Rescuing reptiles or funding the problem?

I was browsing through the forums and came across this thread about purchasing a BP in order to rescue it. On the one hand the concern is that by purchasing the snake you are encouraging the pet store to treat more the same. That is too say, poorly. The other side of the coin is that if you have the ability (time, money, knowledge, etc) to rescue one you should do what you can do for it.

I just wanted to get everyone's thought on the matter. Is buying a snake to rescue it -

a) Going to accomplish anything for the good of captive reptiles in general?

b) More damaging than it is good?

c) The easy way out? In otherwords instead of throwing a wad of cash at them should we spend our time educating them instead?

Nice topic! :gj:

JonV

great topic but a hard one to put down what im thinking

I won't purchase an animal from a pet store if it is not taken care of properly because it does encourage them to just get more. I have no problems reporting a store that does not practice proper husbandry to the local animal control agency. I'll also keep on them until someone checks it out.

Education can help, too. If you're dealing with a small, locally owned store a lot can be accomplished. When you're dealing with big corporate stores the only thing that will work is not purchasing from them. Money talks in this instance.

Though it is hard to watch any animal suffer, one suffering for the well being of all is an acceptable loss in my book.

i say sometimes.. only because no one really knows what kind of extreme situation you could find yourself looking at in life, but on an every day basis i'd say definately not. i'd rather not encourage whoever is doing the bad pet keeping to continue it. they'd figure, hey if you'll buy one, won't you buy another? whoever is trying to do the unhealthy pet selling, i'd just tell them "if you took beter care of your animals, maybe i would purchase one."

can't you call animal control or something? i found a dead gecko in a tank one time at a pet store i frequented and it was there for 2 days... i didn't say anything to the guy who worked there because i thought he shoudl be checking them every day and making sure everything was kosher. i ended up making a phone call. needless to say they were checked out, and are doing things by the book now.

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Originally Posted by tideguyinva

great topic but a hard one to put down what im thinking

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i kinda felt the same way but i gave it a shot ;) hehe

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Originally Posted by dalvers63

I won't purchase an animal from a pet store if it is not taken care of properly because it does encourage them to just get more. I have no problems reporting a store that does not practice proper husbandry to the local animal control agency. I'll also keep on them until someone checks it out.

Education can help, too. If you're dealing with a small, locally owned store a lot can be accomplished. When you're dealing with big corporate stores the only thing that will work is not purchasing from them. Money talks in this instance.

Though it is hard to watch any animal suffer, one suffering for the well being of all is an acceptable loss in my book.

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X2

I think it really depends on the situation.

If it's a store that has lots of snakes then a rescue just isn't feasible.

I bought a rescue because it was a special case. It was the only BP is the whole store. They generally don't carry them. It was sold to them by someone who couldn't take care of it anymore.

They also didn't know what they really had and sold it much less than it would be on anyone's web site. It's a big beautiful pastel male. So I had multiple motivations to buy this animal. Being a rescue was just the big kicker.

This is a a really good topic, and one that I have pondered for a while.

This last winter I rescued a Mojave female ball. The (private, not store) owner did ask a rehoming fee. She had multiple issues. She was skinny and had something black in her mouth that ended up being splinters from being fed on coconut husk.

I probably ended up spending more on vet bills for her than I would have just buying a mojo.

I didn't like the idea of paying the rehoming fee either, but I really liked her and couldn't let her go back with him. He obviously didn't care and had her under a blisteringly hot heat lamp in a tank with no hides.

I do not regret the work I put into her though. She is doing great now! I supposed I paid for her, allowing this young man to abuse more animals, but in this case I really felt like I needed to do something.

That said, I wouldn't support a store, especially a chain store. It is regrettable, but I am not going to pay money into a bad system.
Maybe I have already done that with my Mojo???? I don't know...I just did what i felt was right.:worry:

I absolutely will not buy a rescue, from store or private owner.

Private owners are trying to recoup money, I won't honor that.

Store owners are trying to make money. I will not honor that either.

