PAM Alternative

I was online looking for a site where I can buy PAM because poor Foster is covered with mites thanks to that crappy substrate that I bought last week. I will NEVER buy Exo-Terra substrate again because of it...that is how bad it was! It was very wet and loaded with mites!

Anyhow, while searching for an online retailer for PAM, I found another BP forum where somebody had posted the following:

Provent-A-Mite is a 0.5% Permethrin Aerosol Spray that sells for around $20.00 for a 6 oz. can.

Enter everyone's favorite discount retailer - Wal-Mart.

In the pharmacy department at Wal-Mart you will find an aerosol product called Equate Bedding Spray. Equate Bedding Spray like Provent-A-Mite is a 0.5% Permethrin spray. It comes in a 5 oz. can and costs around $4.00.

I'm wondering if the above statement is true and if anybody has any experience with the equate stuff. I know I should get the PAM but money is very tight right now. If I can at least use the Walmart stuff until I can get the PAM, that would be great. But, I don't want to take any chances if it's risky.

If I buy the stuff, I can take a picture of the label showing the ingredients. If somebody could compare it against a PAM label, I would appreciate it.

What about the other ingredients, just because it has lets say 1 out of 25 ingredients, wouldnt make it the same, thats the way I would look at it.

I totally agree but since I've never seen a label from a can of PAM, I can't say.
That is why I asked if somebody could compare the two. I mean, if it's the same stuff, why pay $20 when you can get the same stuff for $4, right? But, if there is a difference then I'll pay the $20!

agreed

AND, if I can get it simply by going to the local Walmart, that is another plus. Although I'm sure with only one BP, one can of either would last a while. Or, am I wrong on that?

Tanya, one can of P.A.M. will last a very long time with only one snake. Personally I've heard both sides of the Equate vs Provent-A-Mite debate and it always comes down to this for me.

It's $20.00. That's less than what it costs my family to order in some pizza. That's less than renting some movies, buying chips and soda and sitting home. I can give up one pizza or one night of movies to buy a product tested safe for our snakes. For me that's an easy decision. Sure I have to order it online but it only takes a few days to arrive. I could run over to WalMart and spend that $4.00 but then I might hurt our snakes or I might just lose a night's sleep worrying that pinching pennies could find me waking up to a damaged animal.

It's just not worth it for me, Tanya. I don't put meds in my kids mouths that aren't tested safe for children, I don't spray things around the snakes that aren't test safe for them.

Also for your reading....a quote from a thread on this topic. Jamie Glass contacted Bob Pound and this was the jist of the conversation. Granted Bob makes and sells P.A.M. so he's biased but I trust the information as much or more than I trust what any chain store supplier product prints on it's label (plus using Equate for snake mites is an "extra label" usage to begin with).

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I spent about 30 minutes on the phone with Bob Pound, the manufacturer of Provent A Mite. He may be the most knowledgeable person about pest control and the chemicals used this side of my local exterminator. I am sure the information that he provided which I will post here will be dismissed as bias by those who believe beyond a reasonable doubt that Equate is:

A. The same product in a different can
B. Equally as safe for reptiles
C. Equally as effective

Take it as you will, but this information is pretty damn convincing in my mind (which may not be on par with some of the insta-experts that reside here).

Here you go (his direct information will be in quotes):

Claim: Equate is the same product in a different can and is equally safe for reptiles as Provent A Mite

"The word permethrin is a generic name of a group of pyrethroid chemical isomers. This is like saying everything with the word soap is the same thing. Put your wet hand into a box of powdered laundry detergent and see if it is the same as a bar of ivory, but they are both "soap".

Without exception, these other products use a much more toxic isomer as they are all designed to be applied to material that maybe will have the potential for contact with mammals, which have a completely different physiology than reptiles do. These products are designed to be as toxic as possible to get a quick "knock down". These higher toxicities will not harm mammals, but are documented to harm lower vertebrates, including reptiles, fish, amphibians, mollusks and so forth and therefore can be used for these other uses. Also, only a very small percentage of what is in the can is the "active" ingredient, the rest is always a trade secret of the company, so will never be disclosed (only the generic active name has to be disclosed under EPA regulations). Different isomers have differing toxicities and again, only a range of the cis-trans ratio is given on a label, so one can never find out what is really in the can (again trade secret).

