Woma Ball - WOW SICKNESS!

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=7&de=599983

That is pretty cool lookin :O

wow, even though its a hybred its quite impressive.

Technically, they call them Walls, because there is a morph of ball pythons called the woma ball. ;)

Don't care much for Hybrids

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Originally Posted by ShawnT

Don't care much for Hybrids

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Me either Shawn...
BT

dont like it one bit!

not my kinda thing

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Originally Posted by ShawnT

Don't care much for Hybrids

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Me either. It does have nice coloring but I don't like how they got it.

hmm......don't know what to think about it. Specially since they're selling it for $3500.

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Originally Posted by snakelady

Me either. It does have nice coloring but I don't like how they got it.

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I'm curious, what do you mean by that? I'm not trying to be confrontational or condescending or anything. Is it somehow unethical to produce a hybrid between the two python types? I think it's quite a cool-looking snake, myself.

it muddies the blood lines and what if it gets to the point where we have mutt snakes

It's more about ethics for me. Two snakes from completely different continents? I'm not content with such a wide rift and crossing it. Same thing with the blood ball, it's nice looking, but why even cross the two species in the first place?

Head looks ridiculously too small for it's body. The pattern is nice, but Hybrids suck.

The thing I don't like is that its creator made the decision for all future herpers that they can no longer be sure of having a pure cb ball python.

I have a neat looking petstore girl and I joke that she is half Burmese. If I had found her 10 years from now rather then 7 years ago I might seriously have to worry that she might be a descendent of a woma or Burmese cross rather than an actual ball python mutation.

I think it’s just a matter of time before in a few generation the offspring of these hybrids are lost into the pet trade.

Why does the concept of hybrids violate any ethics? What moral principle does it break?

Now I'm not saying that you have to like the animal or not, but I don't quite understand the deep hatred that I see for hybrids. (unless you're a car) I probably would not breed one, but I wouldn't have any problem with owning one in my collection. I do not have a problem with their existance either.

Also I don't think using the word sickness in a thread about snakes, is probably the best idea... but that may just be my old age kicking in. ;)

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Originally Posted by tigerlily

Why does the concept of hybrids violate any ethics? What moral principle does it break?

Now I'm not saying that you have to like the animal or not, but I don't quite understand the deep hatred that I see for hybrids. (unless you're a car) I probably would not breed one, but I wouldn't have any problem with owning one in my collection. I do not have a problem with their existance either.

Also I don't think using the word sickness in a thread about snakes, is probably the best idea... but that may just be my old age kicking in. ;)

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Here's my take on it...I'll use Jungle Carpets and locality Boas for examples...Jungle Carpets - It is impossible now a days to claim you have a 100% JCP...Why? Because of all the mixing and matching (creating hybrids) that was done back in the day with Diamonds...People crossed JCP's with Diamonds in hopes of making the Diamond a stronger animal...A lot of pure Diamonds die (for no apparent reason) after a few years...Have you ever looked for a pure Diamond? Hard to find but it's not hard to find 88%'ers, 66%'ers, ect...If you do find one - Buyers want proof - Documentation...Look at all the mixing with Coastals, IJ's, and every other Carpet out there - Just look at the Jaguar Carpets...The Jag was suppose to be a pure Coastal morph - Look at them now - Bredli Jags, JCP Jags, Irian Jaya Jags, Diamond Jags...People can't trace lineage of mutts...Same with locality Boas...People mix and match dwarfs with Columbians and True Red Tails and create mutts...I don't want a mutt - I want a 100% pure locality Boa...Problem is - Lots of people won't represent their animals truthfully and you end paying damn good money for something that's not what you paid for...I don't want a Columbian/Hog/Nic cross - I want a pure Hog or a pure Nic...The majority of the crossing in the Boas is centered around the morphs but it's getting harding and harder to find nice - pure blooded locality Boa that you can honestly say are 100% pure...That's were my dislike of Hybrids comes from...
BT

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Originally Posted by tigerlily

Why does the concept of hybrids violate any ethics? What moral principle does it break?

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I already explained myself. Why cross species from two different continents? They aren't even remotely related besides being Pythons or boas.... It just dont seem right to me.

Then as BT explained so well, it does muddy the bloodlines.

I dont hate them, just dont need them.

With ball pythons where we don't really have locality strains I'm looking at it from a new morph perspective. In a few years when you find a neat new looking cb ball python you will not know if it's an actual ball python where you have a chance that it's a new single gene mutation you can reliably reproduce or some complex mix of lots of genes from another species.

is it cool? yeah. is it $3500 cool? Not even remotely.

I am not a fan of hybrids myself but if I were and wanted to buy one how can you be sure that it would even reproduce and that it is not sterile. I guess if someone wanted something a little different in their collection that is one thing but like has been said if you are breeding them and charging high prices you are contributing to the "muddying" of that species whether intentional or not. You can't be sure that the person you sell it to is responsible or ethical. I still prefer pure even if they aren't as unique.

as a pet it would be cool but i really cant believe people go to the trouble to make hybrids only thing that should be a hybrid is a car

Now I can completely understand the dilemma with hybrids in the Carpets, if you're looking for a completely pure animal. I don't have an issue with mutts, but I would want the animals I purchase to be exactly what they were claimed to be.

