Sand or no sand?

So, I have heard a few different aspects of having sand in Leo cages, and was curious on everyones out look on it.

Now I know Bone Aid can die the leo's feets, and I was told from a two different people that it is bad, and that it is good.

Do you have sand in your leo's cages? Have you ever?

I have never had sand in any of my Leo's tanks and never will. It's just not worth the risk, it can cause impaction and kill them. The calcium sands are the worst, they do not dissolve (it actually clumps!) and can build up over time...it happens all the time. Since they are made of calcium they actually encourage ingestion, Leo's need calcium so lick it. Leo's lick everything! If any sand is to be used it should be fine, washed/sifted play sand and ONLY for adults, never babies or juvies. Keep in mind though, Leo's don't really live on sand in the wild, it's more of a hard packed clay and rocky area. It's not a natural substrate and can be very harmful in the long run so it's not something I use or suggest using. Nothing loose, stick with solid substrates.

In my leo's enclosure, I put paper towels on half and have some tile in the other half. My leo seems to normally poop on the tile, so it is really easy to just pick out the dirty tile, replace it with clean ones, while I wash and sanitize the one that I took out. Then I replace the paper towel every week (unless it gets dirty then I replace it as needed).

To me, sand just doesn't seem worth it. I don't want to run the risk of impaction, plus it just seems so much harder to clean and to keep clean.

i spent some time yesterday talking to the employee's at the reptile store about my leo, and was asking a milion and one questions.

She told me that sand is good to use in leos tanks, that the risk of the leo being impacted is slim to none. I've also done some research online, and online is saying the same thing as the reptile store.

I'm a bit confused here to say the least lol

I've been keeping leopard geckos for 10 years, so I started keeping them before everyone decided sand was bad. I've never had a problem with impaction.

Obviously not every Leo that is kept on sand is going to become impacted and die, but it is possible and it does happen. A Leo kept on tile, reptile carpet or paper towel just isn't going to become impacted (from substrate) so it is a much safer bet.
My vet is diabolically opposed to it, he yelled at me once about other people and went off on a tirade about it's use saying far too many Leo's die from sand and that it is 100% preventable. He couldn't understand why folks went against his advice and ended up with impacted, dead Leo's and were surprised about it! He wasn't yelling at me personally but felt he could vent about it to someone who didn't use it.
I don't know how your pet/reptile shop is but do know that whatever I'm told at any of the ones near me is usually wrong ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by qiksilver

I've been keeping leopard geckos for 10 years, so I started keeping them before everyone decided sand was bad. I've never had a problem with impaction.

---

I have done some research on sand, and of course there are some bad cases where impaction happens due to sand, and of course those are the stories you hear. You never hear the "good stories"

I just recently got a leo, and had her on a napkin, and added sand to her cage yesterday. She seems to like it, and it makes it a little more appealing on the eyes! :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Clementine_3

Obviously not every Leo that is kept on sand is going to become impacted and die, but it is possible and it does happen.

---

I do agree with you... but on the other aspect, people get into car accidents, and die, but all of us get into our cars everyday. ;)

I've only been keeping leos for a few decades so maybe I'm not experienced enough to have an opinion.

I keep mine on sand. From the time they hatch until they die.

Occasionally I'll lose a baby, maybe one or two out of a hundred but they may well have had something wrong with them anyway.

As far as leos NOT having sand where they're from, that's a bunch of bullsnot.

Sure, some of the habitat is hard packed clay but some isn't.

If you like sand, use it. If you don't, then don't use it. As far as it being bad for the lizard, I say it isn't.

I wonder how many crickets they find in the wild. Or how many roaches. Or how many beetle larva. Of course, you are free to change the diet they've evolved eating but no no no, don't use the same substrate they did that evolving on because some lackwit lost a gecko or two that was too stupid not to eat sand with it's food.

The thing people forget is that in nature there is a natural culling process and part of that process is that if you are too stupid to not eat sand, you don't get to pass your genes on to the next generation.

I've kept many many many leos on sand and have lost a VERY small number due to impaction.

just like 99% of the worlds questions, everyone has different views on them.

thank you everyone for telling your input :)

I use paper towels. I'd heard to many horror stories about the sand before I started keeping leos. I've also heard people complain how hard it is to tell how clean the sand is...

