How do you know...?

Hey all! Since I know how much ya'll like answering questions for newbies... I got another one for ya.

I read all these threads talking about morphs :confused: ... How can you tell what's what? I really want to learn, bit I guess I just don't get it. Maybe I don't have enuff brains cells left to hold all the required info :rolleye2: .

I'm almost positive I have 2 normals - just by the price I paid at the reptile show. I saw some BPs that cost as much as my car!!!!! :O

So, anywho... Spider? Cinnamon? Mojave? How can you tell? Is it their markings? And whats a Het? :confused:

Here check this out

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...ollection.html

And a Het means it carries one half of the genetic code needed to produce a visual mutation

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Here check this out

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...ollection.html

And a Het means it carries one half of the genetic code needed to produce a visual mutation

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Holy crap!!! I didn't realize that there are so many different kinds of BPs! OMG!

Thanks for the reply - I'm gonna bookmark that!

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

And a Het means it carries one half of the genetic code needed to produce a visual mutation

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One more thing...

Is it possible for my normals to be Het? Or this is probably something the breeder would have told me at the show?

:confused: ahhhh!!!! So many questions!

Anything is possible~ though perhaps not probable. HOWEVER, if you look through the pictures on this forum, you will see amazingly gorgeous normal-type royal pythons. Just beautiful!! Do you have pictures of yours??? We love pictures!!! :D

It is something they would have told you at the show. However I Know more than one breeder that will sell poss hets as normals just to get rid of them. Thats how Adam Produced the second Albino Pin in the world by sheer dumb luck. So is it possible Yea is it probable no

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Originally Posted by lenastorms

Holy crap!!! I didn't realize that there are so many different kinds of BPs! OMG!

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There are even more than that, they are just not all listed ;)

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Originally Posted by starmom

Do you have pictures of yours??? We love pictures!!! :D

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I did upload some of the baby (not the best quality cuz my camera is old) - how do I post them here???

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Originally Posted by lenastorms

So, anywho... Spider? Cinnamon? Mojave? How can you tell? Is it their markings? And whats a Het? :confused:

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Different morphs are recognized by their color and/or pattern. Spider is (mostly) a pattern morph, meaning it has the usual colors of a normal BP, but the pattern is different. A really easy pattern morph to start to understand it, is the genetic stripe. Although apparently there can be striped snakes that aren't genetic, but it gives you the idea what is meant by pattern.

Cinnamon and Mojave are (mostly) color morphs. The most obvious color morph is the albino. The pattern on a albino BP is exactly the same as on a normal, with the alien heads and all that, but the color is very different.

Some morphs, like albino, are super easy to recognize. Many of them are more subtle, but become easy to recognize by looking at lots of pictures and seeing snakes in person at reptiles shows and such. It just takes time to learn them all.

Het is short for heterozygous. It is a genetic term. You probably know that genes come in pairs. Het means that in a particular pair of genes, there are 2 different ones. For example, one is normal and one is the gene for albino. In talking about BPs, people usually use het to mean a snake is het for one of the recessive traits, and the result is that the snake appears normal, but carries the genetics to produce that recessive trait.

Technically, a mojave (and many other BP morphs) is het. If a snake had 2 mojave genes, it wouldn't appear mojave anymore, it appears leucistic. But usually BP people won't use the term het when talking about co-dom morphs.

but you have a morph in your avatar :P

I would also recommend the sticky threads here: http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/f...splay.php?f=64
The Hunters guide explains how you can tell the different types apart. So what to look for when looking at different kinds of snakes.
I know I was TOTALLY lost when I first started posting here a month or so ago, but now I can recognize most of the more common morphs. So you'll get there!

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

but you have a morph in your avatar :P

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I know... Didn't know what it was till yesterday. That's whats cool - I learn something new every time I come here. LOVE IT!!!

I would love to have a luecistic (SPELLING?) - then I saw how much they go for :O. They are BEAUTIFUL!!!!

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Originally Posted by lenastorms

I know... Didn't know what it was till yesterday. That's whats cool - I learn something new every time I come here. LOVE IT!!!

I would love to have a luecistic (SPELLING?) - then I saw how much they go for :O. They are BEAUTIFUL!!!!

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you just need a couple of mojaves to make your own ;)
They are really beautiful!

If you're really interested on learning about these animals you should consider buying the book from VPI or NERD. They're a little pricey for a book but the amount of information contained inside is priceless. (Not to mention all the great pics :))

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

And a Het means it carries one half of the genetic code needed to produce a visual mutation

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Why does this definition keep getting posted over and over when it's been shown not to be true an equal number of times?

Heterozygous means you carry one normal and one active allele for a particular gene. Dominant and Co-dominant genes both produce visible mutations in their heterozygous form.

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Originally Posted by ctrlfreq

Dominant and Co-dominant genes both produce visible mutations in their heterozygous form.

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Correct but they still only carry one copy of a gene needed to make a visual mutation different than the base gene..