Those are some good arguements, but I still don't see where ethics come into the picture at all though. Again, I'm not trying to argue for or against them just trying to understand the reasoning behind the anger I sometimes sense behind the posting.

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Originally Posted by tigerlily

Now I can completely understand the dilemma with hybrids in the Carpets, if you're looking for a completely pure animal. I don't have an issue with mutts, but I would want the animals I purchase to be exactly what they were claimed to be.

Those are some good arguements, but I still don't see where ethics come into the picture at all though. Again, I'm not trying to argue for or against them just trying to understand the reasoning behind the anger I sometimes sense behind the posting.

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I see your point, I really do. But BT and Connie said it pretty well.

Why cross two snakes from two different continents? There is no "reason" to make hybrids, especially when pures like BT said, are sooo hard to get!

As the years pass I see more and more people getting and creating these hybrids, with no knowledge of how its going to affect (or effect?) our beloved hobby.

I think everyone is in this forum for the same reason, WE ALL LOVE HERPS. So what if you loooooved Blood python, but 4 years from now, when you are actually ready to get one, there are none to be found, all your finding is Super balls?

Thats the way that I look at it. I see it as almost a malignant growth, that just slowing builds is girth, until it spills over into other regions, ie: YOUR buying market.

Wow I dont think I have ever typed that much on one responce ever! LOL

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

I think everyone is in this forum for the same reason, WE ALL LOVE HERPS. So what if you loooooved Blood python, but 4 years from now, when you are actually ready to get one, there are none to be found, all your finding is Super balls?

Thats the way that I look at it. I see it as almost a malignant growth, that just slowing builds is girth, until it spills over into other regions, ie: YOUR buying market.

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I honestly don't think pure species would ever be replaced completely by hybrids. There are way too many "purists" in the hobby that love the animals in their natural state, and with the variation of most true species (color and pattern mutation) most people don't see the point in hybridizing different species.

I do agree however, that with animals that can no longer be brought into captivity outside their country of origin (i.e. many Australian animals) should not be hybridized until the captive populations are to a level in which there are more than enough of the pure species available to private collections.

This debate has raged on, on many of the fish forums that I frequent. You're always going to find almost equal numbers of people that are for and against hybridizing, I think it's just in human nature to be curious about what (this) crossed with (this) would look like, act like, etc...

Like Christie said, as long as the hybrid animals are not falsely represented at pure species, I really don't see a problem with hybrids. To each their own!

Just my opinion.;)

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Originally Posted by jknudson

I honestly don't think pure species would ever be replaced completely by hybrids.

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No I know, I was over exaggerating to make my point.

Those are some good arguements, but I still don't see where ethics come into the picture at all though. Again, I'm not trying to argue for or against them just trying to understand the reasoning behind the anger I sometimes sense behind the posting.[/QUOTE from christie.

i also wonder where ethics comes in,according to dictionary.com :
ETHICS:"motivation based on ideas of right and wrong".

is it wrong for a afro american person to produce offspring with a asian person?

some have mentioned "i don't see any reason for it" my Q is do you have to see a reason for it? i probaly won't produce hybrids but i can peacefully co exist with them and those who produce them.just my .02 have fun!

can someone put the picture up again? it's gone! :O

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Originally Posted by Christina

can someone put the picture up again? it's gone! :O

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Sure thing!:gj:

http://www.exoticsbynature.com/daytona06/nerd2.jpg
http://www.exoticsbynature.com/daytona06/nerd3.jpg
http://www.exoticsbynature.com/daytona06/nerd22.jpg

There ya go!

i dunno- i think it looks pretty awesome!

i guess you can argue the same thing with dogs and cats. i'll bet most of our pets are mutts, so i can't really side with the ethics arguement, or the "just to keep it pure" argument. it's easy to find pure bred dogs and cats, so i can't imagine the that pure animals will die out.

It doesn't bother me for someone to say they don't like or support hybrids. That's fine, and it's their choice/opinion. It's something about using ethics to justify their dislike. That somehow the existence of a hybrid is morally wrong. Of course, I don't know why it bothers me in the first place :rolleyes:

I'm going to go find a nice fruity drink and go enjoy it by the pool. :wuv: :D

If people are that afraid that we will not be able to find a pure BP blood line in a few years, why doesn't someone just start a "normal project" and keep the line pure? If your fears come true someday your normals will be worth way more than any hybrid.

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Originally Posted by tigerlily

I'm going to go find a nice fruity drink and go enjoy it by the pool. :wuv: :D

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YOU HAVE A POOL?!?!?!?!?!?......lucky...:kickdirt:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

YOU HAVE A POOL?!?!?!?!?!?......lucky...:kickdirt:

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Yup I do. :wuv:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k1...oolpics002.jpg

Water temperture is 92. (Everyone else thinks it's a bit warm, but it's heavenly to me :D )

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Originally Posted by twh

i also wonder where ethics comes in,according to dictionary.com :
ETHICS:"motivation based on ideas of right and wrong".

is it wrong for a afro american person to produce offspring with a asian person?

some have mentioned "i don't see any reason for it" my Q is do you have to see a reason for it? i probaly won't produce hybrids but i can peacefully co exist with them and those who produce them.just my .02 have fun!