I'd rather report the pet store for neglect. I would rather the person learn a life lesson through the experience if they think they can just sell any animal they dont want anymore.

People make mistakes. Period.

If someone purchases a snake, then realizes it was a huge mistake because they don't have what it takes to take care of it... They think they are taking good care of it, because they listened to the Petco employee... But just don't know that they are doing everything wrong. Why condemn them? If they are only trying to get a few bucks back from a larger investment, why is that so bad? It's not.

Imagine geting gung ho into bicycling. you buy a $500 bike, then a few months later you just loose the will to ride. You try again, but it is just gone. You no longer have room for it, and you know you don't want it any more. It has a flat tire, is out of tune, and needs a little TLC. You certainly should have taken better care of it, and tried a little more riding before making the purchase. Because you made a poor decision, and because the bike is no longer in tip top shape, does that mean there is something wrong with you if you try to sell it for a couple hundred? NO.

More importantly, If you did buy the bike from the guy trying to get rid of it, do you think you are teaching the seller the wrong lesson? Do you think they will turn around in a few months and buy another $500 bike? Do you think you should hold out and demand that they give it to you for free because they shouldn't have purchased it in the first place???? I don't think so!

Pet stores are a different story.

Pet stores are out to make money. Period. Especially the big chain stores like Petco and Petsmart. I used to do the animal writeup sheets when I worked at Petsmart, and my ***** manager always ordered too many animals and never got upset when any died or were hurt/sick. Their suppliers do everything in bulk, like puppy mills, and the animals rarely arrive in good condition. Bottom line: Large stores don't care and will keep ordering - NEVER rescue animals from them!!

Smaller, private owned stores are different and should be treated on a case by case basis. If the store just won't listen to a thing you say and keeps up with bad care, then do not buy animals from them. If the store is trying but just can't seem to get things right, then you can consider buying from them but would probably be better off working with them to get their techniques right first.

All in all, buying snakes or other reptiles from stores is always a risk in some way unless you know the owners and employees really well. Rescuing animals from bad conditions in stores USUALLY only results in the place profiting and getting more animals.

Excellent analagy mcavana.
If you walk into a pet shop, even if it's to just get supplies or look around, you are a customer and supporting that shop. When you buy a pet, regardless of the reason, you are supporting the shop AND the way they treat (or don't) the animals. Purchasing a snake, gecko, bird or fish from a pet shop is not a rescue, it is a purchase.
If you scour the classifieds and Craigslist and decide to purchase something it is still a purchase but could be, at some level I think, considered a rescue. If it was a kid's pet and they tired of it and Mom won't care for it then yes, buy it and bring it back to health...good job!
The middleman or wholesaler...I guess that would depend on the individual situation. There are folks who get animals, rehab them and sell them. If they are doing it right and really care about the animals then I think that's fine. If they are just getting them and turning them around for profit without rehabing or properly caring for them then no, it's not OK in my book. They should NOT be supported but they guy doing a good job should be. Hard to know the difference sometimes though.
If you are buying from a shop just to get it out of there then you are playing into the system and not doing any good in the big picture. If you are buying an animal from a private person then you need to decide for yourself if that's something you want to get involved in and whether it is encouraging the person to continue their bad ways or truly supporting a good cause.

I have purchased adult ball pythons from my local mom and pop shop that were owner surrenders. I don't like how this pet store cares for their reptiles, but I also know that my purchasing the adult isn't going to have him replace it with a new adult - he only gets them when owners decide they no longer want them, so he's not actively looking for adults for sale - heck, it if weren't for me and a few other local members on this forum, they'd cost him more in feed bills.

I went in there yesterday for some crickets for our geckos and he knows that I'm breeding this year. He asked me when he can start buying baby ball pythons from me for sale. I told him that most of mine already have a waiting list and he goes "oh, I don't want the fancy morphs, just your throw-aways". I calmly explained to him that I don't have throw-aways.

