Belly v overhead Heat Source

Can anyone give me any scholarly sources regarding belly heat for balls?

Specifically, I'm wondering where this belly heat school of thought comes from.

It seems logical to me that heat comes down from the sun and heats things on the ground. So it would seem that a RHP would be a logical choice for heating and yet everyone is invested in belly heat.

I'm curious as to where this got started and how this came to be the Holy Grail of heating....

Well, you can spend $3.50 on flexwatt and use 3 or 4 watts of electricity or you can spend a minimum of $60 with shipping and operate at 40 to 60 watts to heat the same enclosure with a panel. You can buy a Kia or a BMW to drive to work in. They will both get you there. One costs $11,000 the other costs $55,000. Same principle.

So, what I hear you saying is that belly heat is for the convenience of the keeper and not the health of the snake?

Simply economics. For terrestrial it works just as well to use belly heat. For an arboreal species it would probably be better to have the panel. That is my unscholarly opinion. Others may not agree with me.

Hmmm. Yeah, we all have opinions. I guess I was looking more for research....

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Originally Posted by starmom

Hmmm. Yeah, we all have opinions. I guess I was looking more for research....

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Sorry. I'm a gentleman but not a scholar. I do have both methods in use and read what I could find out about it. The only real difference that I was able to find is that the panels will work well in a colder room than flexwatt will. :)

If your looking for research, check out what all of the large successul breeders are using. If I'm not mistaken, they all use some form of rack system with a belly or side heating system utilizing heat tape or something similar. Their success should speak for itself.

Belly heat has been used for a long time with good results. People have also used back heat and some swear by that as well. Generally as a reptile keeper you find what works and go with it.

I have been seriously looking into the radiant heat panels and the possible benifits that could be gained by the person keeping a couple ball pythons as pets. (Way to expensive for your average breeder to consider using on all their snakes) I have made the blueprints for a display type enclosure that I want to build two of and use a radiant heat panel in one and UTH type belly heat in the other. See how the actual enclosures balance out with heat gradiants and monitor both for a while to make sure they are both safe for the snakes. Then I plan on using two normal babies of the same sex from one of our clutches that are approximately the same weight. I will try to keep everything else the same and see if either set up gives the snake any advantage over the first year or so and repeat a couple times. If I produce any repeatable results it may be worth further investigation. I may even try it with breeders at some point, see if it increases locks, egg count, egg size, or changes feeding habits or anything for that matter, but when you have limited budgets you have to start some place and the babies seem like a good enough place. All and all it still has to wait as I have a couple more racks for the snake room to build, couple more racks for the rodent room that need built and plumbed, need to actually start having snakes ovy and lay eggs, and we are currently looking at buying a bigger house.

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Originally Posted by dsirkle

Sorry. I'm a gentleman but not a scholar. I do have both methods in use and read what I could find out about it. The only real difference that I was able to find is that the panels will work well in a colder room than flexwatt will. :)

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Absolutely right about a hobbyist keeping snakes in a room that is not heated to 80F all the time!! This is exactly why I am switching over for my snakes not in my sons room.
Earen's room is the warmest in the house and Earen likes it hot!! :D His room stays at about 75-78F all the time!!! The balls are in there and they are doing well with flex watt heating their tubs and cages.
My boas are in a different part of the house and the rest of my house is kept chilly, coupled with the reality that we live in a chilly place! Even in the summer the nighttime temps go into the 40's :( Flex watt is just not cutting it.
I've ordered some RHP's from Rich at Reptile Basics and am going to give them a shot.
While I was mulling over this change, it occurred to me that snakes always get overhead heat from the sun and that sun heats the ground (what we call belly heat). It is my thought that somehow, and at some point in time, flex watt became the holy grail. Good advertising? Less money? Don't know. All I know is that my boas and balls will be getting some RHP lovin'!! :gj:
As far as breeders go, I would think that economics plays a big part since their goal is to sell their stock and not hang on to most of it. Also, perhaps they, too, have fallen into the flex watt reality and have not given thought as to why or where this comes from....
Hmmm......

