everyone has their own limits. As long as every animal is receiving the proper care, its not a problem.

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You took the words out of my mouth ;)

this is a really interesting topic :gj:

So the thing that seperates reptiles from mammals in terms of 'hoarding' is our ability to provide 'adequate' care for a large number of reptiles with little effort compared to providing 'adequate' care for a large number of mammals?

I guess that throws the definition of adequate out there again.

Someone that does not think a rack system is adequate housing could label some keepers as 'hoarders'....

Someone that thinks a person should interact with their reptiles for a given time each day could label some as hoarders....

....I guess it all falls back to perspective of the 'right' way to keep the animals.

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Someone that does not think a rack system is adequate housing could label some keepers as 'hoarders'....

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Yea they could but a regardless of the perception their needs are being met in a clean healthy manner for both the keeper and the pet

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

So the thing that seperates reptiles from mammals in terms of 'hoarding' is our ability to provide 'adequate' care for a large number of reptiles with little effort compared to providing 'adequate' care for a large number of mammals?

I guess that throws the definition of adequate out there again.

Someone that does not think a rack system is adequate housing could label some keepers as 'hoarders'....

Someone that thinks a person should interact with their reptiles for a given time each day could label some as hoarders....

....I guess it all falls back to perspective of the 'right' way to keep the animals.

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Don't hoarders usually REFUSE to let any of their animals go? As in they'd freak at the thought of adopting them out or selling?

Where they have a hard time even thinking about letting 1 animal go, because they think in their minds that they are the best care giver to the animal and no Vet's, societies or other people can take them for even a few hours.

Even to the extreme of not getting rid of DEAD animals?

Domestic animals need socialization. A hoarder cannot give adequate attention to 50 dogs or cats. They all may be fed and watered properly but scared to death of strangers or even the owners themselves.

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Some people also ask me if its legal.

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good so im not the only one ahha

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Don't hoarders usually REFUSE to let any of their animals go? As in they'd freak at the thought of adopting them out or selling?

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yeah,
i personally think that a hoarder is some one who has 100+ animals that they cant take care off, but they dont want to get rid of, just because they cant handle it...
possibly even some one with 10 snakes that cant take care of them, they just have them to have them...:colbert:

basically no passion, or care of treatment, just attachment to the fact of having the animal.

http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affe..._hoarding.html

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The HSUS defines an animal hoarder as a person who has more animals than he or she can properly care for. Another defining characteristic is the hoarder's denial of his inability to care for the animals and his failure to grasp the impact his neglect has on the animals, the household, and the human occupants of the dwelling.

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What's the harm if all the animals are cared for humanly and healthy?

I have thought about this many times too. I think the main thing here is not numbers like mentioned before. It how well the animals are cared for, like being fed/water, vet care, socialization (when that applies), adequate shelter, clean living space. With cats and dogs, are they spayed/neutered to prevent over population?
I see nothing wrong with people owning as many animals as they can care for properly.

However, with hoarders there is another problem. They don't have the ability (or mental capacity) to seek help when needed, they feel like they can't find homes for their animals. Some even keep carcasses of passed animals in freezers, or other storage places because they have the inability to part with their animals that they think they love so much. Now these are extreme cases that I have seen, and its not pretty.

Where say most of us, if we come down on hard times, have more than we can care for. We are able to pass a long our animals to others in the form of a sale, or even giving away animals because we are more concerned for the animals health and going to a good home.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

So the thing that seperates reptiles from mammals in terms of 'hoarding' is our ability to provide 'adequate' care for a large number of reptiles with little effort compared to providing 'adequate' care for a large number of mammals?

I guess that throws the definition of adequate out there again.

Someone that does not think a rack system is adequate housing could label some keepers as 'hoarders'....

Someone that thinks a person should interact with their reptiles for a given time each day could label some as hoarders....

....I guess it all falls back to perspective of the 'right' way to keep the animals.

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Not necessarily. There are measurable criteria that can be used to determine if an animal is being cared for adequately without using perspective. If the animal is under/overfed, have sores/lesions, parasites, unkept fur, and behavior problems are all used to determine if an animal is adequately cared for. Mammals need more space, mental stimulation and maintenance in order to prevent any of those criteria from occurring, but reptiles (and snakes in particular) can get by with less. Perspective really has nothing to do with it. Some people think keeping a dog outside is cruel or keeping a dog inside is unhealthy... that really doesn't come into play when determining if an animal is adequately cared for or not.