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Humans are all the same species... so how does that analogy work exactly?

I think a better analogy would be, 'is it wrong for a chimp and a human to produce offspring?' Something like less than 3% difference in our DNA, so is it ethical for humans to breed with Chimps?

This is a debate that will never end, but I've made my point of view clear. I don't think it's ethical to cross species that would never meet and breed in the wild.

As to the boas and jags and such, they are closely related, but that doesn't mean I feel the same way about that either. I find some of the jags and diamond crosses to be gorgeous and desirable to have.

I don't think the burmese ball is desirable, nor the superball, nor the womaball. I think they are interesting, but I don't need them either.

I really don't hate it if someone else likes them or has them. I just don't like em. I didn't think I'd have to explain why so much.

Okay okay, you guys win. Hybrids rule... *sigh

http://www.freakingnews.com/Hybrid-A...ures---563.asp

Connie, I didn't mean to make you feel you HAD to answer my post. I was just curious, and though I'd ask. No big deal. Sometimes something sticks in my head, and I just have to spout off at the mouth. :rolleyes:

Now those pics are too cool. Can I have a tiger horse please?

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Originally Posted by tigerlily

Connie, I didn't mean to make you feel you HAD to answer my post. I was just curious, and though I'd ask. No big deal. Sometimes something sticks in my head, and I just have to spout off at the mouth. :rolleyes:

Now those pics are too cool. Can I have a tiger horse please?

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No biggie, I just like to respond! :D

I'm a fan of the tiger horse too! And the squid lizard.... :8:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

a better analogy would be, 'is it wrong for a chimp and a human to produce offspring?' Something like less than 3% difference in our DNA, so is it ethical for humans to breed with Chimps?

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Just an addendum:

We also share 47% of our DNA with Daffodils. No worries though. I personally have never met a daffdil that I like that much. I mean they're cute enough and all...

Bruce

I can't remember the which snake it is but for some reason I think it is one of the indigos (could be wrong). There were people selling non-pure indigos for the price as indigos. Thus charging the same price for a pure one that wasn't pure. There is often times they are bred just for money. For instance (I could have these switched) there was an albino ruthveni king snake but no albino thayeri king snakes. So they bred and albino ruthveni to the thayeri created hets and then bred them out so they had albino thayeri/ruthveni king. Then they continue the albino line by breeding that to thayeris and so on. In the end there is no true thayeri king it will have ruthveni blood in it yet this person down the road may claim he produced the first ever and cash in. There are instances where hybrids were created such as killer bees. How many true european bee hives are in the south now that haven't been taken over with african bee blood creating killer bees. Also if someone buys a king/corn mix and it gets away in the south now you could be polluting the wild population. Also breeding completely different species such blood and balls what is the object? money? to say you did it? I wouldn't really want to breed myself to a chimp or gorilla just to see what the baby would look like.

My argument isn't so much ethical as practical and based on my narrow goals. I'm not so much interested in pure normal ball pythons as predictably reproducible mutant ball pythons. If the hybrids are fertile (and I’ve heard at least some maybe most so far have been) there is a good chance that the decedents of the burm ball and the woma ball will include some weird looking animals even after several generations of breeding to pure balls. As the number of decedents grows geometrically some of these weird looking mostly ball pythons will be separated from any record of their source and be taken for a new ball python mutation. I might find one of these and spend years trying to reproduce it. Even if a small enough number of burmese or woma genes are responsible for the weird appearance to make it easily reproduced the best case scenario is that I'll be selling hybrids as a new ball python mutation. They might have health or reproductive issues due to being hybrids. Worst case the appearance will be hard to predict and reproduce based on shuffling of a large number of burmese or woma genes in the line. Years could be wasted that could have been spent on genuine ball python mutant projects.

Haha nothing like bringing up a "old" hot debate thread :)

I had the chance about 3 years ago to see this hybrid in person, and man was she beautiful. Bitey, but absolutely gorgeous!!

Hybrids can be damaging to the market, absolutely agreed.
I have a really hard time with labeling it unethical, however.

Before boats and planes and such - well, pocahontas and john smith would have never met lol. And I bet you enjoy the story "the Little Mermaid!" (haha okay, that was a far-fetched joke)

I just realized that I don't have a valid argument at all lol. I think the only reason why I care a little bit is because I dont want to see our beloved ball pythons get mudded.

But other mutts dont bother me in the slightest - I would own a mutt dog - I wonder if dog breeders feel the same way we do? I just .... dont care if my dog is 100% pure snitzerdoodle. But the breeders do - because of market.
And that liger gimmick is pretty cool :rolleyes:

Forgive me for this post - it's definitely almost 3am.

i want a vampire frog!!! freakin sweet