Each to his own.

NO DES, NO DES, NO DES!!! As you know, we used ONLY paper towels or tile.. its not worth risking impaction, especially not at echos age.

Your gecko is a YOUNG hatchling.. there is no reason under the sun to ever, EVER use sand at that age... but hey its your gecko.

I find it interesting in these cases to see the different points of view. Some have had leos for decades and say it's fine to use sand. On the flip side, there are people keeping them for a very short time defending that sand should never be used.

Desiree, you'll quickly learn to sift the grain from the chaff and through it find your own rhythm. :gj:

There's also a HUGE difference between fine-grain playsand and that crap Calci-Sand.

Juveniles should not be kept on sand, adults tend to fair better on it due to their larger digestive tracts.

Calci-Sand and all of it's other counterparts likes to swell up and turn to cement once inside A lizard's digestive system.

I keep both my Leopard Gecko and my Beardie on paper towels. Easier to see messes, they don't grab a huge bite of sand with their roaches, and it doesn't get everywhere.

If you just HAVE to use sand, go to HOME DEPOT and get a 50lb bag of finely sifted Playsand.

Also, the pet store employee told you it was ok to use it because she gets commission off of that sale. She could care less if it's safe for the animal.

Calcisand is a Bozo No No.

We ALL agree on that.

I started my leos on paper towels, then switched to sand when they grew up. It's been 7+ years with no problems. I like sand because it's easy to spot clean (I use a fish net and sift it) and my leos seem to really enjoy digging in it. I use Zoo-Med Repti-Sand, it's really, really fine (way smaller grains than play sand.) They have calcium dishes and eat mealies out of a dish also so I'm pretty sure they don't accidentally eat any while hunting. I'm not so sure about them licking it or not, but like I said it's been over 7 years with no issues, just fat happy leos.

http://homepage.mac.com/exoticdvm/re...oAlbum181.html

Enough said

I have a female blizzard that kept eating sand when it was a juvenile until it became impacted. She didn't have a bowel movement for weeks and I could see the dark sand inside her. Finally she pooped out some all sand turds. Now I keep her on paper towels and she always is into the calcium dish. I have others and only she is a big sand and calcium eater. I only have 2 years in keeping Leos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beardedragon

http://homepage.mac.com/exoticdvm/re...oAlbum181.html

Enough said

---

Actually, I disagree.

You have a picture of ONE lizard who was so stupid it felt a need to eat sand.

I have experience with HUNDREDS who WERE smart enough to NOT eat sand.

Hmmmmm, one and hundreds......

Yeah, enough said.

I think it comes down to this: Hatchlings and Juvies on sand is a big risk because they're young, clumsy and sometimes fragile. Adults on sand is more acceptable if you feed them with a dish and use fine grain sand, not that crap calci stuff.

I kept my leo for over 10 years on fine grain playsand and only had slight trouble because he loved to dive at his food snout first then lick the sand off his nose. After I started using a dish to feed him all was fine. When he got older and slower, I switched to tile to avoid the impaction risk alltogether.

If you like sand, and so does your gecko, then use it. But do so smartly and keep an eye on him at feeding time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beardedragon

http://homepage.mac.com/exoticdvm/re...oAlbum181.html

Enough said

---

First let me make clear that I don't own a leo or any sort of gecko, and never have (yet). But my younger one is off and on in love with them, so I've been off & on reading up on them (yes, I know that counts for nothing).

Asides from what Wilomn has already pointed out... this is just one gecko... what I noticed when I looked at the above link is this:

Quote:

---

The intestinal contents contained a sand marketed as "digestable" for reptiles.

---

Sounds like calci sand to me? Which everyone seems to agree is bad? So this example doesn't even seem to fit in to the debate about whether or not something like play sand is ok.

I just dont understand why you wouldnt just buy a 12x12 tile and stick it at the bottom.. thats the exact dimensions of your current enclosure. So much easier, safer, nicer looking (imo) and wayyy easier to keep clean and sanitary. When you have sand you rarely get it all (used sand with beardeds) Furthermore, you have a baby-baby leo.. i just dont want to see anything happen to it, especially something that could be so easily avoided. Sand you have to replace, over time.. buy one 12x12 tile for what $3 bucks? and your set for life.

