ASF Price gouging?

Since I decided to buy a trio of ASF's, I have been thinking more and more about why they cost 5 bucks a piece. When they are sold, they are only the size of a large mouse, which at a show, which is where the ASF's would be from, are no more than 75 cents. In addition to this, the ASF's dont cost nearly as much to keep and cause a lot less hassle in the breeding process. I say this because they eat half as much, drink a third as much, are extremely prolific and actually have protective fathers, and they dont smell. As far as I can tell, there is really not much work to an ASF colony, other than moving around tons of weanlings as they are reproducing so much. So why is it that a lets say 25 g ASF is 5 dollars, whereas a 25 g adult mouse is 50-75 cents. It makes no sense to me, they should be the same price, if not cheaper. I can understand a markup because of the lack of smell really being a selling point, but at what point does that become gouging? I think 5 dollars a piece is gouging, especially when they are not at all suitable to be breeder/feeders and pets.

Just my 2 cents. Let me know what you all think.

In GA it is nearly impossibly to even find ASFs. there are billions of mice out there, and you can find them in almost every pet store in America. With asfs you have to go to a show or see if anyone local has any, which can be a huge hassle/strain. Its pretty much because they are not commonly available, and people will pay 5$ for one because they might not have the chance to get them again.

:2cent:

It wasn't all that long ago that they were selling for $35-$50 EACH! While to those of us who talk about them a lot and are aware of them, they may seem fairly common now...they are still a relatively rare and hard-to-get rodent. There are literally millions and millions of mice out there to buy....and maybe only a few hundred thousand ASF's.

And the price is driven by what the market will bear. If people are willing to spend $5 on a rodent, then why not ask for $5?

Your joking right?

Here a feeder rat costs $5. I could easily charge a lot more if I was selling ASF. They aren't readily available, they do well with non feeding snakes, and dont get too large for most animals.

You have to think about it from a business perspective.

Also, not many people have them, I was lucky to get my trio after months of looking and waiting.

Advertise the benefits of "natural" prey for ball pythons, often bringing picky eaters around to eating consistently.
Advertise the benefits that they never grow too large for most BP's. Nor are they too small.

They have very little smell for their size compared to other rodents.

Sell only males, to prevent people from just breeding their own. Keeping an edge on the local market.

All good ways to charge more than $5 ea.

I guess the rarity would be a profit upper, but at the same time, I live in the middle of no where (town of 2000 people), and I have found 3 people/companies that breed their own ASF's within driving distance. They are not THAT rare. And while yes, a large+ feeder rat is 5 dollars here too, but that is much bigger than a 5 dollar ASF.

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Originally Posted by ThyTempest

I guess the rarity would be a profit upper, but at the same time, I live in the middle of no where (town of 2000 people), and I have found 3 people/companies that breed their own ASF's within driving distance. They are not THAT rare. And while yes, a large+ feeder rat is 5 dollars here too, but that is much bigger than a 5 dollar ASF.

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Your lucky that you live that close to some breeders. You live near lansing-detroit, where there are simply more people.

Up here... I would be most likely one of the few with ASF in mid-michigan. A few in Flint, and at least one more on the west side of the state...

Then from there I think it goes up to Tim Hurkman in Northern Michigan.

They are few and far between. Luckily, we have some big names here and just over the border to spur on some ASF breeding operations.

Oh, and to the price of a rat. $5 is for any size rat in my area. Yea... they cost that much around here. Petsmart doesnt sell live feeders.... Little shops charge an arm and a leg for a feeder rat or mouse.

It's absolutely ridiculous. A PINKY mouse cost me 1.75 at one shop in town that actually had some.

Petstore prices here (for the few that do have live feeders)
Mice range from $1.99 for a pink to $4.99 for an adult
Rats range from $2.99 for a pink to $8.99 for an adult
The ONE place that gets ASF's charges $35.99 EACH!

If your snake prefers ASF's and will take f/t, give American Rodent Supply a call. They carry frozen ASF's at very good prices and shipping is free to certain areas.

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Originally Posted by SPJ

Petstore prices here (for the few that do have live feeders)
Mice range from $1.99 for a pink to $4.99 for an adult
Rats range from $2.99 for a pink to $8.99 for an adult
The ONE place that gets ASF's charges $35.99 EACH!

