Improving morphs, selecting females

Hi,

Ive been talking to my family, and researching all i can, and in the next year or two, id like to give breeding a try. Which gives me awhile to get my stuff together, order the thermostats, build the hatchling rack, get a incubator set up, and the worst part: saving up the money to buy this, and extra to be safe in case of any problems (ex. Vet visits).

My question now is if a normal female can effect a morph.

For example i love my pastels pattern, and his color, but i do understand that all pastels change color over time, wether for the better or worse. Hes getting less lemon, and more mustard, but not brown so im happy.

So my question now. For females, would it be possible for me to find a high gold, tan or high yellow with large bands, and a clean solid color to clean up the pastel babies. Does a non-morph effect a morph in those areas?

So, is it possible, and to what degree does it help. I figure if i do breed, i want the best possible, and im not going to throw it with a dark spotty dirty looking normal. SO if it effects it, i will search for a nice female and be responsable not to throw out less then ideal pastels just because its easy.

Ben

What your asking about is called SELECTIVE breeding, it's been around since man first domesticated the chicken and cow. Selective breeding has been used to enhance the colors of snakes for years one of the biggest advocates that comes to mind is Jeff Ronne but there are several others that do it also. If you breed a Lesser or a Mojave to an outstanding normal then you will get better looking babies. Take those babies breed them through the outstanding mom and you get better babies keep doing this over generations and you will create some really awesome babies... With recessive genetics like albino or lavender albino the darker the babies the more high contrast the albinism is...

Alright, so the female does effect a genetic morph, I guess my train of thought was the fact that a morphs trait/gene whipes out the normal gene if present in areas of color ext. Like it was either a normal like the mom, or a pastel like the dad, and they didnt effect eachother because of the genetic trait. So they can be a combination of both parents and not just the genetic trait (ei. Pastel)?

I do understand selective breeding, but i always thought that was inbreeding.. Makes more sense now, thanks for clearing that up. I guess i just want to see if i can take the traits i love about my pastel (high flames, cool patern, and high contrast/not high blushing), and try to make these traits Pop...

So i guess ill just be scanning the shows, sites and classifieds all over for awhile and hopefully get something i love in the next year so i have time to grow it up, and quarenteen ext.

Thank you for the info, and clearing up my confusion. I assumed it happened some way, but was not sure about the genetic component.
Ben

High Gold to Spider can equal brighter spiders, or pastels or any genetic morph.

When it comes to getting better pastels just use a Yellow Belly to get a more extreme blushing and colorful animal. Pastel YB's are really cool and they clean up each other...

alot of people say that breeding a pastel to a normal gives you darker pastels, thats not true, i am not saying it will or will not happen because some people stick to their own stuff but i have a buddy that did alot of pastel breeding last year and none of it is true. Some babies that hatched from a pastelXnormal are brighter than pastelXpastel babies

I bred this guy:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...ton/Winny2.jpg

to these girls:
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...andoraJan5.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...ierraJune5.jpg

The first girl, I'm hoping for more bright lemon pastels, and with the second girl, I'm hoping for more reduced patterns.

The clutch from the first girl should be hatching the first week of July and the clutch from the second girl is due to be laid this week.

If this girl is up to weight, I'll be breeding him to her next season:
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...ckenzieJan.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...nzieBlush5.jpg

Thanks everyone,

So defintially its common place and works. Thats great to hear. Hopefully in the next few years ill have some killer pastel babies.

Robin, Amazing Lemon, and really nice females. Your examples were exactly what i meant. Good luck with the eggs, and i hope you get exactly what you want.

Now my hope is to find a tan/light colored female with reduced pattern, But i do have along time before i will even start to get stuff ready to breed, so im sure something will pop up between online and shows, and maybe even local.

Thanks for the YB suggestion, I would love to, but my biggest concern breeding is selling them, I figure I have a few reptile shops in my area i could sell normals too, but not a single person knows what a morph is, or any other morph for that matter, So pastel is the highest end i will go until i get the hang of breeding and feel comforable shipping. Though id love to get a few other things like a bumblebee ext. That wont be for awhile.

Thanks a ton everyone for answering my beginer questions.
Ben

Nice normals Robin!!!

Brock

I bred this pastel

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/4...ture029ay0.jpg

to this high gold female

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/6...ture077fz4.jpg

and got some nice babies ;)
female
http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/3...ture054yx1.jpg
female
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/7...ture058oy2.jpg
and this guy resembles the mom perfectly
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8...ture062qe8.jpg
same belly too
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/9...ture064qe3.jpg


Shawn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

Nice normals Robin!!!

