Lets talk lesser and butters

So, going on the curtails of the stunning lesser owned by JaBa... (oh, yes, just gorgeous)

Do you actually think Lessers and Butters are the same thing? Or are they different. :floating:

:gj:

I think they're the same, just lighter and darker shades.

If you look at the pictures posted by some of the major breeders it seems to me that butters have a darker background than most lessers? I know that the one I purchased from Kat looks much different than the male linked above.

Well, how about the difference they create when combined with other morphs?

For example, the butter spider and the lesser spider.

Butters seem more dirty to me. Their patterns seem to break up more especially on the butter spider!

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Well, how about the difference they create when combined with other morphs?

For example, the butter spider and the lesser spider.

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Exactly, Butters seem to be darker and it shows in the spider cross.

I think there two different morphs, lots of similaritys but lots of differences.

To me, butters and lessers seem to be basically different lines of the same morph, similar to pastels. Sometimes they look different, and their supers look a fair bit different, but the genes react in a similar fashion.

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Originally Posted by jknudson

To me, butters and lessers seem to be basically different lines of the same morph, similar to pastels. Sometimes they look different, and their supers look a fair bit different, but the genes react in a similar fashion.

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I agree with jkudson. Same but different. ;)

What does everything think about these two morphs as they age? When I see adult butters they look sort of washed out with not much contrast, whereas the adult Lessers I have seen continue to look fantastic. Is this just the limited specimens I have seen or does anyone else feel similar?

JonV

I still honestly think that the two morphs are part of the same gene complex, but with different individual gene expression. That would also explain why some butters look more like lessers and some lessers more like butters. (ie it's not one single gene that causes the butter effect, nor a single gene that causes the lesser effect, but a combination of genes from the same toolkit).

My .02


Cheers,
Kat

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Well, how about the difference they create when combined with other morphs?

For example, the butter spider and the lesser spider.

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Well goodness! I had not seen those 2 pictures before. Hmmm, might be revamping my original thought that they are the same morph.....

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Originally Posted by janeothejungle

I still honestly think that the two morphs are part of the same gene complex, but with different individual gene expression. That would also explain why some butters look more like lessers and some lessers more like butters. (ie it's not one single gene that causes the butter effect, nor a single gene that causes the lesser effect, but a combination of genes from the same toolkit).

My .02


Cheers,
Kat

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So are you suggesting different allele combos then?

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Well, how about the difference they create when combined with other morphs?

For example, the butter spider and the lesser spider.

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hehe. just what i was thinking...:D

Here are pics of my adult Butter...

Someone post some of an adult Lesser.

Butter
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...sButter020.jpg

Butter x Black Pastel
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...ackPastel1.jpg

lesser and butters are ugly.. They all look the same with a little different color. Big Deal! Mojaves on the other hand.. Kick arse!
JMHO!!:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Well, how about the difference they create when combined with other morphs?

For example, the butter spider and the lesser spider.

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I think the examples you are using are an older animal and a younger animal which to me explains much of the darkness. Not that it's that much of a difference mind you.

Personally I think they're the same morph, just different founder animals from different wild populations. I predict that the more they're outbred the quicker you won't be able to tell them apart.

You can't tell them apart now in a lot of collections.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t...SIVE31/091.jpg

1170 female lesser

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t...1/IMG_0752.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jknudson

To me, butters and lessers seem to be basically different lines of the same morph, similar to pastels. Sometimes they look different, and their supers look a fair bit different, but the genes react in a similar fashion.

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yep, exactly!

Lessers all come from Ralphs line and Butters are from a different wild caught lineage/s of a similar morph. I think the pastel example from Jason was a good reference. Both parents also have alot to do with look of babies(the normals too) which can clean or dirty up a snake. They both are beautiful snakes and I would chose the snake before the morph.

