Culling

I know this is a sensitive topic, which is why I put it advanced husbandry.


DO YOU CULL YOUR BABIES if there is a defect?

I've never had to deal with it (yet) but I would probably have to decide how serious of a defect it was. You'd probably have to use your judgement, but it's probably a necessary practice.

I recall a picture of a ball python with a severly deformed head that someone was marketing as a "new morph", just terrible.

JonV

What do you consider a defect?

What is considered humane culling in the world of ball pythons?

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

What do you consider a defect?

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Depends on the person, I suppose.

What do you consider it to be?

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Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

What is considered humane culling in the world of ball pythons?

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That is a whole other can of worms...

My only reason for culling in any creature usually is health related. Does the defect cause suffering or health issues that affect it's chances of a normal life? That's how I decide.

Spinal kinks, like the ones seen in some of the caramels, as well as those where the skin is fused at a kink, get a quick trip to the freezer.

Culling is the only way to keep the genepool strong.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Culling is the only way to keep the genepool strong.

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well that's not true...you can also keep things alive and just not breed them
I'm not judging, but there are alternatives to culling

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Originally Posted by Blu Mongoose

My only reason for culling in any creature usually is health related. Does the defect cause suffering or health issues that affect it's chances of a normal life? That's how I decide.

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Ditto that.

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

well that's not true...you can also keep things alive and just not breed them
I'm not judging, but there are alternatives to culling

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You are correct, however, the temptation to breed a morph or pattern is tremendous when you have limited individuals expressing the desired traits.

Look at the caramels with the kinks. I don't recall the guys name who had the video of them, I am terrible with names, but if you listen to him he never says he won't ever breed them.

The temptation is too much for whatever reason. Had he culled them, there would be NO possibility of their further contributing to an already weak genepool.

Same thing for the one eyed boas. kahl sold many many siblings without disclosing that little fact. Now lots of breeders have that defective gene. The good ones cull the one eyes and breed different adults next go round.

Sterilization would work as well, but I don't know of it being done with snakes.

It's been done with Iguanas and Beardeds(they have penes too), so why not..

I wouldn't have any issue with humanely euthanizing a suffering animal because of a congenital/genetic deformity. If it affected the quality of life in that the snake could not perform everyday functions with ease(ie: breathing comfortably, constricting, eating and swallowing prey, moving about to thermoregulate, having enough mental capacity to know to thermoregulate, moving about normally and without hitting inanimate objects, passing waste normally without blockage, organs fully functioning, etc). If the animal has a defect that can be repaired, such as a hernia, then it would be repaired and the snake observed for a few years.

If the animal had a severe enough kink in it's spine that did not allow for normal, everyday function, then yes, it would be euthanized. If the snake constantly contracted respiratory infections or wasn't thriving because of depressed immune system, then that animal would be euthanized.

Was that what you were asking?

Wes, you talked about the oned eyed boas and the kinks in the caramels. So by your reasoning, say in the boas, the siblings should have been culled as well?

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Originally Posted by FloridaHogs

Wes, you talked about the oned eyed boas and the kinks in the caramels. So by your reasoning, say in the boas, the siblings should have been culled as well?

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In a perfect world, yes. However, knowing the little I do about genetics, there is a 50-50 chance that normal appearing animals do not have the genetic predisposition to throw one eyed babies. Those I would give the chance to have babies. If they then threw one eyed babies, no more breeding.

Knowing people as I do, euthanizing would be only way to gaurentee no further breeding. Adoption would have to be up to the breeder who had the gene in his stock.

Same with sibs of the kinked caramels. They may or may not have the kink gene. If they breed strong normal spined babies, all the better. If they produce kinks, same as the boas.

Same for the wobbly headed spiders. Cull the wobbly ones, the rest get stronger. I can see giving them one chance to determine if they are carriers, but why breed them when you know they are?

These are not people (and some culling amongst humans would not be out of place either) no matter how much you may feel for them. They are animals that we do everything for, including introducing and inducing them to reproduce. We are responsible. In the wild I suspect most of the wobblers and one eyed guys and kinked individuals would not make it to maturity. Why reproduce deformities?