If your snake prefers ASF's and will take f/t, give American Rodent Supply a call. They carry frozen ASF's at very good prices and shipping is free to certain areas.

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That's what I'm talking about. Every petstore within an hour drive of me rarely have enough feeders, and when they do they charge a lot. (for a crappy feeder too) :rage:

I paid $10 per female, $5 per male and had to drive 3 hours into another state to get them.

It's called supply and demand, there is a limited supply yet a high demand. If you happen to be lucky enough to have a breeder near by, then I envy you.

I live between Battle Creek and Jackson. The three I am talking about are a pet supplier in Toledo, via the Taylor show. And two people near Kalamazo via that show(sometimes), though I think one comes down from GR.

And to SPJ, an adult mouse at a petstore here is up to about 2 dollars. I am getting the ones i am feeding now from Pruess Pet's in Lansing. It is a more upscale exotic petstore that takes better care of everything, and their mice are only a dollar fifty. From a show, you can get adult mice for under a dollar, usually less than 75 cents. Not sure about show rat pricing, but I would bet it is way under pet store prices.

I guess the point I am getting at, is ASF's should not be that expensive. I am getting a trio and I will probably end up with way more than I need, so I will euthanize and freeze, or sell live if I can find someone willing to pick them up, and I am not going to charge 5 dollars.

Maybe what I consider a lot of driving is a lot more than everyone else. You say you had to drive three hours, I am having to drive at least 2, probably 2 and a half with traffic, to get to the Taylor show. I dont see this as a lot, being from a small town I accept that even a grocery run is 25 minutes to the store one way. That said, 2+ hours driving is no biggy for me. However, I will say that the gas for a 2+ hour drive sucks.

Before I started buying from Pruess, I got feeders at Pet Supplies Plus is jackson. They are small feeders, but descent quality, no mites or ticks, etc. They are not on the best diet, but in all honesty, they arent on the best diet with me yet either. They had probably 40 feeders @ 2 dollars each. Pruess breeds their own, and while I dont know how many mice they have on hand at a given time, I would be willing to bet a hundred or more live, and several hundred frozen.

Hmmm thats funny I give mine away. :D

I would probably give mine away too once I am established, but to start, I dont see charging the same as a mouse to be a bad thing. It helps cover my start-up costs of hardware cloth, tubs, food, etc.

Also, not sure what is meant by your location, but if it is MI, I would gladly pay you for your ASF's, especially if you are not charging 5 dollars a piece.

And my point is that you are LUCKY to live down state near those breeders. I had to drive 3 hours south one way to get my trio. I paid more than 5$ for them, and I aint crying about it. I was thankful they were so cheap!

If you want to start breeding them, then more power to you. Good job for helping spread these animals, but my point is don't hate on people because they do charge $12 ea. It is very hard for many people to get ASF, so the price can be justified.

For real, rats are hard enough to come by as it is, much less some ASF.

And I only live 2 hours north of you. It's more of a city by city thing. You can't change the prices for ASF up here if you only charge a buck each down there.

For one, the cost in gas isn't worth it, nor the time it takes to get them.

As much as mcavana touts they dont eat very much, well they eat just as much as a small rat. They drink that much in water too from what I can tell. (Maybe I just have piggy ASF? LOL) Cost of housing, food and water all come into play when selling any feeder. As well with the availability and rarity.

So, I hope you understand how lucky you are. Not everyone lives next door to breeders. ;)

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Hmmm thats funny I give mine away. :D

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I do too...Out of all my snakes I only have 1 BP and 1 JCP that are hooked on them...I give my excess to my buddy - Around 20 a month...
BT

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Originally Posted by ThyTempest

I would probably give mine away too once I am established, but to start, I dont see charging the same as a mouse to be a bad thing. It helps cover my start-up costs of hardware cloth, tubs, food, etc.

Also, not sure what is meant by your location, but if it is MI, I would gladly pay you for your ASF's, especially if you are not charging 5 dollars a piece.