To me, the biggest sign of a "hoarder" is that they have more animals than they can (or at least do) take care of properly. It might be 50 dogs or cats, but it might also be just a few. I bet there are some well respected dog &/or cat breeders out there that have that many animals, but I don't think they are hoarders. And I agree that it is most likely some sort of disease. There are people that hoard other things, such as stacks of newspapers that they will never look at or use, but they feel some sort of need to keep them.

Similarly, the biggest sign of a "puppy mill" (or kitten mill, or corn snake mill, etc) is when the animals are bred with the primary concern being the number of animals produced. Puppies that come out of puppy mills often do not look very much like the breed that they are supposed to represent, and may have inherited genetic problems. It seems like it would be possible to produce a large number of snakes while still being careful about the quality, not breeding snakes with problems such as kinks, and even keeping track of which ones are het for what. So I would not consider that a snake mill.

More about hoarding as an illness (not necessarily related to animals)... it is called compulsive hoarding and is thought to be related to OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder. If you want to read a freaky and sad story about what happens when it gets really out of hand...
http://www.ocfoundation.org/hoarding...-of-harlem.php

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Originally Posted by kc261

More about hoarding as an illness (not necessarily related to animals)... it is called compulsive hoarding and is thought to be related to OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder. If you want to read a freaky and sad story about what happens when it gets really out of hand...
http://www.ocfoundation.org/hoarding...-of-harlem.php

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Wow, that is an insane story! I can imagine there being people that act that way towards their reptiles. There was a guy down the street from me once who kept goats in his basement and never got rid of the bodies when they died! They stayed in his basement for years, decaying. But his house was so far back in the woods and no one ever visited there so nobody ever saw or smelled anything. I was about 10 when the guy died and they said when they found his body (after his nearest neighbor said they hadn't seen him in weeks) he had some sort of fungus growing from his chest to the ceiling :puke2:. So all that to say yes there are plenty of people out there that could conceivably do this type of thing with reptiles but it's not going to be the people that are active in places such as this where actual husbandry and care is discussed.

Hello all.

First, sorry for my poor English. I'm from Brazil and I can say that here we have both situations. I can not scale that has more on which side. Because it's forbidden to be a "reptile keeper" here in this country (we can only keep Bcc and 2 sp corallus and 1 epicrates), we all have to be "hidden" from the authorities, and do our best to preserve the species, since there are a lot of deforestation and habitat loss and no one in government cares about is what sp kind disappearing or being damaged. It's up to some of us do this work, and still, run the risk of being labeled criminals :(

About trade, there's a large "black market" (dont know how to say these words in this language). But let's say that most keeps the animals at home in good condition, and just going copulation, and consequently, the sale or exchange.

Casey wins the prize for this round. Hoarding isn't really so much about mammals or reptiles, or even dogs or cats. It's widely considered to be a form of obsessive/compulsive disorder, in that the hoarder is obsessed with something, and that obsession totally dominates their lives. It can be animals, old newspapers, dolls, whatever. I've even worked with one person whose fixation was birds' nests. Regardless of what their focus is, they have a complete inability to resist that compulsion to acquire "just one more," to say nothing of how debilitating it would be for them to give up even the most trivial piece of their "collection". There have also been studies done that show hoarding as an addiction, and when it's treated (which is pretty rare), approaching it as an addiction can be very successful.

There really is no perfect answer for how to make the distinction between a hoarder and a keeper, for the simple reason that the human mind is really not all that well understood. If anyone ever really figures it out, I'd love to get an autographed photo of them accepting the Nobel Prize.

With that said, if I were to try to define hoarding vs. keeping from my own personal perspective, I would say it comes down to the perceived value of the "collection". For example, if you have 300 investment quality morphs, all from different lines and breeders, and adding to your collection is a carefully considered decision that is planned and budgeted for, I think you're probably safe. Chances are, you're taking excellent care of those very expensive animals and you're aware of how adding another will affect your lifestyle. On the other hand, if you come home from an afternoon walk with six alligator lizards, two garter snakes, eleven bullfrogs, and a one eyed snapping turtle named Rufus in your pockets... You might just want to consider the possibility that you have some issues.






On second thought, if you've got 300 investment quality BP's, you need serious professional help NOW. PM me, and I'll give you my address so you can send some to me and we'll get you started on the road to recovery!

