ASF Care, Breed, Size?

So, I after hearing the ASF term over and over, I finally looked it up, and was quite surprised. I noticed that people like to breed these more than traditional mice or rats, mostly because of less smell. I wanted to make sure this is a valid claim, as I will probably breed my own feeders sometime soon. Thursday was the first day my bp Pandora took two adult mice, and seems to have no problem, I am going to check her over today. I was worried about breeding rats because they would get too big, but it seems like ASF's are kind of in the middle as far as size goes.

Basically, what I am asking is--how big are ASF's in comparison to mice/rats--adulthood and growing up stages, and what benefits are there to ASF's over mice/rats (smell, less demanding husbandry etc)

Thanks

Austin, I wouldn't say people like to breed ASF's more than traditional mice or rats - not at this point anyways. They are becoming more commonplace though and more accepted in the herping community.

Some of their benefits being the almost complete lack of smell, their colony living arrangement which basically means as long as you provide food and water they pretty much take care of themselves, at maturity they are about 2 to 2.5 times the size of an adult mouse so they don't outgrow the needs of any ball python.

Some of their downsides can be their tendency to bite first and ask questions later, they are hell on plastic water bottles so glass is a must or a metal bottle guard and if they escape, they are not easy to catch. There is a concern with ball pythons about prey imprinting and that can be a worry if you've started a BP on ASF's but sell it to someone that cannot get those easily. Some of my own BP's will easily switch prey types, others will not.

Thanks a lot. I was worried most about the size, but that seems perfect. I wouldnt have to feed multiples anymore. About the husbandry, I saw the stickies on diy tubs, and I made one successfully I think, but my tub is not nearly as big as some of the ones in the stickies, and the tubs I am using are the biggest tubs I have ever been able to find. The problem is that they narrow down too much at the bottom. The bottom dimensions are 1 ft x 1 1/2 ft. This is not that big, at least to me. Before I begin anything major, I will try to find some bigger tubs if you think I should. I have a lot of spare tubs the same size as the one I already made, so it would cut a lot of costs to not have to buy new ones. I already used 1/4'' mesh, since there is really no harm in using that for rats either, I wanted to be versatile. Setting up the water bottle may be weird though, right now, my bottle sits in a cup cozy (goes around a can to keep it cold/warm), which i put some holes into and shoestringed it through some soldered holes in the tub. I know it seems rickety, but it works well, and the mice we have had dont chew on it, they seem to like climbing on it. You said that ASF's would tear this to shreds, so would it be best to clip one square of the mesh out in order to just keep the water bottle on the outside of the tub, then I wouldnt have to worry about chewing.

I think that is all I have for now, thanks for the help and I will ask if I have more questions.

If you are having trouble finding tubs, many of us use 10 gallon tanks for our ASF's. they are usually about 9 bucks each. the screen lids if you don't want to make your own are also about 8 bucks each, and the clips to secure them are 3 bucks. a glass water bottle is 6 bucks, and the water bottle holder 4 bucks. so total for each tank would be about $30.

Caution though... It would be just about impossible with one snake to not get almost immediately over run. These things reproduce more consistantly then any other rodent. When the females have their babies, they will be pregnant again by the end of that day. my average litter size is 12... and that is every 3 weeks. Some will sell mice and rats to pet shops when they get too many... but many pet shops will not take ASF's. Generally speaking, there love to bite makes them undesirable pets for the main stream pet trade.

To answer your questions, the smell is next to nothing, and that is HUGE to most people including myself. They take 3 - 4 times longer to grow to full size compared to a rat. When full grown they are twice the size of an extra large mouse... about the size of a small rat only fatter. They eat and drink much less then mice and rats (probably 1/3 as much). Rats / mice, to avoid the stink, even with the perfect setup, you have to clean every 5 days. ASF setups can easily go 3 weeks, and even then they don't stink like a 5 day old rat set up. Some claim to have "tame" ASF's. That said, once they have babies, you will need to pick them up with feeding tongs. If you don't, you will likely get bit, and they will draw blood.

I wouldn't worry too much about the prey imprinting theory. Sure, it can happen, but it is not likely. Haven't talked to anyone yet that was not able to switch from ASF's to rats in time.

Mike

I see the quick breeding as a good thing, as we can control the breeding by putting the males where we want, and if they are so prolific, they will be more consistent. If they age slowly, I would probably be feeding multiples still, which would also help cut down on overpopulating. I can sell extras to another friend of mine as well, but I see your point with not being able to sell extras to pet stores. There is a pretty reputable exotic pet store near me that breeds their own feeders, which I may be employed at soon, if all goes well. I may be able to convince them to let me sell them extra ASF's, maybe, since I wouldnt ask much, and even then it would be in store credit.

