Condensation is bad for eggs, but how?

Hi everyone, I know that condensation is not desirable in the incubator and that water on the eggs can kill them. Can anyone elaborate on this? Does the water lead to growths of mold/fungus that kill the eggs? Or does the water get into the egg through its pores?

Thanks,

JonV

short answer is yes. too moist of conditions can lead to mold. and I am not sur ebut I have heard that if the eggs get wet it washes off some of the natural protection the eggs have from mold and fungus. again I am just regurging things I have heard.

I believe that it has to do with the porous nature of eggs. The water prohibits the exhange of oxygen, and basically suffocates the egg.

I believe that it plugs up the pores in the egg so that the egg can't breath.



Edit: Yeah, what Christie said.

so would you say that if I have condensation building up on the press N seal I have over my rubbermaid, it's too humid?

For whatever reason, I was thinking 99% humidity is what I needed or else the eggs would dry out. dunno how i got that info :oops:

One thing I like to do with my clutches is cover them with a paper towel, it catches any drips that come off the lid of the egg box due to condensation.

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Originally Posted by nathanledet

so would you say that if I have condensation building up on the press N seal I have over my rubbermaid, it's too humid?

For whatever reason, I was thinking 99% humidity is what I needed or else the eggs would dry out. dunno how i got that info :oops:

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Nah, it's fine... as long as the condensation isn't dripping on the eggs. I try to tweak my bins so that a little condensation is present (I use the no-sub method with Press N Seal).

Condensation only occurs when the temp outside the box and inside vary. It shouldn't be a problem unless it is building up and dripping right on the eggs.

You gotta remember that these aren't chicken eggs. They don't need to be dry or even close to it.

They are laid in the rainy season, they get wet in the wild and do just fine. A little water won't hurt them, just don't submerge them.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

You gotta remember that these aren't chicken eggs. They don't need to be dry or even close to it.

They are laid in the rainy season, they get wet in the wild and do just fine. A little water won't hurt them, just don't submerge them.

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I was just reading the Barker's book, and I thought the eggs were laid just in time for the babies to hatch for the rainy season. :confuse:

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Originally Posted by tigerlily

I was just reading the Barker's book, and I thought the eggs were laid just in time for the babies to hatch for the rainy season. :confuse:

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Well, given that there is such a long window of time in which they lay, and the variable of weather, I would guess that a good many eggs get rained on.

Plus, given the fact that many other pythons, granted from more humid areas but genetically close to ball pythons, have their eggs rained on regularly with no ill effects, personal experience with balls and extrapolation from other species, a bit of water isn't going to hurt the eggs any.

this is a quote from pythons of the world, volume II Ball Pythons the history, natural history, care and breeding by David and Tracey Barker page 230 "ball python eggs respire as they develop, takin in oxygen and releasing carbon dioxide. ...eggs can be suffocated in a small and airtight egg container if the container is not opened occasionally. ...As soon as an egg slits and the snake inside begins to breathe air, it is necessary that the egg container be ventilated,..."

here is another quote from the above refrenced book this time page 231 "you are creating an enviroment of high humidity, yet at the same time...ball python eggs do not tolorate getting wet. ...they cannot withstand water dripping on them."

it goes on to say that if condensation drips on the eggs pat them dry with a paper towel and as long as it only happens occasionally (like when you open the lid) they can survive.

Some one else said that condensation comes from differing air temps and that is correct. The air out side of the egg container is cooler than the air inside.

I would vent the egg container so that the air in the incubator and the air in th egg container stay close to the same temp.

Just keep an eye on the humidity.

Good Luck!

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Well, given that there is such a long window of time in which they lay, and the variable of weather, I would guess that a good many eggs get rained on.

Plus, given the fact that many other pythons, granted from more humid areas but genetically close to ball pythons, have their eggs rained on regularly with no ill effects, personal experience with balls and extrapolation from other species, a bit of water isn't going to hurt the eggs any.

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Oh my - I'm hoping your not serious...Wet eggs = Dead eggs...
BT

Im serious here people I am going to try this.

Im going to get a bowl as my lid for my egg container. So when the condensations does form, it gently rolls down the side, back into the substrate from wence it came.

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Originally Posted by BT41042

Oh my - I'm hoping your not serious...Wet eggs = Dead eggs...
BT

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Darn it. All those babies I hatched, with water dripping on the eggs throughout incubation, didn't get the note from the barkers.

