Breeding WC females?

I was just wondering... I know that it is common knowledge that WC females do not breed... but there are lots of morphs that came from WC females and males... so obviously someone is making it work.

I was wondering if the WC females do not breed rationale, is based on gravid imported WC females? Or does it apply to virgin sub adults as well. I.e. If a female is imported prior to breeding, will it be easier/harder/the same to get her to breed when she is of age and up to weight?

Also, how do people get gravid WC femaes to breed again?

More interested in the first question, but the second one is of interest as well.

Thanks in advance,
Bruce

Bruce, all I can comment on is our personal experience with our two WC adult females.

One we know was imported gravid, one we suspect likely was.

Saoirse, the unknown one, took a long, long time to rehab and after more than 2 years we are just finally turning the corner we wanted to see with her weightwise. She fasts from fall to spring each year which doesn't help and there is just nothing we've ever found that prevents this with her. She'll go this fall for breeding and we'll just have to see how she does.

Now Danu's another situation all together. We know she laid eggs in captivity after being brought in gravid, we know she never ate for the person who bought her, nor for the person he traded her to. She came to us very underweight and very stressed. It took awhile to get her de-stressed under very strictly managed conditions but allowing her that time did get her eating. Granted she will only take ASF's (and the VERY rare small rat) but she's eating up a storm and gaining weight like there's no tomorrow. She's at breeding weight now actually but with her build could use even more weight on her to make me comfortable.

I'm certainly no expert but I think in the end it's a case by case thing. With both Saoirse and Danu though we've learned that you just cannot hurry things. Any attempt to do so just always ended up with them retreating back into an almost dormant stage where they just ignored life. When we took it slow, let the snake's reactions guide us and paid very close attention to details, both of them came around.

You'd never believe that terrified Saoirse and snappy, defensive Danu are both totally at ease now with handling and you'd never know either of them grew to maturity in the wild. :)

I have bred 3 WC imported females, not sure who says they don't?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sputnik

I have bred 3 WC imported females, not sure who says they don't?

---

MOST female wild-caught adult ball pythons NEVER breed in captivity.

http://www.vpi.com/publications/the_...hon_care_sheet

third paragraph from the end...

Bruce

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankykeno

You'd never believe that terrified Saoirse and snappy, defensive Danu are both totally at ease now with handling and you'd never know either of them grew to maturity in the wild. :)

---

Thanks for the response Jo.

As I mentioned to you earlier, I have the girls set up in their tubs. Trying to keep everything to a min with them.

Their hides are overflowing with aspen (amazing how much they can pack down isn't it?).

I have a strict hands off rule with them. I pop the hide to make sure we are good about every 4 days.

The reason I was curious about this thread... is I was at a reptile store near my work tonight, and the had a tank FULL of bps. I lost count at 14 heads. :(

They were stacked about four inches deep in the enclosure... all looked like sub-adults. Hey, but they were on SALE (that will always enrage me). I can only assume WCs.

It just got me to thinking...

As always, thanks for the words.

Bruce

Addendum:

Only a few people knew this, but I do have 2 WC females imported as gravids (they laid and then came into my collection).

Both these females are unresponsive and not engaged at this point. My priority is not to get them breeding but to have them engage at some point, and I realize that this will be a long commitment/process.

I guess seeing these sub-adults, and figuring that they may be passed off as CH, CB, just got me thinking about the timelines regarding WCs. And whether there is difference as to eventual breeding/feeding/engagement depending on when they were pulled from the wild.

Thanks for reading,
Bruce

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loft Lizard

MOST female wild-caught adult ball pythons NEVER breed in captivity.

http://www.vpi.com/publications/the_...hon_care_sheet

third paragraph from the end...

Bruce

---

I had 3 out of 4 breed and produce..... I guess my odds were better then most. :)

I have worked with a lot of expensive W.C. females over the years (new blood morphs and unproven we brought in) I would say generally they are very hard to get breeding. Females under 800 grams that come in from Africa seem to breed fine (bush babies they are called they range from 200-800 grams)

The best success i have had with adults is, females that come in gravid and then lay eggs. They seem to feed much better and bounce back quickly. African rats are great if you have a finicky one. The trick is getting the to breed. Usually it takes a few years to get them going.

A friend of mine got a female Volta (huge ball python from a certain area) from Africa 3 yrs ago. She laid 17 eggs when she came in. She started feeding quickly and my friend tried to breed her the following season without success. I got her later that year and tried her the following season with the same results. This year i paid close attention to her, one night she was wrapped around her water bowl during the cooling and i put a male in immediately. they breed a few times over a few months and she just had her pre lay shed on 5/29 .