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M I crooked letter crooked letter I crooked letter crooked letter I hump back hump back I

Mississippi.. LOL

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Originally Posted by BT41042

I do too...Out of all my snakes I only have 1 BP and 1 JCP that are hooked on them...I give my excess to my buddy - Around 20 a month...
BT

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I got them to get two of mine started back and now I got to rotate them in with mice just to keep from getting over run. :gj:

Maybe I am being a douchebag about all of this, but I am not in any better location than you. You say you drive 3 hours south, I drive nearly three hours east. I may be lucky with the petstores, especially in Lansing, but even that is an hour north for me, at least until I go back to school in the fall.

Sorry if I offended anyone, it just seems like this topic never comes up, but apparently it is more of a hot button issue than I expected.

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Originally Posted by ThyTempest

Maybe I am being a douchebag about all of this, but I am not in any better location than you. You say you drive 3 hours south, I drive nearly three hours east. I may be lucky with the petstores, especially in Lansing, but even that is an hour north for me, at least until I go back to school in the fall.

Sorry if I offended anyone, it just seems like this topic never comes up, but apparently it is more of a hot button issue than I expected.

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I agree that it may be an inconvenience for you to get your starting group but the bright side is that its a one time inconvenience and not a trip you have to make every week.

LOL, I just don't want to see hatin going on towards people that do charge $5 each for an ASF.

For me personally, that's why I breed my own feeders. It's not cost effective at all to buy from down state.

Either pay $5 each to feed 15 snakes from the petstore ($75 wk!) or drive down state every month to buy bulk FT ($60 + $30 gas). Especially considering the feeder rats down state or at petshops are usually not very good quality. ;)

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Originally Posted by ThyTempest

Sorry if I offended anyone, it just seems like this topic never comes up, but apparently it is more of a hot button issue than I expected.

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I don't think anyone is offended...nor is it all that "hot" of an issue....just that most folks aren't quite seeing it from your point of view is all. Nothing wrong with that, from either side. And I don't see anything wrong with you raising your own ASF's and charging whatever you want for them. More power to ya!

Speaking of availability of ASFs, any Southern Californians found a source for ASFs? I haven't really looked much, just curious as I've been thinking of downsizing my mouse colony and mebbe trying some ASFs for miss finicky bp. =)

ASF's will only be worth $5 each until they are more common in the market. If you want to get them for $1 each then wait a year or two. It is the same as balls, how much were people paying for Pastels a couple of years ago, how much now? Supply and demand, and yeah low supply means that seller can and will charge a higher price that some people will consider gouging.

if i could find some within driving distance i would pay 5 for each for them.

ASF are hard to find which explain their price, also most people that will go in Pet store and buy ASF will be more than likely start their own breeding colony in my opinion rather than feed them off.

I paid $0.00 for my 4 ASF :banana: however I was willing to pay the only problem as stated earlier they are hard to come across in GA I tried to find some for months, I was lucky to get mine from Ed ;).

I paid $6.99 per regular rats to start my colony but when someone need future breeders I give them away for free because I know how hard it is to get a healthy colony started.

Now when it comes to feeders if I had to buy from the pet store it would cost me

$2.50 per small rats
$1.50 per mice

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Originally Posted by cassandra

Speaking of availability of ASFs, any Southern Californians found a source for ASFs? I haven't really looked much, just curious as I've been thinking of downsizing my mouse colony and mebbe trying some ASFs for miss finicky bp. =)

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Aren't they illigal in California? (If I am not mistaken someone mentioned that before)

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I paid $0.00 for my 4 ASF :banana: however I was willing to pay the only problem as stated earlier they are hard to come across in GA I tried to find some for months, I was lucky to get mine from Ed ;).

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How are the little demons. :D

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

How are the little demons. :D

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Cute and sweet as the day they got here, hopefully they'll stay sweet even after they breed! :please:

Hopefully once they start breeding I can switch my mousers BP to ASF and keep the mice colony exclusively for the colubrids.

My original ASF's came from that breeder out of Toledo via the Taylor show and we paid $5.00 per ASF and were quite happy to see them come down that much in price compared to what they were only a couple of years ago. It's because of that kind of breeder making room for them in their rodent breeding operation, seeing a market developing a couple of years back, that you can get that at that far more reasonable price today.