Since a product is only approved by the EPA for the uses listed on the label, chemicals in the formula that are not toxic to the host for the testing submitted, doesn't mean they would not be toxic to a host not listed. If fact many of the "inerts" used in these permethrin formulas are toxic to reptiles. If the company tried to receive EPA approval with these formulas for use on reptiles, they would not, as the EPA would not allow a product to be sold that would harm the host listed on the label. This is why the EPA regulations state that it is a federal offense to sell or use a product inconsistent with the label, not only because of the risk to the host, but also because such usage can create resistance.

Many products for example, use a more toxic isomer and then use a synergist such as PBO. PBO breaks through the insect's defense and its synergistic activity makes the insecticide more powerful and effective. With the high cost of insecticides, PBO effectively reduces the cost by allowing the product to use les s active ingredient to obtain the mortality rate desired. The problem with this is PBO is absolutely toxic to reptiles with several published studies regarding using PBO for the killing of brown tree and other snakes confirming this.

Despite anyone's claim to the contrary, many of these other "identical" products have injured and killed many reptiles as we get the phone calls from people telling us after the fact. Also many times, the exposure can lead to chronic health problems instead of an acute reaction, so if the animal dies at a later date, no one looks back and understands the actual cause of death. This is a classic example with no pest strips. No clinical studies were ever performed and people just started using them, using their animals as guinea pigs. Only after many years of usage were the risks associated with them disclosed. This has been established by many leading zoos and vets, but even now, many people still swear they are the best thing to use and do not pose any risk."

Provent-a-mite™ is the only product that has been approved by the EPA and USDA], has undergone extensive clinical and field studies to insure that will eliminate, not just control a mite or tick problem and is unique enough to have received a patent. No other product is more effective or can make these claims and certainly no other product is the same as Provent-a-mite™”


Claim: Equate (and other similar products) are equally as effective in killing mites and their eggs


"Provent-a-mite™ is the only product that will create residual protection that will not drop down to levels that can create resistance. We use a proprietary "time" release that ensures that it will create a long term residual effect at a high enough concentration to prevent the potential t o create resistant pests. Since mites and ticks can carry several diseases that can be harmful or fatal to the host, just getting an infestation is already too late if the pest was infected. Applying Provent-a-mite™to a cloth and then wiping around any openings in a cage will provide a barrier that will last a minimum of 30 days (usually 60 to 180 days). This will kill any ectoparasites before they can infest and potentially infect an animal. None of these other products can do this as their formulas are designed to break down very quickly, often in as little as 48 hours.

Provent-a-mite™ is also one of the least expensive methods when one compares the cost per application and the number of applications required. To treat an average 4' x 2' cage is approximately 50¢ with usually only one application required. To use the product preventatively, the cost for an average cage is about 5¢. The product has an average shelf life of 7 years. One of the biggest problems is that many people overuse the product, so the can will not treat as many cages as it actually should, costing more to use it than necessary.”

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I don’t have a can to look at but I believe the only active ingredient is Pyrethins. I use Bengal Roach spray for substrate, cages and the snake room. The active ingredient is 2% pyrethrins. I know this is a stronger dose but we do not use it on the snake itself or spray the cage when the snake or water bowl are inside. We use repti-relief on the snake itself. We have only found mites in our collection once and using this method of spraying with Bengal 1 a week and repti-relief daily the mites never spread from the infected snake to any others.

We still spray the bedding, cages every other month and carpet once per month to prevent any further problems. We havent had any issues since.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Also for your reading....a quote from a thread on this topic. Jamie Glass contacted Bob Pound and this was the jist of the conversation. Granted Bob makes and sells P.A.M. so he's biased but I trust the information as much or more than I trust what any chain store supplier product prints on it's label (plus using Equate for snake mites is an "extra label" usage to begin with).

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Enough said! I really don't have the money right now but I'll manage somehow. I'll order the PAM right now! Can somebody recommend a site where I can get it? The quicker I can get it, the better...so somebody who ships quickly or located in/close to Florida would be ideal!

There you go Tanya and I think you are making a very responsible decision here. VERY experienced keepers might well choose another route to go but for most of us with our smaller collections and less years of experience, I firmly believe This is the safest product to use.

http://www.pro-products.com/miteandtemp.html

Kelly, I'd like to address using a roach spray with 2% verus 0.5%. First is the issue of it being the EXACT same active ingredient and that's been up for debate as far as I've read. Secondly is the issue of simply overdoing it. Would you take 4 times the amount of medication advised on your pill bottle? Would you mix any chemical at four times it's strength and expect an identical result? You may well be comfortable with this decision and I respect that but I am uncomfortable with advising a new keeper to follow your lead when it's very "extra label" and at a much, much stronger mixture.

Same ingredients does not mean same product!