So they can breed you just have to be patient. I would highly recommend NOT getting them for breeders unless they are something special, since they usually take just as long (or longer) to breed, as a hatchling you can raise up.

Hope this helps
Jon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sputnik

I had 3 out of 4 breed and produce..... I guess my odds were better then most. :)

---

I guess I have good odds too. I have 12 WC imports (all came in gravid and laid eggs)...8 took this year (the other 4 are still too small)....of the 8 - 6 have laid and I expect the other 2 will in the next month or so.

My personal opinion is it all has to do with how you set them up. My WC girls only eat live in the complete dark, live on moist cypress (higher humidity) and aren't messed with. They have been setup this way since getting here and all ate immediately after laying and for the most part haven't stopped...they never fast either.

Just can't mess with them.:cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NextWorldExotics

So they can breed you just have to be patient. I would highly recommend NOT getting them for breeders unless they are something special, since they usually take just as long (or longer) to breed, as a hatchling you can raise up.

Hope this helps
Jon

---

I wouldn't recommend them either....

I am breeding three W.C . Y. Bellies this season. One is a 2000 gram female who I purchased after she laid last spring. I fasted her for 3 months after I got her. I offered her rats and she is now one of my best feeders. She has been breeding with my new morph(got to get that combo) and 2 different Y.B's. She hasn't taken yet but looks to be developing.

The other two were brought into my collection as 900-1000-gramers last spring. They took a while to get feeding. When the hit the 1250 gram mark, and their weight looked good, I moved them to my breeding room.

I have only been bred by the 2 male offspring of the new morph. Hatched September 24th 2007 they are around 600-700 grams and are flat out studs -- just like daddy!!!

I must say that I got these snakes because the were Y. B's (not normals) and to gain some experiance as a new breeder. I have a lot of captive hatched in my collection, but will be not likely to get any more W.C. -- unless they were EXCEPTIONAL and the price was right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankykeno

...we've learned that you just cannot hurry things. Any attempt to do so just always ended up with them retreating back into an almost dormant stage where they just ignored life.

---

I am keeping that my priority right now with my two girls. Just letting them chill, I may move them tonight. I talked to Jerome about the possibility of moving them into the cupboard next to the closet. Made out of the same material as the QT rack.

I just need to relocate my socks. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sputnik

I had 3 out of 4 breed and produce..... I guess my odds were better then most. :)

---

Those are good odds. But then again, I would assume that you are also doing something right. I think it is safe to say that this is not an odds game. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NextWorldExotics

Females under 800 grams that come in from Africa seem to breed fine (bush babies they are called they range from 200-800 grams)

The best success i have had with adults is, females that come in gravid and then lay eggs. They seem to feed much better and bounce back quickly. African rats are great if you have a finicky one. The trick is getting the to breed. Usually it takes a few years to get them going.

A friend of mine got a female Volta ... she just had her pre lay shed on 5/29 .

So they can breed you just have to be patient. I would highly recommend NOT getting them for breeders unless they are something special, since they usually take just as long (or longer) to breed, as a hatchling you can raise up.

Hope this helps
Jon

---

Yeah, that is great info to have. Thanks for taking the time to respond. It will be interesting to see if this snake (your 17 egg clutch female) has as large a clutch as her first one. That is a crazzzzzzy amount of eggs.

I do not think my two females are going to even close to bouncing back anytime soon. But I do welcome the challenge, and as a keeper I think the experience will be a good one. And regardless, these girls were going to be dumped (not trying to be pejorative) somewhere, so why not here?

The one female is a stunner. Burgundy and one of the highest blushes I have seen in a non-morph. But whether or not that is genetic... not counting on it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lord jackel

My WC girls only eat live in the complete dark, live on moist cypress (higher humidity) and aren't messed with. They have been setup this way since getting here and all ate immediately after laying and for the most part haven't stopped...they never fast either.

---

Again, excellent info. Thanks for that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

I must say that I got these snakes because the were Y. B's (not normals) and to gain some experiance as a new breeder. I have a lot of captive hatched in my collection, but will be not likely to get any more W.C. -- unless they were EXCEPTIONAL and the price was right.

---

I guess that is what was the pusher for me. Every new challenge I take on, I figure can only help me become a better keeper, and every new snake I take on (have rehabbed burned and neglected snakes) teaches me something that benefits my entire collection.

Thanks for the responses,
bruce

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loft Lizard

Those are good odds. But then again, I would assume that you are also doing something right. I think it is safe to say that this is not an odds game. :)

---

The right part is the getting them to eat on a regular basis and settled, which is the first battle. And as John pointed out, better off raising babies then getting adult WC stuff IMO.

I was lucky to of gotten ones that did settle down and adjust fairly quick.... which explains the 3 out of 4 odds. I think the odds overall (Based on a guess) are not that great.