However, everyone is different and you have to decide what works best for you.. again Desiree, im just looking out for your animal. I would hate to hear it died or needed medical attention over something totally preventable. I certainly wouldnt steer you down the wrong road, especially on an animal i hand selected for you. (not suggesting anyone else would)

Wow. I did not realize that this thread got so interesting.


Not only did I speak to the two employees who were working at hte reptile store, I did my research on it before I went to the reptile store, AND when I was there I read the book on Leo's. SatanicIntention it was not a matter of making the sale or not. We had already dropped 75 bucks into the place, what was another 10? She had her baby leo's on sand, and I had asked her about it. I highly doubt it was not a matter of she could care less about my animal, any person that does not give a hoot about animals should not be working in a reptile/animal store.

Not only do people here put their leos on sand, it is recomended in the "how to care for leo's" book. wilomn is prime example. She has has hundreds of leos on sand with out any issues. Its all a matter of hearing about horror stories. Of course people hear about the wonderful things there is to hear about having leos, or we would not all own them. Agreed? And of course with every good, comes the bad. There are stories of leos becoming impacted, vet stories, personal stories, breeders stories, you name it, its out there. People are more likely to spred the horror stories, then they are the good stories. Thats just how life is.

I understand there are people that do not agree with putting leos on sand. People are intitled to their opinions, thats what makes us human, but just because you think it is wrong, does not make it true.

Ashley I can understand your anger/disbelief of me choosing to use sand. You set me up with everything, but on the other hand, it seems like you are acting like I have put sand in there, not reading up on it. That I am putting the leo in complete harms way. I have read up on it. I have. I know there are cases out there where leos get impacted, but there are millions of cases where they don't.

She likes the sand, she has dug herself a small hole under the hide away box, that she sleeps in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

Actually, I disagree.

You have a picture of ONE lizard who was so stupid it felt a need to eat sand.

I have experience with HUNDREDS who WERE smart enough to NOT eat sand.

Hmmmmm, one and hundreds......

Yeah, enough said.

---

So your saying that as long as only a couple die its perfectly fine ?? To me thats not being a good owner if you think that way.What if your favorite gecko is the one to do it?:rolleyes: Sand harbors bacteria like a sponge and is a pain to clean, I just do not see why people use it? Impaction happens over time, each little grain on their food slowly adds up, ive seen it plenty of times in leos and beardies. Now, if your happy that only a few LOVED pets are dieing from sand and as long as a few hundreds are doing fine, then so be it.

my argument is there is a risk.. and as i told ou via IM its no different then getting into a car and not putting children in a carseat (much higher magnitude yes), its an unnessesary risk. There are other options to use besides sand.. there is no good reason, besides looks to use sand. if she wanted to make a burrow you could give her some paper towel under her hide and she would like it just as much. to me its about the animal.. i dont care how pretty the cage looks if it meets their ideals

thats my 0.02 im not going to say anything more, its your animal, your risk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

Actually, I disagree.

You have a picture of ONE lizard who was so stupid it felt a need to eat sand.

I have experience with HUNDREDS who WERE smart enough to NOT eat sand.

Hmmmmm, one and hundreds......

Yeah, enough said.

---

whoa, i didnt know we could tell whose leos are smarter than others, haha

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by atp151415

whoa, i didnt know we could tell whose leos are smarter than others, haha

---

point well made!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AshleyB

point well made!

---

i disagree that was not a point well made.

I have been keeping and breeding leopards for 10 years and never lost a single one to impaction. Your very strong opinions go against my personal observations, so I am going to have to respectfully disagree with your preconceived notions, and say we'll have to leave it at that.

Most impactions occur for two reason.....the lizard swallows something larger than it can pass (i.e. a small pebble) or the lizard is not hydrated enough to pass the items.

A properly hydrated lizard can eat sand, dirt, clay.....and it will all just pass through the system.

A dehydrated lizard will eat sand, dirt or clay and have it turn into a brick in their gut. They eat sand, their mouth and throat moisten the sand, and their intestines suck the moisture out in an attempt to rehydrate the animal. It is like a brick manufacturing process inside the animal when they eat soil substrate while dehydrated. No wonder the animals die.