As far as I'm aware that particular supplier does a much larger portion of his business in mice and regular rats. If he gives X amount of floor space to breeding and housing a rodent that's not as well known, therefore, sells doesn't yet sell as much monthly volume, then it makes perfect business sense that he would have to charge a higher price. Nobody is in business to waste their time or space for anyone's convenience.

A rare sports car takes the same lot space as a family sedan. A fancy bp morph takes the same tub space as a normal. Price is driven by factors that I don't think you are perhaps taking into consideration here.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

As much as mcavana touts they dont eat very much, well they eat just as much as a small rat. They drink that much in water too from what I can tell. (Maybe I just have piggy ASF? LOL)

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Don't say that too loud... you don't want to give your little fatties a complex! :colbert:

I have done rats, and currently have lots of ASF's. There is no doubt that my ASF's eat and drink far less then the rats did. at least half as much. Small rats are the biggest pigs of all!

I think 5 dollars is a fantastic price for ASF's. A large rat is 8 bucks here. And that is the common rat that everyone (petco, petsmart, local shops) carries. So, in my opinion ASF's should be worth at least that... if not more. I honestly don't think they will ever drop below 5 bucks on average.

Mike

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Originally Posted by ThyTempest

I guess the rarity would be a profit upper, but at the same time, I live in the middle of no where (town of 2000 people), and I have found 3 people/companies that breed their own ASF's within driving distance. They are not THAT rare. And while yes, a large+ feeder rat is 5 dollars here too, but that is much bigger than a 5 dollar ASF.

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Consider yourself lucky. There are none to be had in metro Atlanta that "I" know of. I had to have mine "imported" from Mississippi last month (met Ed at the B'ham show) to get my trio (well, actually foursome 2.2).

Just last year a trio was going for $50 and up.

One thing is they take longer than mice to get up to size. I think since they need more time than mice they will prob stay at around 5 dollars.

That's exactly it. They take a lot longer to get up to fullsize compared to mice and rats.

I paid $20 a trio (and I was lucky enough to get unrelated trios, I know a lot of people are inbreeding sibs) about 6 months ago from the ONLY ASF breeder that I'm aware of in Pennsylvania.

In my opinion $5 is a deal, considering that 2 years ago it was hard to find anyone who would sell you females and when you did, the going rate was $100 for 1.2.

That's what I paid for mine plus drove 7 hours round trip to pick them up at a show. I know some of you may think that's crazy and maybe it is but I've never regretted it. They have paid for themselves many times over.

Same here Louis,I paid $300 for three trios about 2 years ago

5 bux for a feeder rat? thats cheap! around here the few stores that sell rodents charge 7.99 and 8.99 each. and its always hard to find the right sizes! which is 1 of the reasons I breed my own mice & rats.

Another reason is I love the babies!! Lots of the super cute/friendly ones stay as pets and breeders. I have a small mom & pops pet store that will buy fancy baby rats at 3 dollars each store credit. And some go to friends & family.

supply & demand.. if i wasn't breeding my own, yes i'd pay 9 bux per rat to feed my snakes. I've done it many times and would do it again if need be.

Also.. there is someone about an hour away selling ASF for 6 dollars each. i still think thats a good deal. been thinking about switching over to them but the whole aggression thing is holding me back as I said above, I love my mice n rats, they aren't just my feeders they are my pets too. I wouldn't want rats that you can't feel free to hold and snuggle :)

Over on our end of MI.. Feeder rats are 6.35. X-large mice are 1.55 last time we got them.. I am about to pick up a new trio of ASF at the next show in Taylor and those will be 2.00 a piece. Per the price sheet I got last month. Just to add in some new blood. I dont think its a bad price personally.. Mine are always larger than mice so I think they are fine as a mid range price.. And when I see some of the prices above I say I am glad I can find them for 2 bucks.

