Is it worth it to switch??

Ok, I'm going to join the wide world and say "I've had it!" with breeding mice. They give me one, maybe two good litters then after that they either eat most of the babies or only drop two or three sporadically. And we're getting tired of cleaning every 3 days to keep the smell down.

So, I've been looking into rat breeding but must ask some questions of all you breeders out there first:

1- Here is a picture of my current mouse setup. That is all the space I have for rodents. Period. The space dimensions are 6'x2', racks are 22" long with the breeder tubs in sideways (tubs are about 26lx15wx10h)

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...ouse_racks.jpg

I need to know if this is enough room for a small rat colony. Would I be able to keep, say, 1 male in his own tub, and 3 pairs of females two to a tub? How many rats should I have to feed 7 snakes (the baby corn is still too small for rat pinks)?

2- I currently have 8 snakes, 4 corns 4 BPs, of varying sizes(from an 8g corn to a 966+g BP). I believe the corns would switch to rats with little trouble, since they'll eat whatever rodent is dangled in front of them FT or PK, and the two adult het BPs were being fed PK rats before...but my normal and pastel BPs have never eaten rats or FT food before. What order should I take to see if they'll switch to FT rats? Should I get them on rats first then FT or FT then rats??

If switching doesn't work for the two BPs, and they refuse to have anything to do with rats, would it still be worth it to breed rats for the other two BPs and the corns?

In the end, I want to be totally 'self sufficient' with feeders and not have to go to the store each week to get supplemental food. Currently, since my mice aren't producing regularly and I have to give 2-3 adult mice to the female het BP alone, this is a regular thing and not very cost effective.

I eagerly welcome any and all ideas in this matter. :) Thanks!

I would change your mouse set up. I think non-see through tubs work great. when I had my colony in a 20 gallon tank I did not get anything, but once I put them in a rack in a Barn that gets only about 20 minutes of light a day( to put up the dogs from outside at night) and now im over run with 100+ mice. Also do not mess with them any while they have a litter, and that their food has alot of protein in it for the mothers.:)

Maybe this will help you, if not, good luck with Rats! ( i now i didnt have any...)

I would try to get them on rat pups or crawlers, soo much easier to breed.

Ok, 7 snakes to feed rats. 6 tubs available. If you think you would be able to switch them all over to FT, this will be 1000 times easier on you and the rats. I would expect anywhere from 9-14 pups in a litter, giving you from 18- 28 pups for a 3 week period. Stocking up will make it easier during times of feast and famine.

I would get 6 females and 2 males. With the 6 tubs, you have 3 levels, two tubs per each level. Start at the top, put the males into the top tubs. Leave them in for 3 weeks, pull them and put in the next level down.

After 3 more weeks pass, the weaners in level 1 get gassed, and thrown in the fridge. The males go from level 2 to the bottom most level. The girls in the top level get a break.

After 3 more weeks, the males get pulled, and go in the top level. Level number 2 gets the weaners pulled and gassed. Frozen for later.

Continue to cycle the males through the levels, 1 2 and 3, leaving them in for 3 weeks at a time. That should work out. Now, it's not guaranteed to be on time each week, but my colony is pretty reliable.

This should work if you have all of your snakes, or the majority on FT.

Just an idea for ya! ;)

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I need to know if this is enough room for a small rat colony.

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Yes you could build something like this which would take very little space

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...rs/RatRack.jpg

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What order should I take to see if they'll switch to FT rats? Should I get them on rats first then FT or FT then rats??

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I would recommend switching to rat first unless they are already used to F/T, once they eat rats with consistency (6 to 8 consecutive successful feeding) I would attempt switching to F/T

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If switching doesn't work for the two BPs, and they refuse to have anything to do with rats, would it still be worth it to breed rats for the other two BPs and the corns?

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Absolutely!

And this is the breeding schedule I used to use when housing 2 females per tubs (if that helps)

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...ngSchedule.png

Connie, that sounds great!

All my snakes are currently on pre killed prey, except for the two female corns (8g and 50g) who are on FT now. I doubt it would be hard to get the two Het BPs on FT, since I have to hold their prey totally still in front of them to get them to take it as it is. My concern is my normal (480g) and rescued pastel (228g) BPs. They are on PK, so they might take FT...but I'm not so sure about them taking rats... which is why I asked if it would still be worth the switch to rat breeding for the other 5 (6 once the corn is big enough for rat pinks).

I'm going to be picking up some FT small rats at the show tomorrow for my older BPs to avoid feeding 2-3 mice a sitting...so I might just pick up a few other sizes as well and just jump right in to see if my corns will take them.
How, tho, do you suggest I work with the other two BPs? Should I try getting them on FT mice, then FT rats OR should I try getting them on PK rats, then FT rats? Nagini (my normal girl) is my picky lady and just got over 400g at a year old. She's my main concern here.