Young lizards are more prone to impaction because they are more prone to dehydration. I think the substrate plays a small part of the issue, but the quality of care the animal receives plays a bigger role.

If you do not have the skill to care for the animal while on a soil substrate....use something that is safe for YOU to use and try not to critize others that know what they are doing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beardedragon

So your saying that as long as only a couple die its perfectly fine ?? To me thats not being a good owner if you think that way.What if your favorite gecko is the one to do it?:rolleyes: Sand harbors bacteria like a sponge and is a pain to clean, I just do not see why people use it? Impaction happens over time, each little grain on their food slowly adds up, ive seen it plenty of times in leos and beardies. Now, if your happy that only a few LOVED pets are dieing from sand and as long as a few hundreds are doing fine, then so be it.

---

I'm saying that your lack of intellectual obsevation is evident. In abundance.

Sand does NOT harbor bacteria. It is non-organic. It is dead. I cannot support bacteria if it is dry. If you keep it wet, then, and only then, can bacteria that are found in reptiles and are detrimental to them, be found.

You go right ahead and love your lizard just as much as you want. I won't fault you for it, it's your choice. I'll feel as I do about mine regardless of how you feel.

If one dies of impaction, it was NOT meant to pass on its genes. Not every single one of every single animal is meant to survive and reproduce. We step in and change up Nature's plan. Cool. You do whatever you need to in order for you to feel good about yourself.

How about you give me the same option without your getting your backhairs all up over it?

You've shown how you feel, proven that you will try to fool us with data that is NOT even pertinant to the discussion at hand, and that you anthropomorphise just a tad more than I do.

Give your lizard all the hugs and kisses you want. I will continue to treat mine like the lizards they are. My oldest will turn 16 this summer. I MUST be doing something wrong, eh?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daniel1983

Most impactions occur for two reason.....the lizard swallows something larger than it can pass (i.e. a small pebble) or the lizard is not hydrated enough to pass the items.

A properly hydrated lizard can eat sand, dirt, clay.....and it will all just pass through the system.

A dehydrated lizard will eat sand, dirt or clay and have it turn into a brick in their gut. They eat sand, their mouth and throat moisten the sand, and their intestines suck the moisture out in an attempt to rehydrate the animal. It is like a brick manufacturing process inside the animal when they eat soil substrate while dehydrated. No wonder the animals die.

Young lizards are more prone to impaction because they are more prone to dehydration. I think the substrate plays a small part of the issue, but the quality of care the animal receives plays a bigger role.

If you do not have the skill to care for the animal while on a soil substrate....use something that is safe for YOU to use and try not to critize others that know what they are doing.

---

I agree, but I want to add this to that: a huge part that plays in impaction is a kink in their digestive track that straitens out as they grow;) The kink makes them alot more prone to getting impacted.

And again, it's not the problem with using FINE SIFTED PLAYSAND from Home Depot.. It's a BIG problem using Calci-Sand. They will eat it to obtain the minerals from it, and in turn WILL get impacted with it.

Pet stores keep their Leos on the Calci-Sand because that is what the store management tells them to do. They don't have any other choice.. My Petsmart keeps them on carpet until they are adults.

Juvenile leos don't have much body fat, body fat is what holds fluids and hydrates the body. Therefore, they are much more prone to dehydration than adult animals, who carry alot more fat in their bodies. Less fat equals less extra water carried.

If you're going to use sand, GO TO HOME DEPOT and get PLAYSAND... It is at least a safer option and the Leo won't be as inclined to eat it.

Prevention is the much better solution. I would rather you provide the correct environment now instead of the gecko paying for it later when you have to take her to the vet for them to perform surgery, or when she dies of sepsis because her intestines are so blocked up with Calci-Sand, the blood flow is cut off. I would hope that as an RVT I wouldn't tell you the wrong thing.

Pet store employees are employed at the store because they want to make money. The pet store also wants the employees to sell items(even if they are heat rocks and CalciSand) because it makes the store money. They may think it is ok to keep the lizards and other animals on the CalciSand because it's all they've been told. Pet store employees generally don't get paid enough to do any research, and they think that if the store provides it, it must be safe, right?