I wouldn't mind finding a pet store that I trusted that I could sell my normal males to (and I know that some breeders do sell their normal males to pet stores), but it's not going to happen with this one - not unless he made some major changes. I was able to refrain from saying "not over my dead body!"

I do think that he means well, he is just way in over his head. He is the major exotics bird pet store in the area and from what I can tell (not being a bird person), the birds are well cared for and happy. I've also talked to other customers of his around town who adore him for their other pets (kitties and birds) and gush over John - so he does have some fans - I just haven't met many reptile enthusiasts that frequent his store (unless it's to buy feeders, as he's the only one in the area that has a large supply of live feeders).

He also had THE most adorable long haired calico kitten that I about died for yesterday, but had just adopted my new kitty, Sammy. Two new additions would be a bit much right now, but gosh it was hard not to also bring her home too!

Great topic. I have actually changed my mind on this topic. I use to think it was ok for pet stores to torture snakes in order to catch the occasional "on the fence" snake lover. Simply having access to be able to see and hold a snake is what won me over. And, I'm sure thousands of us have had a similar experience that got us started.

So here's the Catch 22. Pet stores were responsible for me discovering snakes and eventually giving them more room in my home than I have for myself. However, now that I understand these animals, and have grown to love them, it breaks my heart to see them suffer in pet stores.

I don't have the time, money, or space to "save" any more snakes so now I just wait until there are a whole bunch of people gathered around the snakes at my local pet chain, then say (very loudly) something appropriate like "Are you aware that Ball Pythons don't eat crickets!!!"

This is sort of a double edged sword. I might consider paying an individual dummkopf some money to rescue a snake. I believe that paying a retail operation to rescue a snake from them would only encourage continuation of poor husbandry.

At my local mall they have a horrid pet store in it. They had a uro that I tryed to get to rescue that they wanted 300$ (I could not afford that at that time)for that more than likely did not survive the night. The problem with that is every time they sell a reptile, they stick another one in the same cage without even cleaning it. I had been there two weeks before and the tank had the same sand with leo poop still in it. Cases like that are really difficult, do you really want to buy the dieing reptile if they are just going to replace it the next day with another?



Robin, I agree with you not wanting to take your males there. Their birds look great but the reptile department needs some major improvement! The last time I was there there was a dead baby ball in the tank. It was laying on its side with its mouth partially open. If it was not dead then it was close to it.

After doing guinea pig and puppymill rescues for several years, I learned that no matter how difficult it is, you need to refrain from purchasing any animal in a pet store that is being neglected.

It's all about supply and demand. They will supply it if there is a demand and when anyone purchases an animal (whether it is healthy or whether it is to save it from dying) the store sees a demand and will continue to supply that demand.

The best thing to do when you see animals in poor living conditions in pet stores is to call your local Animal Control office and report them.

If you break down and pull out your wallet, the pet store never has to deal with their poor husbandry and they will call their supplier and say I have an empty cage to fill, that cage gets filled and another animal gets to live through the pain and torture until it's "rescued" and then the next victim is brought in to fill that cage. It becomes an endless cycle.

Even if the pet store gives the animal to you free of charge... you've still opened up that cage for another victim.

If you walk away, you take away the demand.... and YES I know how hard it is! I have also seen the cycle end this way.

I would pay for a pet that is no longer wanted or being cared for IF the owner clearly expresses no interest in purchasing another animal.

I would consider paying for an animal in a pet store if it was an owner turn in and not an animal the store normally offers for sale, but there again, I'd be careful because if the store owner starts to see a demand... they may feel the need to start filling that demand.

wow rabernet throw aways!! thats awful..

Any of our "Rescues" came from craigslist.. either someone who lost interest or was moving. One of them we paid $50 for (adult size female) and the other was a free nicely patterned male. in those cases they were rescues. My others came from breeders. I refuse to buy a snake (or any animal really) from a chain petstore. I also dont support buying pets from puppy mills.

great topic

Great answers everyone! My personal philosophy is this -

I will buy a snake as a rescue from a pet store IF the owner says they have no idea what they are doing and need someone who can take care of it. Usually the smaller mom and pop type stores would fit this billing. I won't buy it from a pet store that is looking to profit from the animal. Large chain stores like petco and petsmart come to mind.