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

Belly heat has been used for a long time with good results. People have also used back heat and some swear by that as well. Generally as a reptile keeper you find what works and go with it.

I have been seriously looking into the radiant heat panels and the possible benifits that could be gained by the person keeping a couple ball pythons as pets. (Way to expensive for your average breeder to consider using on all their snakes) I have made the blueprints for a display type enclosure that I want to build two of and use a radiant heat panel in one and UTH type belly heat in the other. See how the actual enclosures balance out with heat gradiants and monitor both for a while to make sure they are both safe for the snakes. Then I plan on using two normal babies of the same sex from one of our clutches that are approximately the same weight. I will try to keep everything else the same and see if either set up gives the snake any advantage over the first year or so and repeat a couple times. If I produce any repeatable results it may be worth further investigation. I may even try it with breeders at some point, see if it increases locks, egg count, egg size, or changes feeding habits or anything for that matter, but when you have limited budgets you have to start some place and the babies seem like a good enough place. All and all it still has to wait as I have a couple more racks for the snake room to build, couple more racks for the rodent room that need built and plumbed, need to actually start having snakes ovy and lay eggs, and we are currently looking at buying a bigger house.

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I would love to be informed of your hypothesis, experiment design, variables and outcomes. I think this is a very worthy experiment and have my own hunch. It is cool that you are willing to do this over time. :gj:

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Originally Posted by starmom

I would love to be informed of your hypothesis, experiment design, variables and outcomes. I think this is a very worthy experiment and have my own hunch. It is cool that you are willing to do this over time. :gj:

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I don't think it will actually make much difference in the development of the babies other than maybe something digestive since snakes rely on surrounding heat to digest their food. One thing I think the RHP will require is a piece of tile put under it to simulate a rock under the sun. With that said I think it may be benificial to creating the environmental changes a snake sees during breeding season. With flex Watt you drop the temps 5 to 10 degrees and the tub reaches that within the hour! Not how it happens at night in the wild. The sun drops air temps cool, but the rocks all retain some warmth for a while. The act of looking for heat as the sun sets is something that could draw our boys and girls together in the evening as the sun sets. It might also help to trigger those natural urges! I see it as possibly a better way to simulate the breeding season and possibly get reluctant males to go after the girls and vice versa. The sooner we get our boys and girls to start locking up the sooner you may see eggs. The shorter the overall breeding cycle the sooner we can get our girls and boys that don't eat during breeding time back on food. The sooner and longer part of the year they are back on food the healthier and bigger the snake for the next breeding cycle.

Sorry Starmom, I'm not a scientist, biologist, or anything else that that ends in "ist"! I was trained as an electronics tech and work as an electrical engineer. As both I don't deal in hypothesis. I deal with law, rules, and application theory. I am good at taking notes and have a lot of work to do before I have all the controls in place to even attempt this. Plan on using a closet where the room temp changes and all other atmospheric (kids running around, cats pawing the front of the enclosure....) variables can be controlled as close as possible. Food will be as close to equal as possible and several other ideas have been formulated to keep variables to a minimum. Even with all that I don't think my experiments will be closely enough controlled nor include a large enough sample group to be put in the next science world magazine. It should be enough to help my wife and I know what works for us and possibly put the info out for those who are willing to work with this stuff on their own and see if they get similar results if I get any results worth mentioning at all.

First thing is first though my wife and I have wittnessed many locks between one of our big girls and the big proven breeder male we have. Now we just have to wait and see if we get our first batch of eggs! :D Once we are successful at breeding (Something other than rodents :oops:), have a little extra income to devote to science, and have enough extra breeders we can let the fun stuff start.

Nocturnal, terrestrial snakes rely on belly heat and the ambient heat around them, not heat from above, such as the sun. They stay in burrows and termite mounds throughout the day, coming out at night after the ground/rock/road has been warmed by the sun. They then go back to their burrow or termite mound where the ambient heat is still relatively high. They don't rely on any radiant heat.