Well, let's think about it...

30 cats in one house: WAY too many to be healthy for the cats. Two cats may be able to share that small of a territory, but cats need SPACE. The cats will get stressed from the cramped area, fight, breed themselves to death, cause thousands of dollars of damage to a home, etc. The animals are forced to care for their young with little-to-no adequate resources, in a hoarder situation.

Keeping 30 cages in a rack system, everyone has their own spaces. If we're talking about ball pythons, they simply don't need huge amounts of room.

You simply cannot compare hoarding cats to hoarding snakes. Cats are intelligent, snakes are instinctual. If they have proper husbandry, they are happy. It does not matter how "natural" the setup is or how much attention they get.

I have seen snakes being hoarded. Having so many snakes to each small enclosure that they are forced to lie on top of one another, or many lizards of different species in a small enclosure together. THAT is extreme hoarding for reptiles. It can also be done if they have their own enclosures, if there are more snakes than there is food or veterinary care for them when they need it.

I did a paper and speech about this, and hoarding is defined by being unable to care for a large number of animals.

The social "large number" was five and up when I gave my speech two years ago.


Browsing on Tapatalk from my iPhone :)

Here it comes! Back from the dead!

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

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Some relavent.. and new!... information! http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?se...rts&id=7973545 states hoarding is soon to be added to the DSM!

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

Here it comes! Back from the dead!

Thread Necro in progress...

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WOW! I read through this entire thread and did'nt even notice the dates! I usually pick up on that! :rofl:

True hording is, indeed, a mental disorder. But even 'lesser hording' can exist with people who have too many animals and not enough space or money to keep them healthy and happy. There is a huge difference between a person in a small house keeping 2 cats, 2 dogs, a rack of 10 snakes, a colony of rats, and a guinea pig that has proper space and food for each of them, cleans up regularly and interacts with each to their specifications, and a person in the same size house keeping 6 guinea pigs, 3 racks of 10 snakes each, and a large rat colony who has minimal, improper food (because it's cheapest), 3 or more animals in each tiny enclosure/tub, hardly ever cleans up for the animals or them, and ignores the animals completely except to occasionally throw some bad food at them.

The second person has animals that have less space needs than the first person's animals, but the level of care is horrid in comparison. That is where the line is for hording and having a large collection, in my humble opinion. :)

And the assessment on care levels for mammals vs reptiles is very accurate. :) Taking proper care of 2 cats or dogs takes lots more time, space, food, and overall attention then taking proper care of 10 snakes. Currently, I have 2 snakes, 1 BTS and a dwarf rabbit. My bunny alone takes more of my time, money, and attention than all 3 of the reptiles together. :) And I live in a relatively small 1 bedroom apartment with my beloved. I know I could personally handle more critters, but I don't get any now due to lack of good space and money. Once I get a job again, and build the skink and snakes better caging...that may change. ;)

Just my :2cent:

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Originally Posted by tfpets

wow! I read through this entire thread and did'nt even notice the dates! I usually pick up on that! :rofl:

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x2~!!!

Wow, old thread, but a good one!

I am very new to keeping a reptile (all of two weeks!) and did a LOT of research and careful thinking before getting one. Years ago I worked in animal welfare, so I have some very real concerns about keeping an exotic as a pet. Honestly, if it weren't for my son's allergies preventing us from having a dog or cat, I wouldn't have brought home our baby ball.

For me, part of the difference is that cats and dogs are domesticated animals that require the same environment as we humans do. An indifferent owner can make an impulse purchase of a puppy or a kitten and pick up a bag of food or some litter at the grocery store, and with basic socialization and veterinary care, the animal may thrive without much effort on the owner's part.

Exotics require specialized equipment and knowledge to keep them healthy, but don't have the same needs for socialization. While these beautiful snakes can certainly be tame, they are not companion animals. At the risk of offending some of the forum members who take the time to share their expertise (and have helped me immensely in caring for our baby), I would describe the difference as being that of a hobbyist versus a pet owner. Apologies in advance for any toes I just stepped on!

So someone giving excellent care to a rack of 30 snakes is far different than someone living in filth with 30 half feral cats. I would say that there is a far greater problem with poor husbandry of individual snakes that are being frozen and starved in fish tanks by uneducated or uncaring owners, than that of actual reptile hoarding.