LOL, 5 bucks price gouging??? I paid $100.00 for 3 when feeder surplus first started releasing females a couple years back. The best $100 I have ever spent. I have at least 10 female ball pythons that are now proven breeders that would still be under 1000g if not for these things. I should also be hatching out some pieds this year from hets that went from eating about once every 2 months on mice (would never take a rat) to reliable weekly feeder on ASF's.

thytempest i know that you go to the show in taylor. there is a couple there selling them for

pinkie = frozen .20 live .25
fuzzy = frozen .40 live .50
pup = frozen .75 live .80
weanling = frozen 1.00 live 1.50
adult = frozen 1.50 live 2.00
lg. adult = frozen 2.25 live 3.00

they dont bring all sizes to the show every month but if you email them they will bring exactly what sizes and how many you want

http://www.dhookventures.com/PriceList6_3_08.pdf

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Originally Posted by BT41042

I do too...Out of all my snakes I only have 1 BP and 1 JCP that are hooked on them...I give my excess to my buddy - Around 20 a month...
BT

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Well, hey then....how about throwing / flying some MY way??

The teeny-tiny mice are $1.49/ea. If I buy 'em 15+ at a time, then in about 2-3 weeks, some MAY be large enough to be a good meal for my picky eaters. Luckily, I may not have to do mice for much longer for the adults that were fasting, but I still have 3 babies that will eat only live mice, and then sporadically. So I'm now looking to find a 1.3 or 2.5 to start breeding my own ASFs. Since I have ratties as both pets and food, it wouldn't be that much more to breed and feed my own.

Unfortunately around here, there aren't any ASFs. We have ONE local petstore that MIGHT be carrying them right now...but since I haven't SEEN the animals, it's hard to say. Plus the clerk called them "large fancy mice" which if they ARE ASFs, tells me the clerk doesn't have a clue.

Either way, I'm trying to track down a source/ breeder who would be willing to ship some ASFs. Becky was generous to offer mice, but I'm thinking I'd have better luck w/the ASFs.

Whatever....yeah supply and demand is a lot of it, and a lot of it is ppl willing to pay extra if it means getting a picky eater to eat regularly and thrive.

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Originally Posted by sweety314

Either way, I'm trying to track down a source/ breeder who would be willing to ship some ASFs. Becky was generous to offer mice, but I'm thinking I'd have better luck w/the ASFs..

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You can't ship live rodents. (unless you define shipping as putting them in your car and driving them somewhere!)

A couple years ago I wanted some of these rodents but was simply NOT going to pay $75/trio here in MI. I got some in a trade instead and never looked back. Today was actually my first ever reptile show that we sold at. I put my rats up for $2 each, male or female, any size and sold a grand total of 8 all day. I think folks are entitled to price their animals to get out of them what they put in. I also think there are people who "cash in" on animals when they are a commodity in an area. These rodents breed in great numbers so propagation should not be to difficult. Like my vision or not I don't think asf rats should be hard to come by or any more expensive than other rodents. People told me asf rats would not catch and that made me want to spread the word about them even more. Could I have charged $5? yes since there was no competition and it doesn't sound like anyone has sold asf in Grand Rapids, MI since they first started popping up. Would I feel right about the price...no. I didn't even cover the cost of my table let alone the drive to the show and back. I am satisfied with just sharing what I know about them with others and getting people talking about them.

Weeeeell, I had to be in Albany at the vet's on Monday, so I stopped by the local petstore.....Yeah, they ARE ASFs, but the owner SWEARS that they're mice, "b/c that's what the breeder said they were". We stood there and argued (well, okay...not really ARGUED) but debated. I wanted to make sure we were talking the same language.

I mentioned searching online, and the confusion of why they're actually RATS and NOT mice, but the owner was basically, "oh well, then the name change must have just happened this last week, because the breeder I bought these from says they're mice." J. H. C!!!:zerb::tricho::tricho:

I guess I was enough of a butthead, that she went in the back and brought them out. I told her I just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same furballs. She got two litters, (females were supposed to be open, but weren't) which is better for her, but they're juuuuuuuuuust getting close to weaning size and sooooo tiny. I've lost some mice that were that small, from that petstore. I don't want to pay the $5/ea. and then have them DIE. She's "going to call me" when she puts them out on the sales floor.

If I could get a 1.4 or 2.3, yeah, I'd even pay $5-7/ea. if it meant that in about 3-4 months I'd be able to feed my picky babies and having them EATING regularly.