I use flexwatt because a couple decades of research has proven that belly heat works and the snakes thrive. Sure you can make lamps work, but they dry the air and are expensive to replace and to run. Radiant heat panels work well and don't dry the air, but they are expensive and are still fairly high wattage. When I can heat an enclosure with less than 20 watts of power, instead of using 100w, then I'm going to go with the most efficient and least expensive.

If your room temp dips that low, why not just get an oil-filled heater to heat the room. They cost $40 instead of $80/panel for a RHP.

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Nocturnal, terrestrial snakes rely on belly heat and the ambient heat around them, not heat from above, such as the sun. They stay in burrows and termite mounds throughout the day, coming out at night after the ground/rock/road has been warmed by the sun. They then go back to their burrow or termite mound where the ambient heat is still relatively high. They don't rely on any radiant heat.

I use flexwatt because a couple decades of research has proven that belly heat works and the snakes thrive. Sure you can make lamps work, but they dry the air and are expensive to replace and to run. Radiant heat panels work well and don't dry the air, but they are expensive and are still fairly high wattage. When I can heat an enclosure with less than 20 watts of power, instead of using 100w, then I'm going to go with the most efficient and least expensive.

If your room temp dips that low, why not just get an oil-filled heater to heat the room. They cost $40 instead of $80/panel for a RHP.

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So, I think what I'm trying to ascertain is not what is economically advantageous for the keeper, but is best for the snake; with the understanding that what is best might not translate across all snake species. I am not talking about overhead lights at all and am only talking about RHP's and flex watt. :gj:
Nocturnal terrestrial snakes absolutely rely on the sun- it heats the ground and the ambient air. Also, not all ball pythons live in termite mounds.
But, you mention a couple of decades of research; could you cite some so I can read it? :)
Lastly, you end by again citing keeper economy which is not what I am interested in; my focus is on the snakes. ;)

Yes, they rely on the sun, but don't have any direct contact with it like diurnal reptiles do(such as Beardies). I didn't say all Ball Pythons live in termite mounds.. I said burrows and termite mounds. They don't live in bushes, and they don't "live" in trees. Young males have been "found" in trees, but they don't live there. Termite mounds produce their own heat, and Balls have regularly been found underneath these.

Sun heats a road during the day in Ghana or Togo, it remains warm throughout the night when the Ball Pythons and other nocturnal reptiles come out to make use of the heat. Ie: Belly heat. Radiant heat works just fine and creates a very similar basking area similar to what flexwatt creates.

Why not talk to people such as 8Ball Adam, Tim Bailey, NERD, BHB and quite a few others and ask them what they use. Lamps, RHPs or Lamps for their racks of Ball Pythons. They will either say the ambient heat in the room(VPI), flexwatt or heat cable. I can't think of any of them that use RHPs or lamps in a rack system. If a Ball Python is kept in an actual enclosure, then they provide proper ambient temps by heating the room and then provide belly heat in a small portion of the cage.

If your room is colds, either heat the room with an oil filled heater, or buy RHPs for each cage. If you have the snakes in a rack system and the room gets cold, insulate the sides of the rack with Reflectix(Home Depot) and some insulation. Works well!

Becky, I think you're missing my point. I was attempting to open up a discussion regarding the various heating methodologies and why so many believe that flex watt is the best way.
I am not asking for myself; I understand what I am doing and why I am doing. I was not really asking for advice but, like I said, opening up a discussion regarding the different types of heating and why and how different methodologies have come to be. While I have no problems talking to Kara or to Adam about this, I am not interested in the economics of heating! :oops:
Research is great and am still wondering about the decades of research you were talking about... :rolleyes:
Also, I do have research that suggests ball pythons do not only live in termite mounds but also live in bushes and mangrove swamps. And this is what I'm talking about: research on these animals is not prolific and some information gets put out there and is grabbed onto and is never questioned or looked into.
It has been my experience that asking questions of existing schools of thought is the very best way to expand the knowledge base for everyone; but perhaps this forum is not the best place to have a scholarly discussion on different ideas......