ASFR's and weight gain

i was talking to a herp buddy about ASFR's and we both came to the conclusion that bp's gain more weight on asfr's than with other rodents,even when the asfr's are smaller than rats or mice.

i'm interested to hear your views on this.have fun !

I havent documented anything, but I did notice that the female that has been eating ASFs since feb had a huge growth spurt and passed up 2 other females that were eating rats weighing about 25% more than the ASFs. I didnt record any data besides monthly weight and type of food offered. I could start recording the weight/type of the food offered just to see if there is any relationship...

Ok so your study is based on how many animals and over what length of time?

Were all the animals used for the study around the same weight when the study first started?

Were the prey size the same?

How much weight did the group on ASF gained compared to the group on regular rats over the same time period?

What are the specific numbers?

You can’t make such a claim without providing data to back it up!

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Ok so your study is based on how many animals and over what length of time?

Were all the animals used for the study around the same weight when the study first started?

Were the prey size the same?

How much weight did the group on ASF gained compared to the group on regular rats over the same time period?

What are the specific numbers?

You can’t make such a claim without providing data to back it up!

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Who was that directed at? If it was to me, I was just saying that I could start taking down data and that I have nothing that would be considered conclusive. I am just saying it is a possibility based on casual observations.

I think she was talking to the other person. And I agree with her, without any backup data it would be like me saying that bps grow 20x faster on mice if I had one on mice that grew 20x faster then another on rats!

I interpreted both of the first 2 posts of this thread as very casual observances, not trying to make claims of absolute fact. The first person asked for more input and the second very specifically said not much data was recorded, but they could start recording more data to see IF there is a relationship. So I'm a little baffled at the tone that seems to be in Deborah's post.

And Beardedragon, the first post to me reads nothing like your theoretical claim. To me, the first post sounds more like "hey I was chatting with a buddy and this is what we think, what do you all think?"

I will agree absolutely that a more scientific study would have to be done before any claims should be made. I just don't see that any were made. :confuzd:

Ooo Interesting. I think that's something worth looking into. :)

I noticed that when I switched my animals over to my own feeder rats, they just seemed to pack on the weight and quickly. It was just an observation on my part, no evidence really, but so far I just attributed it all to growth spurts.

Same thing sort of. lol :P

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Originally Posted by kc261

I interpreted both of the first 2 posts of this thread as very casual observances, not trying to make claims of absolute fact. The first person asked for more input and the second very specifically said not much data was recorded, but they could start recording more data to see IF there is a relationship. So I'm a little baffled at the tone that seems to be in Deborah's post.

And Beardedragon, the first post to me reads nothing like your theoretical claim. To me, the first post sounds more like "hey I was chatting with a buddy and this is what we think, what do you all think?"

I will agree absolutely that a more scientific study would have to be done before any claims should be made. I just don't see that any were made. :confuzd:

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Im just really interested in the claim, thats all:) If it is true i'll be finding me some ASFS!

Asf's have a completely different kind of hair. The individual hair looks to be thinner then rats (making it much softer) , but overall the number of hairs seems to be much thicker. They seem to be much higher strung then rats or mice. Their build, especialy the females after giving birth is very muscular and healthy. My females are all having back to back to back to back to back litters, and after every single litter, they are a little bigger, a little fatter, and overall a little more healthy looking. They don't sneeze like my rats used to do... but they are constantly cleaning themselves. The females are I believe the only ones in the rodent family that have fully functional prostate glands.

What does this all mean? who knows. I would think though that they probably have a completely different nutritional makeup then rats or mice. Obviously just the fact that females have a prostate tells me that their fat, protein, ect is going to be different then a normal female rat, who does not have a prostate.

I saw somewhere the average nutritional breakdown of a rat... it showed fat grams, protein grams ect. 1.) I wonder how accurate that chart is. 2) can they make a similar chart for ASF's?


mike

this study would have to be done from birth with same sex animals all from the same clutch.

so you would need 2 clutchs one for rats and one for ASF...

it would also be good if you can have a clutch that would eat both to see the diffrence.

people that say " i switched my ONE snake over" i dont really listen to because that animal could have been due for a growth spurt.

don't let this thread die! How can we get more info on this?