Prevention.. Do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daniel1983

If you do not have the skill to care for the animal while on a soil substrate....use something that is safe for YOU to use and try not to critize others that know what they are doing.

---

This has nothing to do with my "lack" of skill, I have had beardeds housed on sand and while I had no problems doing it we certainly wouldnt do it again because it isnt the "Safest". The owner of the leo in question just got her very first reptile (the leo) when she got it about a week ago, there couldnt be less "lack of skill" then that (not meaning it offensive Desiree at all, its purely to make a point) I on the other hand have had reptiles of different species for well over 10yrs, my fiance much longer then that. We know whats safest for our animal and thats what we choose to use. Its not critizing, its disagreeing with putting an animal in harms way over "looks" If you can show me evidence that housing a hatchling on sand is a good idea I would happily step off, and evidence isnt "well i didnt have any animals die because of it" im talking real evidence.

Thank you Becky for your comment, i agree with you. It is all about prevention (preventing an issue by safe guarding the animal from possible hazards)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AshleyB

The owner of the leo in question just got her very first reptile (the leo) when she got it about a week ago, there couldnt be less "lack of skill" then that (not meaning it offensive Desiree at all, its purely to make a point)

---

Ashley do you remember when you got your first Bearded Dragon last October? You had just about as much experience as she does, with a more high maintenance animal to take on.

I find dichotomy in your statements and actions. It's ok for you to buy a beardie with little or zero experience, yet you are in no simple terms telling this girl Desiree that she isn't experienced enough to make decisions for her own animal? She seems to be doing just as much research as you did. :rolleyes:

It's been made very clear that babies don't do well on sand, but neither do your leos look like babies to me. They look like juveniles, almost adult size. I could be wrong, I'm just assuming that they were all the same size as yours.

It's also been thoroughly agreed that Calci sand is NOT the way to house any lizard for reasons already made.

I didn't read where Desiree said she bought calci sand... but I could be overlooking that.

I'm sorry I may have missed something. I thought it was all about a healthy happy reptile. There are many ways to go about that, and just because you disagree with one of the ways that doesn't make it any less viable. Daniel justified what he said very well, and I agree, it all comes down to supporting the health of the animal, because after all, they aren't on tile or some other completely barren substrate in the wild. Like he said go with what you're comfortable with.

If I had lost animals from using sand I'm sure I would have switched over and maybe been as adamant as you are, but I haven't. Go with what you know, give your opinion, but don't bash something just because it scares you. I wouldn't suggest to use sand to someone who is not comfortable with it, but as long as you maintain the environment and health of the animal there should be no problem. There are at least 3 people active on this thread who have had successes using sand for many years on end, therefore sand can't be the worst thing ever.

And just in case you need some reminding (and maybe give others a little insight)

10-31-07
Becky tells you to not keep your baby beardies on sand.
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...highlight=sand

11-01-07
Becky tells you again you probably shouldnt keep them on the sand as babies.
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...highlight=sand

11-02-07
After a scare, you finally get rid of the sand.
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...highlight=sand

Yes, not a long period of time, but you most likely would have kept the sand unless this happened, I bet ya ;)

Advice is just advice, not an order.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beardedragon

I agree, but I want to add this to that: a huge part that plays in impaction is a kink in their digestive track that straitens out as they grow;) The kink makes them alot more prone to getting impacted.

---

I've never heard of this "kink" in the digestive tract of juvenile leos. Can you provide some source information on this?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

I've never heard of this "kink" in the digestive tract of juvenile leos. Can you provide some source information on this?

---

The poster was not directing his posts to a leo;) Beardies( he clearly says lizards, sorry that I did not make that clearer. as I said is was just adding that in) have a kink in their DT that straitens out over time, but leos have TINY DTs that can not handle sand if they take a scoop of it in.

Connie, your absolutly right but when you know better you do better, Beckys comments were right on and I now (that i know better, through experience call it what you want) dont want anything bad to happen, and at the time when the beardeds were babies i thought it would be more work then what it was worth to use tile/papertowels but i know better which is why im trying to aid in directing her away from sand... her using loose substrate worries me. At the time I was doing it for looks also, much like Desiree is. I agree you have to start somewhere when it comes to anything (cameras, animals, kids, exc) I was coming back with my comment of her being new to reptiles to make a point to the PP.