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Originally Posted by Bob Pound
Since all of these other products are designed to be used with or around mammals, this is not a great concern as the toxicity to mammals, even the most toxic formulas, will not have a significant impact on them. Since these products were approved by the EPA for the labeled use only, no studies had to be performed to see if the specific cis-trans ratio or overall formula would potentially hurt any other type of host not on the label. Additionally, most of the formula is listed as inerts because the testing required by the EPA was only for the hosts, pests and sites listed on the label. Many of these inerts can potentially be toxic to reptiles and if the manufacture went to the EPA for this approval, their formula would be denied due to the fact that these inert ingredients would actually be an active (and potentially harmful) ingredient if used on reptiles.

We had to spend a significant amount of time and money providing several studies to the EPA before we were finally granted our approval. The EPA originally denied our application because they knew that most (they assumed all) permethrin formulas were toxic to reptiles, so we had to complete several more studies to prove that our formula wasn’t.

As to your claims that our product is just another permethrin product that is the same as all of the others, you are sadly mistaken. A master label can be approved for many alternate formulas that doesn’t (and never will) have to be disclosed to the public. Few small companies can handle all of the costs to manufacture a product totally on their own, especially a low production specialty market item, so they team up with a company that is large enough to do so. Just because we used another company to help us defray the costs of production doesn't mean that it is their product and on the contrary, since we have a patent, no other company can produce or market our product. We took our formula to them and asked them to help us get it on the market. If you actually scrutinize the CIC label, you will see that there is no claim for use with reptiles, or to kill any ectoparasites that feed on reptiles. You will only find these claims on our independent 73617 label. By "backdooring" an alternate formula on the label was the only way to keep costs from being prohibitive. If you do some more searching, you will discover that the CIC product is not on the market in any other form with the exception of Provent-a-mite. Why? Because we were exclusively using this master label to save time and money. It is actually even more complicated as we also have received other federal approvals that will not show up on any registration. No other product can or does use our formula, to make this assumption could be a deadly mistake. Many people have called us after the fact stating that they did kill their animals using other “same as” permethrin products.

Another problem with using off label products is the potential to create a resistant strain of pests because the formula used exposes them to a sub lethal dose, so it doesn’t kill them, instead allowing them to develop resistance to the chemical. Insects are amazingly adaptable, and possess an enzyme system called the mixed-function oxidases (MFO's) that give them the ability to de-toxify and become resistant to many insecticides, especially synthetic pyrethroids. Continual application of pesticides not designed for a specific use start the build-up of resistance and thus the efficacy of the product diminishes. We are very aware of this and Provent-a-mite is formulated specifically so this can’t happen. Using other formulas can expose the pest to a sub lethal dose. No one thinks this is a big deal until we do finally create a strain of resistant ectoparasites that can’t be controlled. This might sound like science fiction, except for the fact that it is happening at the present time with many chemical formulas, including Nix. The use of Nix has created resistant head lice in several countries.

I invite anyone to call these other manufactures to see if they will support the use of their products for this purpose or that they are the same as Provent-a-mite™. One can contact the regulatory affairs manager at Qualis (make Equate for Walmart), Inc., 4600 Park Avenue, Des Moines, IA 50321-1237, (515) 243-3000 or Spectrum Brands (make Repel Permanone), U.S. Home & Garden Headquarters, 13260 Corporate Exchange Drive, Bridgeton, MO 63044,(314) 427-0780 or (800)242-1166; just to name a few.
Provent-a-mite™ is the only product that has been approved by the EPA and USDA, has undergone extensive clinical and field studies to insure that will eliminate, not just control a mite or tick problem and is unique enough to have received a US patent. No other product is more effective or can make these claims and certainly no other product is the same as Provent-a-mite™
Since you say that your statements are fact and mine are only a biased opinion, would you please indicate your academic background and experience dealing with pesticide formulation development, the USEPA and the rules and regulations regarding the registration process as well as how many times you have been involved with the EPA, manufactured a pesticide product or gone through the process of a pesticide application?
The bottom line is that anyone can use what they want, but there is no way anyone knows what is actually in the product being used, only what the label states. Because of industry trade secrets, no one will ever be able to find out. Unless the approved EPA label specifically states that the product can be used on a reptile to control specific ectoparasites, the user is taking the risk of causing acute or more often, chronic health problems to their animals as well as the issue of resistance. Shall we talk about Pest Strips?