If I still use a plastic bottle, but just stick the metal tip through the hardware cloth, wouldnt this work? The critters wouldnt be able to get at the plastic to bite at it.

We have some glass tanks we could use, but they are more of a pain for cleaning, and not stackable without a rack.

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Originally Posted by ThyTempest

I see the quick breeding as a good thing, as we can control the breeding by putting the males where we want, and if they are so prolific, they will be more consistent.

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Just keep in mind, that once you seperate, you can not re-intoduce. If you re-introduce, they will kill each other. this is true for siblings, children, strangers, and previous mates.

Hmm...was not expecting this. How is it that people move the males around to breed with multiple females in various enclosures then?

They do this technique with rats and mice. Not with ASF's.

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I noticed that people like to breed these more than traditional mice or rats, mostly because of less smell. I wanted to make sure this is a valid claim

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Definitely a valid claim, I recently got mine (I also breed rats and mice) and I cleaned their enclosure after 2 weeks and there was hardly any smell, not something I can do with mice and rats.

I never remove and try to re-introduce an adult ASF into a colony. Maybe some people have had success doing it but any time I've tried it the intruder was immediately chased and had I not intervened would likely have been mauled and killed. They are so fast though most of the time the introduced adult gets at least one or two bad bites before I can rescue it. I only tried it twice before realizing, at least for my colonies of ASF's, this will never work.

They are VERY much colony driven creatures with a strict social system which seems to be from what I've observed, run by the dominant female of the colony. She bosses the other females around, even the male gets his share of her temper if he ticks her off, she will often sort the babies out the way she wants things done even if they aren't her own babies, etc. It's actually quite fascinating watching them interact.

How much are ASF's, and do most petstores/rodent breeders carry them?

We bought ours from a rodent breeder that attends the Taylor, Michigan snake show for $5.00 per young adult ASF. He seperates them by gender so it's very easy to pick out a nice breeding group to start out with.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

We bought ours from a rodent breeder that attends the Taylor, Michigan snake show for $5.00 per young adult ASF. He seperates them by gender so it's very easy to pick out a nice breeding group to start out with.

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Cool, thanks a lot. I may try to get over to the Taylor show next month. I heard that there is a guy that breeds them for the Kalamazoo show, maybe it is the same one. I emailed somone about the breeder to get his info, if you happen to know the name or number of the breeder you got yours from, could you send me a pm?

Thanks a lot

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Originally Posted by ThyTempest

How much are ASF's, and do most petstores/rodent breeders carry them?

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I bought a trio of full grown adults ready to breed at $20. Btw, I have taken my male out and re-introduced him twice now and he hasnt been mauled or killed. I pulled him out right before the females had babies because I was afraid he would eat them like my male rats did a couple times before I started pulling them out too. I am not saying it will always work out nicely, just that it is possible.

There is no need to "Chance" pulling the male out, and then introducing. The male will NOT harm the babies. They are EXTREMLY good dads. Very protective, very caring.

If they were to make a TV series on the ASF family structure, it would be like leave it to beaver... only they would bite if you pissed them off!

I have to ask, are you planning on raising your own feeders for one snake? :confused:

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Originally Posted by mcavana

Caution though... It would be just about impossible with one snake to not get almost immediately over run. These things reproduce more consistantly then any other rodent. When the females have their babies, they will be pregnant again by the end of that day. my average litter size is 12... and that is every 3 weeks. Some will sell mice and rats to pet shops when they get too many... but many pet shops will not take ASF's. Generally speaking, there love to bite makes them undesirable pets for the main stream pet trade.

Mike

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Yeah, despite what everyone says, I think I do want to breed feeders for only one snake, sort of. I would be sending away some for a fiend, but it is really not a factor. Pandora ate 2 adult mice last feeding, and was ready for a third, but that was the first time she had multiples, so I didnt offer the third. She is on live, so for me to buy 2-3 live feeder mice, or an equivalent in rat, would cost me about 5 dollars. 5 dollars a week seems like nothing, but at 20 bucks a month for a broke college kid, I just know it is going to add up. Food is rediculously cheap, as is water, and I already have a ton of tubs I can use, all the tools, zip ties and hardware cloth is already purchased, since I have one tub made right now, since I will need something no matter what I keep or breed.

I want to try to switch her to frozen thawed, that way, I have two options the way I see it. I can ....buy frozens a hell of a lot cheaper, or breed and euthanize, freeze as population control, which I could feed, sell or if no other solution, compost them for my mom's gardens.