I'll be sure to tell any subsequent eggs I try to hatch that if they get water dripped on them they must die.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Well, given that there is such a long window of time in which they lay, and the variable of weather, I would guess that a good many eggs get rained on.

Plus, given the fact that many other pythons, granted from more humid areas but genetically close to ball pythons, have their eggs rained on regularly with no ill effects, personal experience with balls and extrapolation from other species, a bit of water isn't going to hurt the eggs any.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Darn it. All those babies I hatched, with water dripping on the eggs throughout incubation, didn't get the note from the barkers.

I'll be sure to tell any subsequent eggs I try to hatch that if they get water dripped on them they must die.

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I'm curious as to what Python eggs you have hatched Wes...Exactly what Python species are referring to when you say their eggs get rained on? Look at the thread in the General Python forum about the Woma eggs - Fella lost 9 eggs in 3 days...Why? I know why - To wet...I'm sure the Barkers are clueless about hatching Python eggs - How many you think they have hatched out over the years? 1000, 5000, 10000?...LOL...Keep giving out bad advice - Very noble of you I must say...
BT

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Originally Posted by BT41042

I'm curious as to what Python eggs you have hatched Wes...Exactly what Python species are referring to when you say their eggs get rained on? Look at the thread in the General Python forum about the Woma eggs - Fella lost 9 eggs in 3 days...Why? I know why - To wet...I'm sure the Barkers are clueless about hatching Python eggs - How many you think they have hatched out over the years? 1000, 5000, 10000?...LOL...Keep giving out bad advice - Very noble of you I must say...
BT

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I've only bred and hatched ball and burmese.

Did you know that Womas were from a MUCH dryer climate than either of the two that I've worked with personally? Have you seen me say ONE word about woma eggs?

Before you tell me my advice, which I have yet to give, having only stated what I know from my own personal experience, is bad, perhaps you should pull your head out of that dark place you keep it and take a look around. While I have not hatched anywhere near the numbers they have, I have hatched enough to tell you that your narrow mindedness is disappointing. Not surprising mind you, there are many sheep, just disappointing.

Just because the barkers say a thing does not mean that is the ONLY way a thing may be done.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I've only bred and hatched ball and burmese.

Did you know that Womas were from a MUCH dryer climate than either of the two that I've worked with personally? Have you seen me say ONE word about woma eggs?

Before you tell me my advice, which I have yet to give, having only stated what I know from my own personal experience, is bad, perhaps you should pull your head out of that dark place you keep it and take a look around. While I have not hatched anywhere near the numbers they have, I have hatched enough to tell you that your narrow mindedness is disappointing. Not surprising mind you, there are many sheep, just disappointing.

Just because the barkers say a thing does not mean that is the ONLY way a thing may be done.

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Typical Wes...LOL...Yep - I'll say it again - Your advice sucks...Funny thing is - Everybody who contributed to this thread all said the same thing but you...IMO - I'd listen to the Barkers and take their advice before I gave your babble a second thought...For the record - I live to dissapoint you - Nothing makes my day more complete...I'll give you the last word - No point in arguing with the all might Wes Pollack - To much for my little narrow mind to handle...Do us all a favor and go back to Fauna...Which species of Pythons did you say got their eggs rained on...LOL...It's like a bad joke...
BT

Ok fellas...can we agree to disagree and keep the negative bickering out of it? Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

Im serious here people I am going to try this.

Im going to get a bowl as my lid for my egg container. So when the condensations does form, it gently rolls down the side, back into the substrate from wence it came.

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Lol, I love the use of wence. Somehow your post reminded me of Gandalf sitting in the egg container looking up at the drops of condensation and saying'

"You....shall not.....pass!!!!!"

JonV

Well, I was asked about this topic by a friend from another forum, and directed here after my response (the friend was not Wes, though I do consider him one; and the forum was not Fauna, though that is usually where I play). I'll preface my comment with the statement that I have fairly limited experience with BPs, but I have successfully bred a few other python species (as well as some colubrids) - so I am not exactly a stranger to egg incubation.