As far as quality of life goes, there is to much anthropomorphism in the reptile world. They do NOT feel the way we do, the do NOT react the way we do. The plain and simple is, we do NOT know if they are happy or healthy when deformed. All we truly know is that they CAN survive it.

Mere survival is not all there is and we simply cannot know how these creatures feel about it.

Of course, the opposite can also be argued since we do not know how they feel.

Logic dictates that less than perfect will not survive to contribute on its own.

So, for me, I'd cull if I wasn't absolutely positive that the animal in question would NEVER be bred.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

You are correct, however, the temptation to breed a morph or pattern is tremendous when you have limited individuals expressing the desired traits.

Look at the caramels with the kinks. I don't recall the guys name who had the video of them, I am terrible with names, but if you listen to him he never says he won't ever breed them.

The temptation is too much for whatever reason. Had he culled them, there would be NO possibility of their further contributing to an already weak genepool.

Same thing for the one eyed boas. kahl sold many many siblings without disclosing that little fact. Now lots of breeders have that defective gene. The good ones cull the one eyes and breed different adults next go round.

Sterilization would work as well, but I don't know of it being done with snakes.

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What video would this be wes? Ralphs?? He said he wont breed them or sell them! They are his pets. He knows what belongs in the freezer Trust me!

Heather, I had a clutch in 04 that had I think 6 eggs. 5 came out with one eye each, hardly any bottom jaws. and wanting to feed as if they were normal ball pythons. That is why I gave them a chance. I wont make that mistake again. only the one made it.. I 'm pretty sure who and what caused it though. The dummy that kept some stuff here, took the eggs from Mom and sprayed them with water to seperate them to fit in the bin.. Spraying newly hatched eggs= Big no no!

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

What video would this be wes? Ralphs?? He said he wont breed them or sell them! They are his pets. He knows what belongs in the freezer Trust me!

Heather, I had a clutch in 04 that had I think 6 eggs. 5 came out with one eye each, hardly any bottom jaws. and wanting to feed as if they were normal ball pythons. That is why I gave them a chance. I wont make that mistake again. only the one made it.. I 'm pretty sure who and what caused it though. The dummy that kept some stuff here, took the eggs from Mom and sprayed them with water to seperate them to fit in the bin.. Spraying newly hatched eggs= Big no no!

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It might have been ralph. But didn't he say that he THOUGHT he would never breed them or something like he had no INTENTION of breeding them? I may be wrong but I don't recall a definitive statement about never breeding them. At least not in that video.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

It might have been ralph. But didn't he say that he THOUGHT he would never breed them or something like he had no INTENTION of breeding them? I may be wrong but I don't recall a definitive statement about never breeding them. At least not in that video.

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CALL HIM if you doubt HIM!

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Look at the caramels with the kinks. I don't recall the guys name who had the video of them, I am terrible with names, but if you listen to him he never says he won't ever breed them.

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Was it Ralph Davis' video you saw? He had one recently (in the last two weeks) that he posted with two males with kinks that he kept.

Edit - slow with the post! LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baquu5GYyVA

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Same for the wobbly headed spiders. Cull the wobbly ones, the rest get stronger. I can see giving them one chance to determine if they are carriers, but why breed them when you know they are?

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There are some who would argue that ALL spiders spin to some degree. Some have a very subtle wobble - and some are trainwrecks.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

In a perfect world, yes. However, knowing the little I do about genetics, there is a 50-50 chance that normal appearing animals do not have the genetic predisposition to throw one eyed babies. Those I would give the chance to have babies. If they then threw one eyed babies, no more breeding.

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So going by this thought process, the parents would have to be culled because you know they are carriers?

Or just not be bred.

It is possible to breed out certain bad genes, I have no idea whether or not one eyed is inherited or environmental, but anything is possible.

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Originally Posted by FloridaHogs

So going by this thought process, the parents would have to be culled because you know they are carriers?

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Carried out the the Nth degree, yes. Or sterilized. If you want a clean genepool, you must prevent contaminants from entering.