Should I pick up a few f/t and try to offer those first, and if that doesnt go well, do the process with stun, p/k, f/t etc. Last feed, she was hesitant to strike until the mouse was standing still. I just have a hunch that if I pre-scent and make sure it is warm, and wiggle it on some tongs, she will take it.

ASF's just seem like a better choice because they dont smell. My mom isnt too happy about rodents in the house, and in august we are moving into an apartment in which we wont have space to keep rodents in a room all by there lonesome, so we will be around any smell any feeders make constantly. Another reason why I want f/t, and preferably ASF's.

Hope this makes at least a lick of sense.

with the cost of caging, bedding, quality food... for one snake... you likely won't save any money breeding your own rodents.

I have 10 snakes, and I save a little breeding my own rodents.

Ack, maybe, but I really need to find a solution to this. I am really hoping she will switch to f/t easily, that will save me a lot of money, either locally or from a big supplier.

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Originally Posted by ThyTempest

Cool, thanks a lot. I may try to get over to the Taylor show next month. I heard that there is a guy that breeds them for the Kalamazoo show, maybe it is the same one. I emailed somone about the breeder to get his info, if you happen to know the name or number of the breeder you got yours from, could you send me a pm?

Thanks a lot

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PM sent. :)

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Originally Posted by Corrupter

I bought a trio of full grown adults ready to breed at $20. Btw, I have taken my male out and re-introduced him twice now and he hasnt been mauled or killed. I pulled him out right before the females had babies because I was afraid he would eat them like my male rats did a couple times before I started pulling them out too. I am not saying it will always work out nicely, just that it is possible.

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I agree that there's no reason to remove the male due to worry he'd hurt his own offspring. These are very strong colony animals where every adult cares for all babies. Even the half-grown older babies will pitch in and care for the younger ones.

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Originally Posted by ThyTempest

Ack, maybe, but I really need to find a solution to this. I am really hoping she will switch to f/t easily, that will save me a lot of money, either locally or from a big supplier.

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If you are looking at space issues and your mom not wanting rodents in the house in the first place and you're only feeding one snake, I'd probably just try to get the snake over to f/t feeding. You can find some great online suppliers for frozen rodents once you know the snake will regularily take f/t. When you figure out the costs per prey item, it's pretty reasonable and you can order 6 months to a year of her food at a time (or various sizes to cover her growth potention).

Good info on ASF: http://www.jirds.cwc.net/rag/profiles/nmmr.htm

Ive been tossing around the idea of breeding my own feeders for a while now and ASFs look like the way to go. My rodent guy is cheap ($1 pups and $1.5 smalls) but with the price of gas the 60mile round trip commute every week isnt worth it.

QUESTIONS

1. I will be building a rack using the small cement tubs Home Depot sells, how many females can I put with a male?

2. I currently have 12 BPs, how many total breeding groups would you reccomend?

3. I see the male never needs to be taken from the colony, is there risks like rats with the mom getting prego immediately after giving birth?

4. I see everyone reccomends the glass water bottles. I wont be using a gravity fed system in the rack just placing a bottle on top of each tub, will I still need a glass bottle?

Thanks for any info

1,) you have to just experiment and see what works for you. people do anywhere from 1 female to 10 or more. what works best for me is 1 male, 3 females.

2.) It depends on number one, and your snakes.

3.) Assuming you are talking about ASF's, the mom will repregnate the day the babies are born. she is pretty much pregnant 100% of the time. Unlike mice and rats, this back to back breeding does not appear to have any negative effects on the females or the the babies.

4.) If the actual bottle is inside of the enclosure, then glass is a must. If only the metal stem is in the enclosure, then anything will work.


I have 10 snakes. only been breeding for 6 months. So far 3 groups of 1.3 breeders is what works for me. but keep in mind, i feed multiple younger asf's. to each snake. if i were letting them get full grown and feeding only one per snake, i would need probably half as many breeders.

Would a 26x20x6 cememnt tub be too big for ASFs? Too deep for them to get to the water? Also what group size would fit comfortably in this size tub?

The rack has 6 tubs so if I holdback some will keeping all the males in one tub and females in another until I want to start a new breeding group be ok?

These are tuff questions. a 6" high tub with a traditional water bottle stem stuck in the top mesh would be fine fine for adults, but would be useless for babies up to at least 10 weeks (chime in time line guys)..... as they would not be able to reach it.

I love tubs. but keep in mind, with the number of snakes you are talking about, you could also use 4 ten gallon gallon tanks. inclucing the tops, water bottles, hopper ingredients, you would be under 100 bucks. that would be two tanks for the 1.3 or 1.4 breeders, and two tanks for the grow ups.