A trick that has worked for me over the years is...

Put the females in a 32 qt tub (preferably the blue ones) use cypress mulch for bedding. Put a large plastic flower pot bottom (the things used to collect water from flower pots) in for a hide box. It should take up most of the tub. Put a smaller water bowl in. There should be almost no room for them to more around outside the hide. They will cram into different spots in the tub though. Leave tub in a dark area, with very low traffic. Do not check on them for 3 weeks to a month. After 3-4 weeks drop a large mouse or sm rat in there with a few pieces of dog food (so the rat dosent eat the snake) in the middle of the night, leave the rat in till the morning, if its still in there in the morning take it out and wait another 2 weeks (african rats do work the best, then mice, then rats). Do not use light or a flashlight in the cage. They almost always take food this way. Continue feeding like this for 4-5 weeks (mouse in at night). Then you can move them into a rack and they usually take off just fine.

Hope this helps
Jon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NextWorldExotics

I would highly recommend NOT getting them for breeders unless they are something special, since they usually take just as long (or longer) to breed, as a hatchling you can raise up.

Hope this helps
Jon

---

I know the burgandy albino ball python came in as a WC adult in 2000 and this was the first year she successfully bred.

Old thread... I know... but I just wanted to give a quick update.

My one girl took her first ASF tonight.

I dropped a juvi into each enclosure, and came back later expecting to take each out.

The first girl... pretty easy. Rat was sitting in the entrance to her hide lounging and taking his time looking around...

Second girl... open the enclosure... removed enclosure... lifted hide... lifted snake... took me more than a few minutes to realize that the rat was actually gone.

That was after I moved the snake and checked for holes in the enclosure. I was so far from expecting her to have eaten that it did not even cross my mind that she may have actually consumed the rat.

But yeah... here is a pic of her. I am actually quite calm. I guess I had set a time limit of six months and figured anything sooner than that would be gravy.

Hopefully she keeps eating for me. :)

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...um/Therese.jpg

And here is a pic of the girl that has NOT eaten yet

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p.../Katherine.jpg

Thanks for all the help. One of the reasons I love the BP community.

Bruce

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loft Lizard

I am actually quite calm.

---

*MEH!* Who am I trying to kid...?

:banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:

Ok... I should have waited to post this... final tally.

BP: 3 ASF: 0

I put the second one in... and keep in mind my comp is not far from the QT rack... no noises... so I go back to check... cannot see any rat... take out enclosure again.... lift snake up (gotta stop doing that)... and the rat is gone!

Put a third rat in, leave the flap up (they have black cloth over their rack)... watch rat poking around... and then see the stealthest moving BP I have ever seen... and then the rat just sort of *poof* and vanishes.

I listen... no sound. Shine my trusting penlite in... sure enough nailed and almost consumed in a VERY short period of time.

Watching her hunt was quite amazing...

And for the record... these were the changes I made to their enclosure after this thread.

I moved them into my bedroom in the quietest corner. Have their enclosures filled about 2/3rd full of aspen, including as much as I could fit into the hides, bumped the humidity way up. Put a black cloth over the rack and other than changing the water once a week, I have not messed with them. I drop a rat in every 2 weeks and up till today end up removing it within the hour.... I have been prescenting for an hour prior to feeding.

It has just started to dawn on me that she is eating for me. Had to see her chase down that rat for it be salient. :)

Bruce

Congratulations, Bruce - I can't imagine what a wonderful feeling that is!

:banana::banana::banana:

Congrats Bruce, now quit jumping up and down like that your downstairs neighbors are complaining! :8: ;)

How wonderful, Bruce! Giving her the extreme quiet time to let her de-stress seems to be working - congrats. :banana:

Thanks Robin, Deb, and Jo. :)

I keep thinking I am calm, but find myself telling everyone at work... "I got my WC to eat!"

They stare blankly and mutter a "well if that is what you want then it is a good thing?"

They long ago learned to not ask for explanations when it comes to snakes and rats.

Still a bit stunned, and hope I that I can keep her going. I really did not expect to get a meal in either of them till the winter at the earliest... later if I did not catch them prior to winter fasting.

So yeah. :D

B

Not dregging up old posts... OK, maybe I am?

Just feeling good. I have my one girl on her third meal AND she has switched to 3 week old regular rats as of today (if she keeps going I'll be escatic, as those little boogs, AKA ASFs, take too looooooong to get the right size).

The second WC is still not eating, but she is attentive and is tracking her rats. Second feed that she has done more than just sit in her hide in a coil. So either way I consider that a success so far.

I actually had to clean snake feces out of the enclosure. Jerome could not understand why I was so happy to be wiping snake poop up. :rofl:

Bruce