I feel bad that I can't "rescue" animals from the large chains, but I know that my dollars spent in those places will more likely than not just result in them buying more and more of the snakes to replace the ones we have bought.

It's a vicious cycle that really has no end unless we as snake aficionados figure out how to educate the casual snake buyer. Which lends itself to who different topic.

Exactly. No matter how you get that animal from the pet store (free or paying) it leaves an empty cage to fill up. Oftentimes a good development will turn out bad in the long run: For example, my Petsmart used to carry ferrets...badly. They would stuff eight of them in a cage meant for 2-3 and no one really wanted to deal with them since they bit (too excited and too many wresting matches most likely). Recently, I was thrilled to see that no one was buying their ferrets and they finally stopped carrying them! Yay for the ferrets!
Unfortunately, that meant they were out one of their 'high price' animals and they started selling snakes to make up the lost revenue. :mad: It started ok with kingsnakes one to a cage, but last week they got in two juvenile Ball pythons and put both in the same cage with one half log hide and a small water dish (and a very outdated info card). I tried talking to them, but of course they 'couldn't do anything about it'.

In the end, you just have to take a deep breath, look the other way and walk out.

I think it all depends on the situation - so sometimes was my vote. I do not like to buy animals from pet stores, I try to keep to supplies. But I always end up looking around to see what kind of critters they have. If they have one thats not being taken care of and kept properly I will give them my :twocents:, and end up going back multiple time to check on it. Sad. If I have the knowledge and the means to take it in I will, if I don't I start going through a network of animal lover friends to see if someone can rescue if I'm not able. 9 times out of 10 the petstore will give you the animal at no charge just to shut you up and keep you from stirring the pot so to say. I tend to be a bit loud so the other customers hear how badly the animals are being kept and the store owner/managers, etc. don't like that very much. Too flippin bad for them. Those critters deserve better. I have rescued my share of critters from potbelly pigs to parakeets, dogs, cats - I could go on all day with this...:D Sorry this post was sooo long winded.

I am constantly amazed by the absolutely terrible reptile husbandry that I see at the pet stores around here. I went to one the other day and there was a red tail boa for "$99 with all accessories, no health guarantee". They had it housed in a tank with no hides, no temperature or humidity gauge, filthy water and a (as far as I could tell) non-temp regulated HEAT ROCK as the only source of warmth. The snake was so sickly looking, skinny as hell and with stuck shed all over his/her body. Meanwhile there was a book right next to the freakin cage explaining in great detail the proper way to house boas. I wanted so badly to take that little guy home with me but A) I can't support a store that treats their animals that badly and B) I don't think I could afford the vet bills it would take to get the animal back to health!
So my vote on this is NO. I bought my first (and only right now) BP from a local pet store and she had mites right off the bat. She's fine now and the pet store actually did a pretty good job of taking care of the rest of the snakes they had that had mites also but in the future I will be purchasing my snakes from either a recommended breeder or a pet store that specializes in reptiles like Zoo Creatures.
just my :2cent: later y'all!

we cant go around "saving" every poorly treated animal in every single pet store cuz not only would the pet stores profit in the end but our living areas would look like zoos(or bigger ones than they are now).

many times the "tortured" reptile leaves the pet store only to go home to some impulse buyer who continues the same poor husbandry practices as the store they purchased it from.

because of this i think that pet stores should only be able to sell animal supplies and never live animals. now how this can be done is up to whoever can and or will do this. its very unlikely and im sure many people will disagree with my opinion but after working at a big chain pet store for a couple years this is how i feel.

i feel that animals should be sold by breeders who are passionate about and love their animals. and if it means that all of us would need to get permits then so be it. the ones who go out of their way to get the permits are most likely the ones who will love and care for properly the animals that they are breeding.

now i know that there are pros and cons to the way i feel but its also never gonna happen so no need to jump all over my fantasy world...