Remember, we are speaking in generalities here, not trying to force one point of view upon anyone else.

What I do may not be what you do. What you do may not be what I do. Opinions will vary.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Or just not be bred.

It is possible to breed out certain bad genes, I have no idea whether or not one eyed is inherited or environmental, but anything is possible.

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It's been proven genetic. The environmental angle was thrown out there when the first ones showed up and people tried to market them as being squished by the mother, having had surgery, improper incubation.....

The bottom line is, some of the first couple of generations of albino boas are prone to one eyed babies.

You can breed it out, sort of, by bringing in non albino blood and producing hets and possible hets then breeding them to get "healthy" albinos which you can then breed to other hets and possible hets.

The thing is, when albinos first came out, each snake was worth thousands of dollars. That's a lot of temptation that some could not pass up.

Since they couldn't pass up said temptation, that gene is more prevalent than had they culled.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Carried out the the Nth degree, yes. Or sterilized. If you want a clean genepool, you must prevent contaminants from entering.

Remember, we are speaking in generalities here, not trying to force one point of view upon anyone else.

What I do may not be what you do. What you do may not be what I do. Opinions will vary.

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Wes, If you read my post I said I think I know what happened. Would you give her another chance or just end it with the first clutch that came out like that? I did breed her again and got a few Real nice snakes, With none having any problems. Just asking for your opinion here..

This is a sad topic I couldn't/wouldn't. It would be very difficult for me. But I guess I understand it has to be done in some situations. Still very sad though. :(

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Wes, If you read my post I said I think I know what happened. Would you give her another chance or just end it with the first clutch that came out like that? I did breed her again and got a few Real nice snakes, With none having any problems. Just asking for your opinion here..

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If I had any doubt about genetics being the sole cause of deformities I'd breed the animals again.

I would cull the defects though if I could not find homes where I was sure they would never be bred and we all know how hard that is.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Same for the wobbly headed spiders. Cull the wobbly ones, the rest get stronger. I can see giving them one chance to determine if they are carriers, but why breed them when you know they are?

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Hows that going to work when normal non wobbly headed spiders can produce wobbly headed spiders. Same with the spinning. Its been said by lots of people that breed spiders. They dont know why, but normal spider can produce messed up ones. Then messed up ones can produce normal spiders.

As far as how to cull, I've read in a few 'research animal protocall' papers that talk about humane culling. Cleanly breaking the neck, gassing with cO2 or euthenasia are scientifically the only proven "painless" methods for culling any verterbrate. And snakes are not good to gas because of how long they can hold their breath for. I've read that freezing them is supposed to be cruel and inhumane because no one has any idea if they can feel it.
Regarding the kinked albinos, are they born kinked? I really like the look of them, but the idea of buying one as a baby only to have it develop a kink sounds awful.

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Originally Posted by darkbloodwyvern

As far as how to cull, I've read in a few 'research animal protocall' papers that talk about humane culling. Cleanly breaking the neck, gassing with cO2 or euthenasia are scientifically the only proven "painless" methods for culling any verterbrate. And snakes are not good to gas because of how long they can hold their breath for. I've read that freezing them is supposed to be cruel and inhumane because no one has any idea if they can feel it.
Regarding the kinked albinos, are they born kinked? I really like the look of them, but the idea of buying one as a baby only to have it develop a kink sounds awful.

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I have never heard of one that developed a kink. They are born with the kinks, and even very minor kinks can be felt as sson as they hatch. We run our fingers down the spine of every snake that we hatch, to ensure that there are no verticl or lateral kinks present. I pay special attention to any animals that we hatch that are related to Caramel Albinos (i.e. Caramels, Hets, poss. Hets or Double Hets of any kind). I have never sold an animal with a kink, but I do have a female caramel that has an almost unnoticeable lateral kink about 1/4 inch from her tail tip. Hopefully in about 2 years, I'll be able to see if she passes it on to her offspring. She will be bred to a Caramel male from a different line than what lines she is carrying. This will help determine if outcrossing helps any.