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Originally Posted by Bob Pound
One does need a chemical background to understand that there are many possible variations to the molecule and that these variations can significantly alter the toxicity of the isomer, not to mention the other chemicals in a formula. Most of these products are developed to be produced as cheaply as possible and to be as toxic as possible so they will be more effective in killing the pest. The cheaper molecules available are more toxic. As I said previously, since these other products are all formulated to use with or around mammals, it really doesn’t matter as (with the possible exception of one formula we are aware of) these molecules have a relatively low toxicity with mammals. It is a very different story with other living things, especially lower vertebrates and invertebrates. This is why we had such a hard time getting our approval from the EPA, as they are experts concerning these chemicals and based on such knowledge were convinced from the beginning that we couldn’t develop a formula that wouldn’t be toxic to reptiles, either acutely or chronically.
It can take years with our animals being used as guinea pigs before any potential problems become apparent using any off label product. Pest strips are a classic example of this. All of the experts touted how good they were to eradicate ectoparasites and only after many years of us using them, was it discovered that they were potentially harmful to our animals, causing health problems that often took a long time before causing the demise of the animal. Many experts now acknowledge the problem with their use. Even though their potential toxicity can’t be disputed, there are many people that still swear by them and use them. Few people would use an off labeled product on themselves, their family, dog or cat, but in this industry some people don’t think twice about using something off label on their reptiles, despite any risk that may be associated with its use.

I can guarantee you that the formulas these other companies manufacture are all different and they are trade secrets, so one will never know what it is. Companies use different suppliers, who sell different isomers and the inerts will be what that company has decided to use.

It is bad enough when someone uses a product with no real knowledge of what they are actually using, but it is worse when they start making statements purporting to be an expert, trying to convince others that they know what they are talking about, when in reality, they do not. Use what you want, but when your expensive animal dies next week, next month, next year, maybe 2 or 3 years down the road, or starts throwing slugs, or develops other health problems, you can wonder if it was as a result of using unproven, off label products.

Bob Pound promist@comcast.net
Pro Products www.pro-products.com

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Sorry if I caused any problems. I was only asking because I didn't want to use something that I shouldn't use on my snake. If my question caused any grief, please forgive me.

I could have asked on that other forum if using the equate stuff was safe for my BP but I wouldn't dare trust another forum!

Thanks again guys for all of your help! Foster thanks you, too!

Provent-a-mite
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_...073617#Prod_Id

Equate bedding spray
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_...NR=03479700084


Tanya, I have used both. I know many breeders that have used both. I know many that now only use equate.

If you do a search online for comparisons of the two you will find that this topic has been discussed on dozens of forums for years. Hundreds of keepers/breeders have stated that they use equate without any problems and it works great.

I use it as a precautionary step with any new additions and have for a few years. I have used both products in the same manner and haven't noticed any negative reactions with my animals and received the same results. Just my experiences and opinion.

As far as the safest treatment, I'm really intrigued and interested in a lot of information I've been reading about predatory mites. Mite eating mites no doubt is safer than any insecticide.

Thanks, Dennis for the input. I have already ordered the PAM so there is no sense in going out and buying the equate right now. Twenty bucks isn't a lot but right now, it's more than I can afford but I have to do what I have to do. We got this snake with the knowledge that there is going to be care and expenses involved so I'll have to cut costs elsewhere.

Something else that swayed me towards PAM is that being a new bp owner, or any snake for that matter, I may not pick up on any signs should something go wrong. I don't know what equate (or PAM for that matter) could do to her so I wouldn't even know what to look for should something happen. At least I know that PAM is intended for snakes and is therefore safer to use than a generic brand bedding spray. Perhaps if I was more experienced I would go for the equate but for now, I think it's wise for me to stick with PAM. It's not like I'm going to have to spend $20 for a new can every month...this one can should last me long enough with only having one snake to care for.

Thanks again!

I understand the concern of overdoing it. I have always watched the animals for issues and now that I know there is a product that has a closer level of pyrethrins I will use that. This was just the closest thing I could find and it happened to work well.

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Originally Posted by TanyaL

Sorry if I caused any problems. I was only asking because I didn't want to use something that I shouldn't use on my snake. If my question caused any grief, please forgive me.

I could have asked on that other forum if using the equate stuff was safe for my BP but I wouldn't dare trust another forum!

Thanks again guys for all of your help! Foster thanks you, too!

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Tanya, don't ever be sorry to ask a question here. If your question sparks a bit of debate and discussion, so much the better. That's how we all learn, share and bounce ideas off each other and share husbandry choices. As the snake's owner, you can decide what you want to do about anything but at least this way you get information from various sources with varying opinions. :)