Fact of the matter is desiree is a family member and of course I wouldnt want anything to happen to her or her pets.. I also know her children would be very upset if they lost their gecko. I dont feel as though im being bossy about it, I really in the bottom of my heart want nothing but the best for her animal. For the record, these leos are young (7g) and NO WHERE NEAR adult size. I wouldnt even consider them juvies as my adults are 50+g.

And that's sort of my point. Your comments are saying; housing any lizard on sand is a death warrant. Even in the face of more experienced people giving their side of the story.

Perhaps, it isn't a death warrant to house on sand. Perhaps the level of threat is higher in mind than it is in actuality.

Both sides have excellent points, and we can want something for others as hard as we want, but ultimately that person will make up their own mind.

As Daniel has said (and I thank him fully for this) there are no definitives in reptile keeping.

We can minimize the risk in other ways. Feeding in large ceramic dishes, using half tile half sand, physically removing the animal from the cage...

If the animal still insists on eating sand, like Wes has said, then yes, perhaps they should be removed from the gene pool. That's nature, nature is not compassionate.

Humans are smart, there is more than one way to minimize a risk, and more than one way to house an animal successfully.

EDIT:
Oh, and by the way. I am NOT saying you need to stop being an advocate for your point of view and stance. I am hoping though that you will keep it as that. A point of view and opinion on one way that works. :gj:

good post Connie :gj: great points. there are certainly two sides to situations such as this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AshleyB

Its not critizing, its disagreeing with putting an animal in harms way over "looks"

---

So I willing put my animals in harms way because I keep them on sand?

That comment really strikes a nerve.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AshleyB

This has nothing to do with my "lack" of skill, I have had beardeds housed on sand and while I had no problems doing it we certainly wouldnt do it again because it isnt the "Safest".

---

It has everything to do with lack of skill. You are doing what is 'Safest' for YOU because in YOUR care the reptile will not do well with YOUR choice of substrate. The animals actually live on soil in the wild...no tiles, no newspaper, no reptile carpet....and they seem to do extreamly well too. Just because you or someone else chose an inappropriate soil to keep an animal on without success does not make everything similar unsafe to use.

And just wondering.....

How many types of sand have you used to say that sands are not safe? Sand is a very broad classification, why not be specific about the types you and the others used? Fine grain sand or course grain? Manufactured or natural? Spherical or rough grain shape? Little details are very important when keeping reptiles please be specific.

Also, any part of the captive environment can become harmful if the reptile's needs are not met. It is not always the 'substrate's fault'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AshleyB

The owner of the leo in question just got her very first reptile (the leo) when she got it about a week ago, there couldnt be less "lack of skill" then that

---

Inexperienced keepers should play it safe. I never said otherwise. However, if they always play it safe....they never gain experience. They simply keep reptiles for years using 'safe' methods and distribute information like "there is no reason under the sun to ever, EVER use sand"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AshleyB

We know whats safest for our animal and thats what we choose to use.

---

That is great. Do what is best for you and your animals. Don't tell me I do not care for my reptiles' health or 'safety' because it doesn't fit with your opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AshleyB

If you can show me evidence that housing a hatchling on sand is a good idea I would happily step off, and evidence isnt "well i didnt have any animals die because of it" im talking real evidence.

---

How is successfully keeping an animal using a particular method not evidence? Please explain.

Applying your way of thinking....all I have to say is...

I have seen pictures of lizards cramming themselves under tiles inside the enclosure only to end up smashing themselves beneath it. People that use tiles as a substrate are only putting their animals in harms way since tiles should never be used. However if you can show me evidence that housing lizards with tiles in the enclosure is a good idea I would happily step off, and evidence isnt "well i didnt have any animals die because of it" im talking real evidence.

LMAO...where is your evidence?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

I've never heard of this "kink" in the digestive tract of juvenile leos. Can you provide some source information on this?

---

I have never heard this kink either. I would love to see the source info too.

Wow Daniel, where to start.