Another interesting note... since I have switched to ASF's, I have found that my snakes poop less often, and when they do, they are perfect poops. No scientific data here... just an observation. I am guessing it is because I raised the asf's myself, and they are fed correctly... but maybe it is something else???

As far as a study goes would it be possible to get some somewhat more accurate data using twins vs clutches. Would that not be the more micro way of getting a basic idea vs waiting years and years on a larger study, still nothing would be set in stone but it would give a more basic idea of whether this hypothesis has any basis. Thinking it would take some of the genetic variences out of the equation of which snake is going to be large and which one isn't. And the only reason I suggest twins is that half of my 07 babies are rather large and some just dont seem to be getting anywhere in a hurry and they are all fed equal sized rat pups, the same day from the same litter.

I personally have several of my smaller 06 females on asf only diets just to see if they catch up per se to the larger 06 females.

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Originally Posted by mcavana

Their build, especialy the females after giving birth is very muscular and healthy. My females are all having back to back to back to back to back litters, and after every single litter, they are a little bigger, a little fatter, and overall a little more healthy looking.


mike

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You know I've noted that too Mike. Every single one of my female ASF's, even with back to back breeding, nursing one litter whilst carrying another - grows significantly bigger after each litter. The size difference from first pregnancy to first weaning is well...pretty impressive and immediate.

My gut instinct is that it's two things at work, one is hormonal, the other is about colony dynamics and dominance. From what I've seen the females run the place. One female is the dominant animal and generally the most prolific breeder or the first female to have a litter in the group. The other females rank below her and the male below them. She runs the place, eats first, disciplines the other females and the lone adult male. If she's in a "mood", every ASF is hyper aware of her.

Something in the hormones of birthing seem to push an immediate size growth in these females. Perhaps it's nature's way of acknowledging this is good breeding female and making sure she can handle the pressures physically of back to back birthings. The female dominance allows them to access food first so that adds to the mix to allow them to stay big and hardy despite the rigors of constant production of offspring. Their colony system where the male, older offspring and other females assist in communal infant care would only help these females to stay in top shape for their vital role in the group.

As far as how this affects our snakes, I cannot say having not done any sort of study on it. I will say our Danu, a snake taken in as a gravid WC who had not eaten in the year following her laying of eggs has gone from 800 grams to almost back to full health very quickly on a diet of ASF's. It does seem to be faster than Saoirse, another WC rescue adult, gained on regular rats (she's been switched to ASF's too now and is loving them) but that's just too small a sampling to say anything with any certainty.

I'm not sure twins would be the best subjects for a study. They tend to start out very small so the data might not even translate to more BPs. Also they are relatively few and far between. It would probably be quicker and easier to get a reasonably large amount of data on non-twin BPs, than it would be to get enough data from twin BPs to count for anything.

An interesting thought on this... on a corn snake forum I've read where people seem pretty convinced that slitting the skin of the prey before feeding causes the snake to gain weight faster. One person even did a small but pretty convincing study on it. Now, a few years later, some of the same people still believe that it causes faster growth, but are beginning to wonder if the growth is TOO FAST to be healthy. I could dig up some links if anyone is interested.

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Originally Posted by mcavana

don't let this thread die! How can we get more info on this?


Another interesting note... since I have switched to ASF's, I have found that my snakes poop less often, and when they do, they are perfect poops. No scientific data here... just an observation. I am guessing it is because I raised the asf's myself, and they are fed correctly... but maybe it is something else???

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Less poop = more retained weight, perhaps we are on to something.

I thought my BPs who were on ASFs were growing at the same rate (or a little quicker) than my frozen rat feeders...until I took a closer look at my feeding charts only to realize that I was actually feeding them more often than the frozen rat feeders due to them being readily available. (As you know they multiply fairly well!)

Having said that, my 2007 het. toffee male and female that are on ASFs and are both over 800 grams (Female is 900 grams) but a much leaner 800-900 grams than my 2007 frozen rat eaters. They're not as "soft" and feel allot harder.

Maybe this could somehow be attributed to the quality of the meat?

Denis
DenJenn Reptiles
www.pythonregius.ca

i've noticed that also.i have a 07 3.4 group that i hatched out and have been fed ASF's and they are very firm to the touch,even though this clutch was hard to get going they are between 550 - 750 grams.

other clutches from the same time on rats/mice seem softer and weight a bit less.interesting obersevations.have fun!