Hairless ASF's?

Not long after these were born I noticed they were more pink than all the other babies and seemed to have less hair. At first I thought they were sick, injured, or possibly over grooming, but now I'm thinking it's more of a genetic thing?

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k1...re111/asf2.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k1...re111/asf3.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k1...re111/asf6.jpg

Compared to brown/white and tan/white babies that I am used to seeing:

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k1...re111/asf4.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k1...re111/asf5.jpg

Anybody else seen these before? :confused:

They will fill in..

Some are ever born with hair.. Its all good

I had a litter from my blonde ASFs that look like that. I wouldn't worry about it. Like it was said, it'll fill in eventually.

The guy I got my ASF from said his groups started throwing a bunch of hairless, so he tossed them all and started from scratch.

All I know is I know want some of thoughs!! Very nice D!

I think it is a common genetic defect. I have one trio that produces the same. They look like all the rest in the beginning... then they start to look sickly..,.. don't grow as fast as the rest.... loose hair... and constantly sleep and scratch. To me it appears to be a skin disorder... and it happens in about 30% of their offspring.

It may be a result of OVER imbreeding. The reason I am guessing this is that my trio that produces this was my first trio... completely and totaly imbred without any new blood for years before I got them. Alll of my other trios are of fresh blood... and don't produce this problem.

Judging by their low weight, lethargic behavior, and overall appearence, I would say you need to feed them off, and don't let them breed. It is not a good thing.

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Originally Posted by stangs13

All I know is I know want some of thoughs!! Very nice D!

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No you don't! Trust me, they are SICKLY looking.

Mike

ok I want normal asfs!

UGH! :oops:

Side note.... while I have had non ablinos with thinner then usual hair, I have only seen this sickly appearance in albinos... Guess it is some kind of albino releated defect....

If you look really close in person, the reason they look SO "red" is that the skin is clearly irritated. It is like they have a serious rash from head to toe. If you look close enough it will turn your stomach....

Yea, from what I've heard it is not a desireable trait and shouldn't be bred for.

I have some of those too!

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Originally Posted by mcavana

Judging by their low weight, lethargic behavior, and overall appearence, I would say you need to feed them off, and don't let them breed. It is not a good thing.

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I'll have to keep a closer eye ou on their behavior and try to see if they're unhealthy in any way. I understand not using them for breeding if something is wrong with them, but if you're telling me to feed them off anyway, then why would it matter if I chose to breed more like them, if they are all going to be used for food?

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Originally Posted by stangs13

ok I want normal asfs!

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Let me know whenever you're ready and I'll save some back for ya. ;)

I'm not sure if I think they are cute or not. It's always better to not have cute snake food. :)

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Originally Posted by Rapture

I understand not using them for breeding if something is wrong with them, but if you're telling me to feed them off anyway, then why would it matter if I chose to breed more like them, if they are all going to be used for food?

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That confused me a bit... by breed more of them, are you referring to using the same breeding pairs that produce them? Or grow them up to line breed?

Either way it seems a waste of resources to raise sickly and unhealthy animals, especailly as food. I would feed off the ones producing those offspring as well as the offspring.

ASFs take long enough to develop, why waste time and resources on unfit offspring?

bruce

I understand not feeding an unhealthy rodent to your snake, but my point to Mike was, if he recommended that I feed them off, then why recommend not to breed them, if I am breeding solely for feeding purposes anyway? If they are safe to feed, wouldn't their offspring be as well? If they are that bad I think it would make more sense not to breed or feed them off.

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Originally Posted by Rapture

I'll have to keep a closer eye ou on their behavior and try to see if they're unhealthy in any way. I understand not using them for breeding if something is wrong with them, but if you're telling me to feed them off anyway, then why would it matter if I chose to breed more like them, if they are all going to be used for food?

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Maybe it is just my way of thinking...

There are 3 reasons why I breed my own rodents.

1.) to save money
2.) because it is a lot of fun
3.) because I have complete control, and know that I am feeding off rats bred to the highest standards. My snakes eat like kings!

So I don't understand why you would want to continue to reproduce an unhealthy trait? Simple observation will show you that ASF's suffering from this condition are CONSTANTLY grooming / itching / scratching. (Even you said you first thought it was from "over grooming" ) there skin is clearly red, irritated, and even a little swolen looking. Please tell me why it would make sense to you to make future generations suffer through the same conditions?!

Why would I tell you to feed them off? why not? a skin disorder isn't going to hurt your snake. What does this have to do with breeding healthy lines going forward?

Guess I am just confused?

They look like they have a mite problem. Could be demodex or sarcoptic mange. Do they get scabs?

Frontline will treat sarcoptic mites(contagious) but demodex(not contagious) is hard to treat and requires either dipping with Paramite or treating with Interceptor(dog heartworm medication).