I didnt suggest that you werent taking care of your animals by housing them on sand, if you want to go with experience, you have much more experience with keeping them on sand, so according to you its safest. Isnt there still the risk that someday you could have an issue with impaction? I have yet to have an issue with housing my leos on sand because i choose not to use sand, for me its easier and more sanitary to use a peice of tile. In the past I personally have used playsand (as suggested by members) from home depot. Im sure I have a macro picture of the sand if you so wish to see it. Desiree has not yet posted the type of sand she is currently using, i do know for a fact however that Ben's where she got the sand does not supply/carry play sand.

I would still like to know where there is evidence that its good/healthy to use sand over tile/newspaper/exc.. i personally (meaning me) dont understand why you would house on sand if there is a risk of injury. I understand your comment of it not always being the substrates fault but why add insult to injury. I would rather know for a fact it has nothing to do with my choice of substrate. I do not have evidence that housing any reptiles on papertowel, tile, exc is the best but i do know it takes away the risk of ingesting their substrate because there is no substrate to ingest.

Because I dont house on sand that makes me an inexperienced herp keeper? If that was the truth then every single breeder/hobbiest that houses all their reptiles on paper towels inexperienced, im sure there are dozens of those type of people who breed high numbers of animals, keep hundreds of resident reptiles does that make them inexperienced just because of their substrate choice? for some reason i disagree with that statement.

Im not saying you dont take care of your animals, everyone takes care of their animals when their basic needs are kept up. I will agree to disagree with your choice of substrate vs my choice of substrate. I would love to house my geckos on sand, i think it would be cute to see little foot prints in the sand but not at the risk of them ingesting it, but thats me what you do is totally up to you, your animal your choice just as i said previously in this thread, it doesnt make it right or wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AshleyB

you have much more experience with keeping them on sand, so according to you its safest

---

I never said anything was 'safest'... I simply said sand is not alway dangerous. EVERY substate has risks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AshleyB

I have yet to have an issue with housing my leos on sand because i choose not to use sand, for me its easier and more sanitary to use a peice of tile.

---

Then your methods are for PERSONAL reasons. You kept leos on sand without issue, but you chose to house differently because something was easier for you. So it really has nothing to do with sand being functional substrate? I know keepers that use sand for 'ease of cleaning' because they can sift out feces and only do full substrate changes as needed. That does not make your methods wrong......just a different way of doing things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AshleyB

I do not have evidence that housing any reptiles on papertowel, tile, exc is the best but i do know it takes away the risk of ingesting their substrate because there is no substrate to ingest.

---

Again this focus on what is 'best' or 'safest'. Can't substrates be equal?

I ask again to show me evidence that there is no risk with using tiles. I have given you an honest example of a problem known to cause issues while keeping tiles in enclosures with lizards. Animals get under them and get crushed.

ALL SUBSTRATES have certain risks with them. With knowledge, a keeper can limit that risk.

A manufactured sand with sharp edges has a higher chance of causing an impaction than a spherical midsized grain sand. A lizard kept hydrated has less of a chance of becoming impacted than a dehydrated animal.

A keeper can successfully house a lizard on sand if properly chosen. There are alot of sands out there however. SAND is not a bad substrate.....specific types of sand are bad substrates.

Saying sand is bad because a specific brand of manufactured sand has caused impactions...is like saying....Ball pythons are dangerous because some other pythons can grow to 15 feet in length.

Get the point I am trying to make?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AshleyB

Because I dont house on sand that makes me an inexperienced herp keeper?

---

No. Sticking to a 'safe' method, does not allow someone to expand upon their knowledge of how different substrates function. Therefore, the keeper lacks experience with substrates not previously declared 'safe' by others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AshleyB

If that was the truth then every single breeder/hobbiest that houses all their reptiles on paper towels inexperienced, im sure there are dozens of those type of people who breed high numbers of animals, keep hundreds of resident reptiles does that make them inexperienced just because of their substrate choice?.

---

Breeders use what they use because breeding is the goal.....it deals more with objectives. Low maintenance, high productivity = profit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AshleyB

i think it would be cute to see little foot prints in the sand but not at the risk of them ingesting it, but thats me what you do is totally up to you, your animal your choice just as i said previously in this thread.