I think the only way you should call any price gouging is when you HAVE to have the product. I. E. gas, groceries, milk, water...
ASFs are not a "need" for 99% of reptile keepers. I had them once, and I don't regret not keeping them, as I had no luck with them at all, and didn't find my snakes would eat them any more readily than regular rats.
If you can get $15 each, charge it. If you want to breed them yourself and charge $0.25 each, go for it. It's your animal, then you get to set whatever price you want. If I want to say my normal male baby ball pythons are $200 each, then it's my right to say so. If people buy them for that price, then I'd be ecstatic.
Of course.. people won't pay that.. so I don't price them that way. If your local show has people willing to pay $5 each for ASFs then good for them! I paid WAAAY more for my first trios, that's for darned sure.
Just because it's more than YOU would want to pay, doesn't mean it's "price gouging". I wouldn't pay the price for brand name shirts when I can get the same item for a fraction of it... but I wouldn't say the store is gouging me by charging more. I just buy the cheaper shirt.
Same with any product. If you don't like the price of ASFs, then buy mice. Or rats. Or gerbils. Whatever floats your boat! As long as your snakes are happy and healthy and eating, it doesn't really matter.

Hi,

Sweety314,

Maybe the breeder uses one of the alternative names instead as they seem to have a few.

As long as it is the same scientific name and looks the same I wouldn't bother trying to change what he calls them. :)


dr del

I pay $1 per African rat :D ...

$2 on a bad day :(

To be honest around here its roughly $2 for a mouse and $5 for an ASF.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I think the only way you should call any price gouging is when you HAVE to have the product. I. E. gas, groceries, milk, water...
ASFs are not a "need" for 99% of reptile keepers. I had them once, and I don't regret not keeping them, as I had no luck with them at all, and didn't find my snakes would eat them any more readily than regular rats.
If you can get $15 each, charge it. If you want to breed them yourself and charge $0.25 each, go for it. It's your animal, then you get to set whatever price you want. If I want to say my normal male baby ball pythons are $200 each, then it's my right to say so. If people buy them for that price, then I'd be ecstatic.
Of course.. people won't pay that.. so I don't price them that way. If your local show has people willing to pay $5 each for ASFs then good for them! I paid WAAAY more for my first trios, that's for darned sure.
Just because it's more than YOU would want to pay, doesn't mean it's "price gouging". I wouldn't pay the price for brand name shirts when I can get the same item for a fraction of it... but I wouldn't say the store is gouging me by charging more. I just buy the cheaper shirt.
Same with any product. If you don't like the price of ASFs, then buy mice. Or rats. Or gerbils. Whatever floats your boat! As long as your snakes are happy and healthy and eating, it doesn't really matter.

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Exactlty!!! excellent post

I got 5 of them from the Hamburg PA Show for 10 bucks.

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Originally Posted by TekWarren

A couple years ago I wanted some of these rodents but was simply NOT going to pay $75/trio here in MI. I got some in a trade instead and never looked back. Today was actually my first ever reptile show that we sold at. I put my rats up for $2 each, male or female, any size and sold a grand total of 8 all day. I think folks are entitled to price their animals to get out of them what they put in. I also think there are people who "cash in" on animals when they are a commodity in an area. These rodents breed in great numbers so propagation should not be to difficult. Like my vision or not I don't think asf rats should be hard to come by or any more expensive than other rodents. People told me asf rats would not catch and that made me want to spread the word about them even more. Could I have charged $5? yes since there was no competition and it doesn't sound like anyone has sold asf in Grand Rapids, MI since they first started popping up. Would I feel right about the price...no. I didn't even cover the cost of my table let alone the drive to the show and back. I am satisfied with just sharing what I know about them with others and getting people talking about them.

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'Cha, I'm lucky. If I ever decide to start up a colony I can get mine for 2 bucks. ;) You really got me interested in ASFs. My mom is going to hate you! :D

You can always make the drive to one of the Wheaton, IL shows. Mice are $.60, small rats are $1 and small adult ASFs are $1 - $2. It's all supply and demand. If the demand is high enough by you to warrant high prices you should start selling them.