What ever floats your boat;)

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

Lessers all come from Ralphs line and Butters are from a different wild caught lineage/s of a similar morph. I think the pastel example from Jason was a good reference. Both parents also have alot to do with look of babies(the normals too) which can clean or dirty up a snake. They both are beautiful snakes and I would chose the snake before the morph.

What ever floats your boat;)

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i agree whit that.........

Here is the real test..

Which ones are which???

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...s/P1050040.jpg

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Here is the real test..

Which ones are which???

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...s/P1050040.jpg

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touche

i think butters came from mark and kim bell..im not so sure though.

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Here is the real test..

Which ones are which???

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...s/P1050040.jpg

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hmm..butter, lesser,

butter, lesser, butter, butter. lol!!

did i win anything? :D:rofl:

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Originally Posted by munding

hmm..butter, lesser,

butter, lesser, butter, butter. lol!!

did i win anything? :D:rofl:

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There are Mojaves in there too...

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

There are Mojaves in there too...

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arrgh.. hahaha i knew it was a trick...yeah..the dark one cant be a lesser or a butter...maybe there's a spider there too.. hmm..:D:oops::fishslap::stupidme::stupidme::stupidme:

I think for the most part people with lesser's think they are the same, and people with butters usually think they are different. I have lesser's and think they are the same morph. I totally agree that they are different lines of the same morph. I have thought that from the first time I saw a butter and there has been nothing I have seen so far to make me change my opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Here is the real test..

Which ones are which???

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...s/P1050040.jpg

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The three on the left are mojaves, two on the right are butters, and the top middle is a lesser! Am I close? Its that or they are all mojaves and butters/all lessers

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

The three on the left are mojaves, two on the right are butters, and the top middle is a lesser! Am I close? Its that or they are all mojaves and butters/all lessers

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Nope...

Ummm ? Seriously just random guesses!!

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...dy/lessers.jpg

Closer, but nope..

HINT: There is only ONE mojave in there.

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Closer, but nope..

HINT: There is only ONE mojave in there.

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gah... Is the only mojave the one to the far left?

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

gah... Is the only mojave the one to the far left?

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Looks like one, but Im 100% sure that the one under the one labled butter is a mojave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

gah... Is the only mojave the one to the far left?

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No.

Heather your messing with my mind! :P

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...y/P1050040.jpg

Closer, but still no. :D

Lol, I gotta give up. I'm just too uncertain with them!

I would tell you the answer, but I want to see if anyone else out there can get it...

Alright... I spy three lessers, to the left, two butters to the right, and one mojave under a butter

Im thinking the one hideing under the butters is a butter too! I just now saw it:P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Alright... I spy three lessers, to the left, two butters to the right, and one mojave under a butter

Im thinking the one hideing under the butters is a butter too! I just now saw it:P

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No.

hmmm...maybe they're all mojaves!!!lol!! :D:D:D:D:D

ok last guess...they are all lessers. the one underneath is a mojave.

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Originally Posted by munding

ok last guess...they are all lessers. the one underneath is a mojave.

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Nope :D

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Nope :D

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lol..:D now i think it doesnt matter whether you get a butter or a lesser if people cant even tell them apart! lol:rofl:

The only one I'm sure about is the mojave, it's the darkest one in the middle. As to which are lessers and which are butters I have no clue.

After compiling information and determining that my answer will be different from anyone else who was told they were wrong..

I have come up with this.
I'm sorry Connie!! I'm a visual learner.. if I had to type out what I thought was what on this it would kill my brain! And your idea was just too perfect. :oops:

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/8562/41135314lu5.jpg

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

After compiling information and determining that my answer will be different from anyone else who was told they were wrong..

I have come up with this.
I'm sorry Connie!! I'm a visual learner.. if I had to type out what I thought was what on this it would kill my brain! And your idea was just too perfect. :oops:

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/8562/41135314lu5.jpg

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hmmm not to sure about the lessers

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

hmmm not to sure about the lessers

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I'm narrowing down the options. ;]