---

I keep my lizards on soil because it is 'natural' compared to other stuff. It has nothing to do with appearance. I pick a soil that can be ingested without issue and I keep my animals hydrated. No problems with ingesting the substrate....I see them eat it all the time when going after insects. No problems.

Problems occur when people chose a bad type of sand or do not care for their animals properly. If the keeper makes the right choices there should be no problems. That is the issue. All sands are not health risks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beardedragon

The poster was not directing his posts to a leo;) Beardies( he clearly says lizards, sorry that I did not make that clearer. as I said is was just adding that in) have a kink in their DT that straitens out over time, but leos have TINY DTs that can not handle sand if they take a scoop of it in.

---

bd, I think your south end is spouting without consulting your north end.

YOU brought up this mysterious neverbeforeheardof kink. Now, either tell us more about it or admit that you made it up to prove a point; sort of like the one where you tried to mislead readers with the necropsy on the gecko kept on Calcisand and NOT on real sand.

If you don't have facts, if you can't back up what you say, perhaps silence should be an option you do more than ignore.

well, arguing aside, i keep my leos on calci-sand. i watch them when they feed and have never had an issue... like D says, every substrate has some inherant risks.

I have not kept leos on sand, i have kept bearded dragons on sand. I had an issue when my bearded was young (turned out to be unrelated to substrate choice and was purely stressed animal) and took the sand away until it was an adult at which time i returned it and because we fed out of deep dishes we never had a problem with her ingesting the sand (we used play sand btw, never used other types/brands).

My leos have only had either paper towels or tile. Your right, every substrate has a risk although I dont see a 50gram leo lifting a 18x18 tile nor do i see them getting stuck between tiles as we have only one and it is snug to the glass (a worm cant even get between it) but i suppose I see your point on other substrates and if we had a different size enclosure. To me, it does have to do with its ability to function as a safe choice of substrate.

I do see your point (bp's and broad classifications of python) if sand works for you and it works for other members then great :gj: I just PERSONALLY wont use it for our leos because I dont like the risk, for my leos. Perhaps I dont desire to have that "experience" under my belt, to each his own. I would prefer to not be an "experienced" substrate user if that is how I would be classified. I do see how it could be used, I understand many different types of substrates but for me using tile is best for what I use it for.

Thank you for your educated input, im sure it will be of help to many members. You certainly made this an interesting debate. :gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

bd, I think your south end is spouting without consulting your north end.

YOU brought up this mysterious neverbeforeheardof kink. Now, either tell us more about it or admit that you made it up to prove a point; sort of like the one where you tried to mislead readers with the necropsy on the gecko kept on Calcisand and NOT on real sand.

If you don't have facts, if you can't back up what you say, perhaps silence should be an option you do more than ignore.

---

http://www.beardeddragon.org/bjive/v...c.php?p=620058
Second post down

Now go to Google, and type in Kink in the digestive track of Bearded dragons if you want to know more;) Not that hard:rolleyes:

The calci sand impaction link was just an example. If you would like to see more impaction in leos go to google as well.

EDIT: apart from you being rude, did you not see that I was adding on the FACT to his information, I was not going into detail and thought people would also like to know. I love how you call me out and say im making things up when you could have saved yourself the time and looked it up first to see if it was true or not?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beardedragon

http://www.beardeddragon.org/bjive/v...c.php?p=620058
Second post down

Now go to Google, and type in Kink in the digestive track of Bearded dragons if you want to know more;) Not that hard:rolleyes:

The calci sand impaction link was just an example. If you would like to see more impaction in leos go to google as well.

EDIT: apart from you being rude, did you not see that I was adding on the FACT to his information, I was not going into detail and thought people would also like to know. I love how you call me out and say im making things up when you could have saved yourself the time and looked it up first to see if it was true or not?

---

Isn't taking the word of some anonymous poster sort of like saying you heard from this guy at a bar......

That isn't PROOF that there is a kink. YOU brought up kinks. I have NEVER heard any such thing. I admit though, I've only been keeping and breeding, though not breeding for the last 4 years or so, beardies since 89 or 90.

I stand by my earlier statement. Either provide PROOF or consider silence.

Show me a study, a necropsy, someone other than some nameless person, who has CONCRETE evidence of this so called "kink" and then I'll believe you.

Until then, you're spouting nonsense.