The snippet that was posted from the Barkers' book about egg respiration is absolutely correct (and, therefore, I have often wondered about the logic behind people's desire to seal their egg containers, but that's just me). Python eggs, in general (and not including those from drier climates, like womas, that do less well in "normal', or 'standard" conditions) can tolerate varying amounts of moisture & humidity. For those of you that like to quote/reference the Barkers - very knowledgeable & helpful people, and good sources to reference, btw - you may have also seen commentary (I believe it was with reference to JCP eggs, but it is true for many other species as well) that consistency of the moisture content/humidity is more important than the level of moisture content/humidity. Eggs that are kept drier or wetter thoughout the incubation period still tend to survive - but when they get drier or wetter during various stages (in other words, when the humidity level or moisture content is changed along the way), it can be lethal to the eggs.

Yes, warmth & humidity can encourage mold/fungus growth, but I have found that to be most prevalent on eggs, or parts of eggs, that have been touched more...or, to a lesser degree, eggs that get dripped on a lot. In most cases, the mold does not affect what is going on inside the egg...and most breeders will say to leave the egg alone & see if it hatches (some will take various measures against the mold, some don't bother). As far as water dripping on the eggs - one of the most common things I have seen resulting from this is spotting. It sometimes looks as if the egg is thinner in the spotted areas (so maybe it does do something to the integrity of the surface), but other times it is simply discolored. For what it's worth, my feeling is that if you have a lot of water dripping on your eggs, something should probably be changed - whether it be with the incubation process & setup, or your techniques (ie how you remove the lid).

As for the question about whether excess moisture will harm the eggs - it really depends on how much moisture you're talking about...with a good setup, and fairly consistent conditions, getting dripped on a couple of times is not going to kill them. If you are opening the egg container frequently, and more than a few drops fall on certain eggs every time, well, the results might not be so good.

To the person that commented about a bowl over the incubation container - a round or curved top, was considered an almost ideal situation for exactly the reason you described...namely that the water would trickle down the sides, as opposed to dripping on the eggs. (I suspect that it isn't more widely utilized because of the impact on space - taller containers & decreased stacking capability)

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Originally Posted by hhmoore

and more than a few drops fall on certain eggs

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(what I really meant was, if water pours off the lid onto the egg)

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Originally Posted by nevohraalnavnoj

Lol, I love the use of wence. Somehow your post reminded me of Gandalf sitting in the egg container looking up at the drops of condensation and saying'

"You....shall not.....pass!!!!!"

JonV

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:rofl::rofl:

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Originally Posted by BT41042

Typical Wes...LOL...Yep - I'll say it again - Your advice sucks...Funny thing is - Everybody who contributed to this thread all said the same thing but you...IMO - I'd listen to the Barkers and take their advice before I gave your babble a second thought...For the record - I live to dissapoint you - Nothing makes my day more complete...I'll give you the last word - No point in arguing with the all might Wes Pollack - To much for my little narrow mind to handle...Do us all a favor and go back to Fauna...Which species of Pythons did you say got their eggs rained on...LOL...It's like a bad joke...
BT

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Stupidity is disappointing, I can't help expecting more from people, it's just that I have such high hopes for my fellow man. Alas.

However, it does provide amusement.

Thanks for the chuckles and feel free to continue providing them.

I have no such high hopes for my fellow men~ none of you can help but fight to settle differences. Glad I'm a woman in this life ;)

Just personal experience, but yes I have lost eggs that were being dripped on regularly due to condensation. Ball python eggs as well as corn snake and king snake eggs. Since I started covering all of my eggs with paper towels it hasn't been much of a problem.

Mark

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Just personal experience, but yes I have lost eggs that were being dripped on regularly due to condensation. Ball python eggs as well as corn snake and king snake eggs. Since I started covering all of my eggs with paper towels it hasn't been much of a problem.

Mark

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I thought of this, but I was worried about the paper towel falling to the side and then actually drawing up the condensation that accrued on the side of the egg box.

JonV

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Just personal experience, but yes I have lost eggs that were being dripped on regularly due to condensation. Ball python eggs as well as corn snake and king snake eggs. Since I started covering all of my eggs with paper towels it hasn't been much of a problem.

Mark

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Mark, Do you have any pictures of the setup you use?

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I thought of this, but I was worried about the paper towel falling to the side and then actually drawing up the condensation that accrued on the side of the egg box.

JonV

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It hasn't been a problem. The moisture spreads out and makes the paper towel slightly damp to the touch but not soaking wet. Actually, it probably helps even out the humidity levels.

Some of us were also talking of occasional drip, not constantly falling drops.

A few drops on occasion, will not hurt eggs.

A constant drip, well, that's not occasional. Is it?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Some of us were also talking of occasional drip, not constantly falling drops.