Thanks for the info tho!

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

After 3 more weeks pass, the weaners in level 1 get gassed, and thrown in the fridge.

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Connie, I'm sure this was just a typo on your part, but just in case any newbie reads this who might not know better...

After CO2ing the rats, they should go in the FREEZER.

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Originally Posted by Argentra

How, tho, do you suggest I work with the other two BPs? Should I try getting them on FT mice, then FT rats OR should I try getting them on PK rats, then FT rats? Nagini (my normal girl) is my picky lady and just got over 400g at a year old. She's my main concern here.

Thanks for the info tho!

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Well, it is a double wammy. I'm not sure which is the bigger hurdle, the challenge of switching them from live to FT, or from mice to rats.

I would start working on getting them to take rats first. Then if they switch to rats, try with the FT. I think the stimulation of a live rodent will be instrumental for getting them to switch to rats at all.

I would work with all of them before you commit. Like you said, switching them to rats first, to even see if they will take it.

It will be frustrating, but I think the benefits of raising your own feeders is worth it.


Also, Deborah has a great idea to. To just go with the rat rack right off the bat. It's a smaller footprint, and can house the same if not more number of rats. It will come in handy if you ever need to hold back more females for breeding.

You may find that you'll need more female rats at some point, I would just keep that in mind. While they are generally reliable, you will have times when no one produces. And it sucks, but you may be set back 3 to 4 weeks. Which then it's always nice to have more female rats than snakes. Or just have a nice stock pile of rats in the freezer.

When I started breeding, we still ordered frozen rats online, and as we got going it was a godsend that we had those as a back up. Now, I have enough girls producing, we have a large stock pile in the freezer as a back up.


Just a few more ideas, I'm sure others will be able to chime in as well :D

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Originally Posted by kc261

Connie, I'm sure this was just a typo on your part, but just in case any newbie reads this who might not know better...

After CO2ing the rats, they should go in the FREEZER.

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Ah yes thanks :) fridge=freezer lol.

Ah deb, you posted while I was replying...

That's a nice rack, but I like being able to interact with my rodents, hence the tubs I have now. I also like the added ventilation on the sides with these taller tubs, and I can place the water bottles inside (they're in metal holders).

That schedule is awesome, tho, and should be very useful! Thanks!

gotta ask. have you considered ASF's?

From what you describe... especially the cleaning part, rats aren't going to be much better. in my opinion, rats smell even worse then mice, because they are bigger, so there is a lot more pee and poop compared to mice! ASF tubs can go at least 2 - 3 weeks before needing to be cleaned. and when they do need to be cleaned, they still don't stink.

I have 8 ball pythons, a kingsnake, and a cornsnake. they ALL love the asf's! plus even when full grown they are not to0 big for a 800+ gram ball python.... so u can continue to feed live or prekilled.

they are the best moms / dads in the world!

:) ASFs are too expensive to procure here (since there isn't a big time breeder of them that I know of) and they are too mean. Thanks for asking tho.

Oh, and another question on the rats: Is it alright to have just one female per tub? They would get attention during cleaning and food/water check times, but since they're such social animals I thought I'd make sure they'd be ok singly. I can't get bigger tubs since they wouldn't fit on that shelving.

We switched a few months ago to rats and have not regretted it one iota. It has actually been quite entertaining. We actually end up with quite a few more than we need. Ten times more rats with ten times less odor. We're feeding a Rosy and 4 200-400g. Balls. The rates grow so fast there is only a small window before they are to big for our snakes. Litters have been 8-16. We are still working out the kinks, but I have not bought food for months.

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Originally Posted by Argentra

Oh, and another question on the rats: Is it alright to have just one female per tub? They would get attention during cleaning and food/water check times, but since they're such social animals I thought I'd make sure they'd be ok singly. I can't get bigger tubs since they wouldn't fit on that shelving.

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Good question, something i overlooked.

It is best to keep them in a social setting where ever possible. Now my original "layout" is sorta bust!

Only kidding. While the 2 females are waiting for males or resting, I would just stick them both into one tub or the other.

Remember, you can try different methods of nursing. Some people swear 2 females nursing to a tub works, but I see no need to add to the stress of raising a litter, much less having to deal with an over protective mother, or unmotivated, or baby stealer, or just crap in general.

My mothers do excellent raising a litter by themselves.

That's pretty much what I figured. :) Thanks for the confirmation, tho. I thought they would be ok alone while raising a litter, but while resting they would be lonely.
Oh, and my snakes are all used to pre-killed not live, so that's one step closer to FT. And the corns don't care as long as it's a warm rodent. :)

Ok, I've figured out how to get the supplies for a CO2 chamber cheaply... now to figure out how to get the snakes onto rats. I suppose I could change the adult mice on my feeder card at the store to rats...