Also, I personally don't believe that it has been proven that kinking in Caramels is genetic, as I have heard many opinions about the kinking being a developemental issue during incubation, caused by a few different factors. But, that is a whole other topic.

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Originally Posted by darkbloodwyvern

As far as how to cull, I've read in a few 'research animal protocall' papers that talk about humane culling. Cleanly breaking the neck, gassing with cO2 or euthenasia are scientifically the only proven "painless" methods for culling any verterbrate. And snakes are not good to gas because of how long they can hold their breath for. I've read that freezing them is supposed to be cruel and inhumane because no one has any idea if they can feel it.

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I've heard that too. I've also heard that you should put them in the refrigerator first for a few hours. So that their systems "shut down" like in brumation. Then put them in the freezer after the frig.
Anyone do that?

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Originally Posted by muddoc

Also, I personally don't believe that it has been proven that kinking in Caramels is genetic, as I have heard many opinions about the kinking being a developemental issue during incubation, caused by a few different factors. But, that is a whole other topic.

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I guess that's what I personally don't understand, Tim - if it's a trait that's seen more often in Caramels (just assuming now - since I don't know this to be fact, but they are the ones most often mentioned with this condition - and I know other can get it too), why wouldn't incubation affect other morphs with the same frequency?

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I guess that's what I personally don't understand, Tim - if it's a trait that's seen more often in Caramels (just assuming now - since I don't know this to be fact, but they are the ones most often mentioned with this condition - and I know other can get it too), why wouldn't incubation affect other morphs with the same frequency?

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I wasn't intending on going into it, because it does stray from the original topic, but since someone asked, I will relay a conversation that I had with another breeder. I don't know how easy it would be to determine if this was a real issue or not, but it does make some sense to me. We were discussing the common practice of incubating Caramel and Het Caramel eggs drier than normal incubation of Ball Python eggs. I told him that since I did that with my Het x Het clutch last year, and still hatched on animal with a slight kink, that I didn't know if I would continue the practice this year, as I wanted to see what would happen with a normal "wetness". His thinking was that kinking isn't necessarily gentically inhereted, but that Caramels ( i do not include Hets, because to my knowledge, kinking hasn't been a problem in Hets, that I have heard of) have week spines. As a potential result of having week spines, if you were too incubate with a wetter substrate, the eggs stay plump throuought incubation. If you incubate drier, the eggs stay slightly dimpled during incubation (this is a fine line between to dry, and potentially dehydrating the eggs, and drier than normal, leaving them slighty dented). How does this affect kinking, you ask. Well, if the eggs stay plump, then there is more internal pressure in the egg during incubation, which puts more stress on the suppossed week spine, than if the eggs are slightly dimpled. By incubating drier, you could potentially reduce the internal egg pressure, and thus apply less pressure to the spine of the developing snake.

Now, I guess the only way to really test this theory would be to somehow measure the internal egg pressure during incubation. However, that would involve some pretty expensive equipment that I don't own, so I'll just buy into the theory, and incubate the Caramel project animals slightly drier.

I hope that gave some food for thought,

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Originally Posted by rabernet

why wouldn't incubation affect other morphs with the same frequency?

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We do know that dehydrated eggs can cause hyper-melaninsam from time to time. But in truth we don't know that certain morphs don't also carry an inherit trait that causes physical defects. Like the kinking in caramels or wobbleing is spiders. If these issues are caused on the developmental stage due to the embryo's inability to properly absorb certain vitamins or produce certain amino acids that aid in RNA decoding it is possible since all reptilian function depends on the absorption of environmental heat then the increase in incubation may help in the development of those weak areas in the animals genetic disposition. Again we don't know that its not inherit from what the parents pass on to the offspring so it may be that an increase or decrease of certain factors in the mother or father help balance what is causing the issues.