Brock

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Thank you Brock! :)

Your WELCOME Robin!

Brock

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JKBReptiles

What your asking about is called SELECTIVE breeding, it's been around since man first domesticated the chicken and cow. Selective breeding has been used to enhance the colors of snakes for years one of the biggest advocates that comes to mind is Jeff Ronne but there are several others that do it also. If you breed a Lesser or a Mojave to an outstanding normal then you will get better looking babies. Take those babies breed them through the outstanding mom and you get better babies keep doing this over generations and you will create some really awesome babies... With recessive genetics like albino or lavender albino the darker the babies the more high contrast the albinism is...

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crazydude

Alright, so the female does effect a genetic morph, I guess my train of thought was the fact that a morphs trait/gene whipes out the normal gene if present in areas of color ext. Like it was either a normal like the mom, or a pastel like the dad, and they didnt effect eachother because of the genetic trait. So they can be a combination of both parents and not just the genetic trait (ei. Pastel)?

I do understand selective breeding, but i always thought that was inbreeding..

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JKB is correct that this is called selective breeding. However, you are correct that the example given is an example of inbreeding. The truth is MOST selective breeding involves at least some inbreeding, simply because it is easy that way. Most people do not have the money or space to keep the number of animals that would be required to do selective breeding without at least some inbreeding. Also, depending on what traits you are looking for, it might be hard to impossible to find enough stock that shows that trait without inbreeding.

If you have any doubts about how effective selective breeding can be, look at different breeds of dogs. Those all originated through selective breeding. Of course, getting results like that takes LOTS of generations.

If you want an example that is a little closer to what you might be able to achieve with BPs in your lifetime, take a look at cornsnakes. Look at okeetees, which are a wild type, but the ones in this particular area tended to have brighter colors. Then look at Abbott's okeetees. Lee Abbott selectively bred for the richest colors and widest black lines that he could find.

Also, if you wonder whether anyone will notice or care about all the hard work you put in to your selective breeding program, well, Abbott's okeetees sell for about $75, while regular okeetees sell for about $25. So if you do a good job of it, yeah, people will notice and be impressed.

BTW, your original supposition that the pastel gene might wipe out all the effects of the normal parent is incorrect since a pastel is co-dom, which means what you see when you see a pastel is sort of 1/2 super pastel and 1/2 normal. Heavy on the sort of, but you get the idea. However, even in a super pastel, the normal grandparents will have left their mark. There are large numbers of genes that contribute to the appearance of a snake. Many of them are much more subtle than the morphs, but they still have an effect. And all those more subtle genes are what you get to play around with when you engage in a selective breeding program.

Casey,

Thanks Soooo much, I totally get it now. The pastel gene thing (1/2 super, 1/2 normal) makes so much sense. Exactly the answer i was looking for.

As for selective breeding, I do understand that, and really when ever i hear it, i think of inbreeding, careful breeding for traits like what i want to do, does not seem to fit my idea of it, but thanks everyone for widening my definition of selective breeding. I have been around beardies for awhile, and basically any selective breeding there is inbreeding but thats a whole nother problem.

I do remember seeing abbott okeetees, and liked when when i thought okatees were not as special, but did not even make that connection, Again thanks, it does show alot.

Shawn, Nice pastels, and a very nice looking normal. thanks for the example

The more i see of normal females like the ones shown, the more normals interest me. I love the variation, and really the wild type is beautiful.

Again, thanks everyone for clearing this up, its really got me excited to get this going, ive been patrolling my list of about 20 breeders, KS, and all that stuff daily and started to plan out what to buy, and already have blueprints to the baby rack ext. And i still wont breed for at least a year. :rolleye2::snake:

Alright, Im obsessed, :salute::banana:

Ben

We have been selective breeding sence we invented peanut butter and jelly to make the peanut butter and jeely sandwitch witch is a triple het if breed to cheetos it looks cheesy put the peanut butter and jelly is still there.

Thats how my dad explained it to me and it makes about as much sence as the genetic tables I see everywhere. Line breeding is just selective breeding within the blood line to figure out what else is there it will never tell you if anything will show up in the future. Most morphs wont be found until we breed for future generations in blood lines. Mixing this ugly "normal" to this ugly "normal" could get you this "Custom gold grill lesser stevens" for all anybody knows.