See if you can take one to the vet and have it skin scraped a few times. If they have weak immune systems from over-breeding, then they likely have demodex. It's not contagious but it's a PITA to get rid of and they sometimes have recurrences.

I agree with not breeding unhealthy animals, but at the same time, which is the point I was trying to make, if you're telling me to feed them off then it seems like they would make perfectly good feeders, which is all I am breeding for.

I'm not saying I'm going to breed them either... just making a point.

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Originally Posted by mcavana

Maybe it is just my way of thinking...

There are 3 reasons why I breed my own rodents.

1.) to save money
2.) because it is a lot of fun
3.) because I have complete control, and know that I am feeding off rats bred to the highest standards. My snakes eat like kings!

So I don't understand why you would want to continue to reproduce an unhealthy trait? Simple observation will show you that ASF's suffering from this condition are CONSTANTLY grooming / itching / scratching. (Even you said you first thought it was from "over grooming" ) there skin is clearly red, irritated, and even a little swolen looking. Please tell me why it would make sense to you to make future generations suffer through the same conditions?!

Why would I tell you to feed them off? why not? a skin disorder isn't going to hurt your snake. What does this have to do with breeding healthy lines going forward?

Guess I am just confused?

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Hey Becky, at my workplace we treat demodex with ivermectin.

Can't say I've heard that ivermectin gets rid of it. It may help the symptoms, but it won't kill the mites.

I'd still get a skin scraping and see what is causing it. May be fungal, may be bacterial, or parasitic.. Ya never know.

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Can't say I've heard that ivermectin gets rid of it. It may help the symptoms, but it won't kill the mites.

I'd still get a skin scraping and see what is causing it. May be fungal, may be bacterial, or parasitic.. Ya never know.

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What makes you think it is not genetic? I don't think it is mites, fungal, bacterial, or parasitic at all. The reason I say this is that it does not appear to be contageous! the ones that had it, had it, and the ones that didn't, didn't.... even though they were housed together.

Also, to my knowledge this condition only occurs in albino's. I am no veterinarian. I am only basing my theories on my observations and common sense. If it were mites, fungal, bacterial, or parasitic, isn't it to safe to say that at least one of the "normal" ASF's housed together with the "reds" would likely start to show symptoms?

I produced 4 groups of babies that contained reds from the same parents before I fed off all the red related ASF's. those babies once weined were put in with normal babies from completely different parents. I never had any of the normal babies show any simptoms of the reds.

Has anyone ever experienced this condition with a non albino? If so, can you post a pic of it?

Maybe it is allergies?

mike

Demodectic mange isn't contagious and only shows up in animals with weak immune systems(ie puppies and young animals). So no, the adults won't get it because they are immune to the mites.

The albinos likely just have poor immune systems and are the only ones with the problem.

Demodex is also genetic. It follows lines of weak immune systems. Breed an animal that had it as a baby, and you'll end up with most of the litter infected.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Demodectic mange isn't contagious and only shows up in animals with weak immune systems(ie puppies and young animals). So no, the adults won't get it because they are immune to the mites.

The albinos likely just have poor immune systems and are the only ones with the problem.

Demodex is also genetic. It follows lines of weak immune systems. Breed an animal that had it as a baby, and you'll end up with most of the litter infected.

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Thank you for that explanation! :gj:

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Can't say I've heard that ivermectin gets rid of it. It may help the symptoms, but it won't kill the mites.

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Ivermectin kills demodectic mange when given the correct dosage. Not sure what I'm going to do with these guys yet.

Really? Sorry, I just have to ask since I have two rats from bad lines that have demodex. If I can just use injectable ivermectin, that will work great.

Does your vet have a dosage? My vet has been out and I haven't been able to ask her about anything.

If ivermectin works, why not find a TSC that sells the injectable and just put it on your ASF's skin? Injectable ivermectin works well when put behind the ears and orally is fine too.

We sell the injectible Ivomec and prescribe it for a lot of dogs that the dip did not work on, or the owners did not want to dip. Just don't use it on Collie breeds. The dosage for dogs is like a weaning dosage, and it is an oral SID dose for something like a month straight, then again if skin scrapes are still positive. The exotics doctor at my vet is a new graduate so I'm not sure how much help she will be exactly, but I can definitely look in the exotics formulary to see if anything is mentioned, and I may take them up to my regular exotics vet for the heck of it, so see if anything horrible is really going on with these guys.

http://memphisrats.com/Images/hairless.JPG
The hairless is not specific to only amber ASFs. I have 12 breeding sets, and 1 of the 12 will occassionally produce a mix of almost hairless, thin fur, or normals. I plan to feed the breeding set off and starting over, but I'm setting aside this male and a couple females like this one to observe their offspring.

~Nate

I've tried breeding for it, with no luck. It seems to just be a flaw that pops up from time to time, though I am un-sure if it is genetic, or environmental.