Hope I didn't confuse

Each decision is on a case by case basis. I don't believe that most defects are caused by weak genetics, but by incubation problems. Some are due to genetic problems, but I think they are more the exception then the rule. This past year I produced a kinked bairds rat snake. I've produced dozens and dozens of healthy bairds from this same 1.2 trio of adults over several years and have never had a problem, now that I produced one kinked snake I'm expected to euthanize it (along with it's siblings) because it may have bad genetics? Baloney.... I still have it, I'm raising it up, it's eating and pooping and shedding just fine. Once it gets big enough, I'll probably give it away to some kid who wants a pet snake. I have euthanized snakes in the past that were obviously not going to make it. Some with really severe kinks, body fused together, born with only half a jaw, etc.... Those end up in the freezer. But mild kinks that don't affect the way they live? No. I'm more likely to euthanize non-feeding runts that just waste away to nothing despite my best efforts at getting them to feed.

Mark

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Originally Posted by wilomn

In a perfect world, yes. However, knowing the little I do about genetics, there is a 50-50 chance that normal appearing animals do not have the genetic predisposition to throw one eyed babies. Those I would give the chance to have babies. If they then threw one eyed babies, no more breeding.

Knowing people as I do, euthanizing would be only way to gaurentee no further breeding. Adoption would have to be up to the breeder who had the gene in his stock.

Same with sibs of the kinked caramels. They may or may not have the kink gene. If they breed strong normal spined babies, all the better. If they produce kinks, same as the boas.

Same for the wobbly headed spiders. Cull the wobbly ones, the rest get stronger. I can see giving them one chance to determine if they are carriers, but why breed them when you know they are?

These are not people (and some culling amongst humans would not be out of place either) no matter how much you may feel for them. They are animals that we do everything for, including introducing and inducing them to reproduce. We are responsible. In the wild I suspect most of the wobblers and one eyed guys and kinked individuals would not make it to maturity. Why reproduce deformities?

As far as quality of life goes, there is to much anthropomorphism in the reptile world. They do NOT feel the way we do, the do NOT react the way we do. The plain and simple is, we do NOT know if they are happy or healthy when deformed. All we truly know is that they CAN survive it.

Mere survival is not all there is and we simply cannot know how these creatures feel about it.

Of course, the opposite can also be argued since we do not know how they feel.

Logic dictates that less than perfect will not survive to contribute on its own.

So, for me, I'd cull if I wasn't absolutely positive that the animal in question would NEVER be bred.

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So you'd also cull all albinos and het for albinos?

He's speaking of albino boas, who have been known to have missing eyes.

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

He's speaking of albino boas, who have been known to have missing eyes.

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Yeah, I was just talking about albinism in general which makes it very hard to survive in the wilderness. And since he said something about how anything that was less than perfect wouldn't survive, I was wondering if that included all albinos. I'm sure many of the other morphs also have problems surviving in the wild- I just happen to know that albinos of pretty much all species are at a serious disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by snakelady

I've heard that too. I've also heard that you should put them in the refrigerator first for a few hours. So that their systems "shut down" like in brumation. Then put them in the freezer after the frig.
Anyone do that?

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From the discussions I've had with reptile vets, freezing is NOT a humane way to euthanise reptiles. If I needed to put any down, I'd work out a deal with my vet to give them an overdose of anesthetic. To me, it's the only humane way for any animal, mammal or reptile.

I, personally, have no trouble with culling animals that are not healthy or would not live a comfortable life.

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

Yeah, I was just talking about albinism in general which makes it very hard to survive in the wilderness. And since he said something about how anything that was less than perfect wouldn't survive, I was wondering if that included all albinos. I'm sure many of the other morphs also have problems surviving in the wild- I just happen to know that albinos of pretty much all species are at a serious disadvantage.

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I think the difference here is that albinism is a color issue not really a physical deformity. If the snake were an albino in the wild, then yes I would see what your saying as the snake would have a hard time hunting with its natural camouflage gone, but this doesn't apply in a captivity setting.

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

Yeah, I was just talking about albinism in general which makes it very hard to survive in the wilderness. And since he said something about how anything that was less than perfect wouldn't survive, I was wondering if that included all albinos. I'm sure many of the other morphs also have problems surviving in the wild- I just happen to know that albinos of pretty much all species are at a serious disadvantage.