A few drops on occasion, will not hurt eggs.

A constant drip, well, that's not occasional. Is it?

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Now you are backtracking a little....you said before:

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They are laid in the rainy season, they get wet in the wild and do just fine. A little water won't hurt them, just don't submerge them.

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Big difference from saying "a few drops on occasion" and may be misleading or confusing to a new keeper posing the question.

Moreover, I would bet that a lot of eggs in the wild don't "do just fine." I haven't seen any studies but would guess that eggs in the wild don't have anywhere near the hatch rate that they do in captivity. Wild eggs are subject to predation, weather, and other things that aren't factors in captivity.

Not trying to pick apart your words, its just that words need to be chosen carefully and consistently when giving advice on message boards.....

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Some of us were also talking of occasional drip, not constantly falling drops.

A few drops on occasion, will not hurt eggs.

A constant drip, well, that's not occasional. Is it?

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Define occasional. Once an hour? Once a day? Once a week? How much is too much? I'm sure I had plenty of eggs get dripped on once in a while that hatched just fine, I also had eggs that I know were being dripped on that died. My point is, if you cover them up, they don't get dripped on.

Mark

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Now you are backtracking a little....you said before:



Big difference from saying "a few drops on occasion" and may be misleading or confusing to a new keeper posing the question.

Moreover, I would bet that a lot of eggs in the wild don't "do just fine." I haven't seen any studies but would guess that eggs in the wild don't have anywhere near the hatch rate that they do in captivity. Wild eggs are subject to predation, weather, and other things that aren't factors in captivity.

Not trying to pick apart your words, its just that words need to be chosen carefully and consistently when giving advice on message boards.....

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You are absolutely correct. I did not use the best wording I could have and will try to keep such instances to a minimum.

Ball python eggs are pretty resilient...I wish I could find the picture I took last year of a clutch where I had to incubate a slug because it was stuck to a good egg. Throughout the process, it molded beyond recognition, but I got a great picture of this perfect 1/4" space of air between the seemingly random spread of mold and the surface of the egg. The mold grew all around it but due to the eggs active immune system, never actually touched the egg itself.

The bowl-top idea was great, and I'm sure that someone could engineer a lid that basically raised the ceiling in the center of the box in order to direct any moisture to the outer areas of the egg box.

The easier way, of course, is to avoid condensation altogether. This is another reason why I like the substrate method better than the no-substrate way - with substrate, I can have a much greater thermal mass in the egg box, which stabilizes the temperature inside the egg box much more so than what the no-substrate method would do. Water is a great conductor of heat and fluctuates in temperature much more so than 3-4 lbs of vermiculite.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

You are absolutely correct. I did not use the best wording I could have and will try to keep such instances to a minimum.

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Nothing particularly wrong with what you said, just pointing out that I wasn't surprised that someone freaked out on you over it.

Brad I will tell you that I was having a bad problem with condensation at the front of the tub but not at the back. I struggled to get it to level out. After installing a fan angled in the top to better circulate the air. with in 15 minutes of the fan being installed the front of the tub was .5 -.25 degrees differance and the condensation is non existent. I also put a bowl of water in the incubator. I put the bowl in cause being from the south I understand how humidity can play into maintaining temps. so now my incubator is running 88.9-88.0 degrees at 75% RH and the tub is 88.5 degrees with 99% RH and no condensation. I have seen first hand that with a little tweaking you can eliminate condensation all together.

Just my limited very limited input

Interesting point with the humidity in the air of the incubator vs. the air inside a sealed egg box.

Many of us using sealed egg boxes probably have very humid boxes, but very dry air in the interior of the incubator in which the boxes are placed.

I hadn't thought of considering the behavior of very dry air vs. humid air. Sounds good in theory, if humid air holds more heat than very dry air, then a humid incubator would hold more steady temps.

The only thing that comes to mind is what effect that humidity would have long term on any heating elements, wiring, or other electrical devices...

Well the humidity in the bator I am seeing isn't any greater than we see environmentally here in the South during the long summer months or that a coastal city would have so I don't think that it would pose any long term effects. I would be concerned if water was collecting on the elements but so far so good.

Seems like there might be something you could put on the lid to keep the condensation from building = kind of like a no fog mirror. Or perhaps just tape a paper towel to the top. :rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

some kind of like a no fog mirror.

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Thats done by adding flex watt behind the mirror. :D