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Albinos of diurnal species are at a disadvantage. Not so much nocturnal, since they generally are not outside during the day.

I think it was a thread here talking about how animals requiring UV light usually do not survive because too little or too much UV will kill them.

If that were the case, the animal needed specialized care because of a trait that robs them from living a normal life in respects to other animals of the same species, then yes, cull...

However, BP's are nocturnal and do not require UV lighting, so this trait in captivity does not hurt them from living a normal life, probably as much as it does in the wild. At this point, it is all just mere speculation how albino BP's get along in the wild.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

I think the difference here is that albinism is a color issue not really a physical deformity. If the snake were an albino in the wild, then yes I would see what your saying as the snake would have a hard time hunting with its natural camouflage gone, but this doesn't apply in a captivity setting.

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I agree, but I'm not the one saying we should cull animals because they wouldn't survive in the wild

Unfortunately when you have bred many animals you are gonna run into a deformity or condition that may be a painful existence which eventually ends up in slow death. many times we try to save or rescue the hatchling only to see it suffer. When you have gone through this process you start to learn that culling is sometimes the right thing to do. Nature would have never allowed this creature to last very long.

As handlers or breeders I think this is not cut and dry and it is obviously a very personel decision.

As far as albinos or any bright morph, they have survived for millions of years most likely because as mentioned they are nocturnal and would spend most of there lives in a hole somewhere. I think thats why so many variations have survived as opposed to other snakes that are cruising through forests or jungles where camoflauge affects survival on a constant basis.

I use CO2 to prekill my rats and if I needed to cull an animal I would probably do the same thing.

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

Unfortunately when you have bred many animals you are gonna run into a deformity or condition that may be a painful existence which eventually ends up in slow death. many times we try to save or rescue the hatchling only to see it suffer. When you have gone through this process you start to learn that culling is sometimes the right thing to do. Nature would have never allowed this creature to last very long.

As handlers or breeders I think this is not cut and dry and it is obviously a very personel decision.

As far as albinos or any bright morph, they have survived for millions of years most likely because as mentioned they are nocturnal and would spend most of there lives in a hole somewhere. I think thats why so many variations have survived as opposed to other snakes that are cruising through forests or jungles where camoflauge affects survival on a constant basis.

I use CO2 to prekill my rats and if I needed to cull an animal I would probably do the same thing.

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it's sad but true. If i may anthromorphize nature, she has pretty much unlimited resources and no need or want to "allow" anything to survive. If a ball dies, some other animal will take over it's den and rat eating habits. If we are going to keep the pets we have healthy, they need to be pretty sound genetically because we don't have natural processes eliminating the genes that cause extreme deformities. If i get a baby that is not breedable but survives it's deformity in a way that seems healthy I am happy to keep it for the rest of its life. Otherwise, euthenasia is the best way to prevent it from passing on faulty genes. That is, assuming the genes are responsible for the deformity rather than bad husbandry :(

i think that once i get into breeding ( in two to three years, hopefully!) if i hatch a baby that is deformed, i would then try to see what its deformities are (taking to vet to see if there is anything wrong internally as well as externally) and if the baby wouldnt be able to live a comfy life, i would have the vet put it down. now if the snake would be able to live relatively comfortably, i WOULD keep it. no matter how much more effort it would take to care for it. just my two cents though. bottom line, if its deformed but can live comfy, no culling or breeding.

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

Yeah, I was just talking about albinism in general which makes it very hard to survive in the wilderness. And since he said something about how anything that was less than perfect wouldn't survive, I was wondering if that included all albinos. I'm sure many of the other morphs also have problems surviving in the wild- I just happen to know that albinos of pretty much all species are at a serious disadvantage.

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Normally i would agree with this, as albinos stand out and would be targets for predators. However, ball pythons rarely are out during daylight hours in the wild, and are mostly nocturnal. That right there is why albinos, pieds, and other insanely bright colored ball pythons are able to survive in the wild.

I think he was more referring to physical deformities rather than phenotype traits.

Robin