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Correct but they still only carry one copy of a gene needed to make a visual mutation different than the base gene..

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Yes, "one copy of", and not "half required to produce".

The difference is one of "a pastel is a het" vs. "there are no het pastels". The second statement is a widely held belief, even though the first is the accurate statement, simply because people are led to believe that "het" equals "looks normal".

CtrlFreq Am I following this right...

What you're saying is any co-dom trait is het for the super form?

So we could if we wanted to call regular pastels "Het for Super Pastel"?

It's always a word game isn't it we try and keep it simple for beginers to undrstand..I said.

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And a Het means it carries one half of the genetic code needed to produce a visual mutation

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Which is true last time I checked all super forms of co-dom animals are visual mutations. And since it takes 2 copys of the genetic code to produce if an animal only has one copy then by my math that that animal has HALF the genetic code needed to create a visual mutation. If it took three the animal would carry 1/3rd. So you can't make a super codom or visual recessive with out both HALVES or COPYS of the genetic code. The difference is that the het form of any co-dom is visualy expressed where as recessives are repressed visualy in there het form by the wild type genes.

So in truth Pastels are Het Super pastels, YB's are Het Ivories, Het Reds, Het Russos', all are visual co-dominate mutation that carry one half of the genetic code needed to produce a visual mutation.

Holy crap people

Recessive= 2 copies of the same allele needed to create the phenotype (expression). 1 copy is called a "het" and appears normal.

Co-Domiant= Partially expressed phenotype when only one allele present. Full expression when both copies are present. (pastel as an example is only partially expressed, and a super is the full expression of the pastel gene)

Dominant= Fully expressed when only one allele present. (dont matter if it has one or 2 copies, it's fully expressed)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Co-Domiant= Partially expressed phenotype when only one allele present. Full expression when both copies are present. (pastel as an example is only partially expressed, and a super is the full expression of the pastel gene)

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But yellowbellies are often called het ivories
maybe it's just because it's a (MUCH) less obvious mutation than the other het co-doms

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

CtrlFreq Am I following this right...

What you're saying is any co-dom trait is het for the super form?

So we could if we wanted to call regular pastels "Het for Super Pastel"?

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Technically that is correct, yes. Properly, a pastel has a heterozygous allele pair for the pastel gene, and a super pastel has a homozygous allele pair for the pastel gene.

The problem with ball python naming in general is that the morphs are named after the visual representation. Since the heterozygous forms of co-dominant and dominant traits are usually found long before the homozygous version, the hets get named one thing, and the homozygous versions another (ie. Fire/Black Eyed Leucistic, Mojave/Blue Eyed Leucistic, and so on).

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

But yellowbellies are often called het ivories
maybe it's just because it's a (MUCH) less obvious mutation than the other het co-doms

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Yes...... :confused: Did you mean to quote me?

Baby Steps...if you start telling someone who has no idea about genetics..."Heterozygous means you carry one normal and one active allele for a particular gene. Dominant and Co-dominant genes both produce visible mutations in their heterozygous form."...it will simply go right over their head.

It's easier for me and others to grasp the little words :) Later on when I feel like studying deeper in to the more technical genetic terms and how they work, then I will keep it in my own mind unless i'm talking to someone who is on the same level and understands genetics the way i do.

but when someone wants to know what a het is, I just give them an answer they might be able to grasp. If they're really that interested and want to learn more, then I'm sure they will :) :gj:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

It's always a word game isn't it we try and keep it simple for beginers to undrstand...

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There is a difference between simple and confused. Simple would be pointing out that there are two separate and distinct ideas to understand - gene nature (recessive, co-dominant, and dominant) and gene pairing (normal, heterozygous, and homozygous).

Instead most people are taught genetics as a mash-up of the two concepts, and so beginners are often in the weeds for much longer than they should be.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Which is true last time I checked all super forms of co-dom animals are visual mutations.

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That is true.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

And since it takes 2 copys of the genetic code to produce if an animal only has one copy

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This is not correct, and an example of exactly what I'm talking about. It only takes 1 copy of the code to produce a visual mutation when the gene in question is either co-dominant or dominant by nature.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

So you can't make a super codom or visual recessive with out both HALVES or COPYS of the genetic code.

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That was never the argument. The point is you CAN have a visual morph without having both "HALVES" when the gene is not recessive, a concept that most beginners, and apparently a good number of non-beginners have trouble grasping.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

So in truth Pastels are Het Super pastels, YB's are Het Ivories, Het Reds, Het Russos', all are visual co-dominate mutation that carry one half of the genetic code needed to produce a visual mutation.

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Except they are themselves, in their heterozygous forms, visual mutated animals, which is why they've been distinguished as morphs.

the fact is....heterozygous ONLY means that the two alleles present are not the same. It doesn't matter what the two alleles are, as long as they're different. It doesn't matter if one is simple recessive and the other is dominant, or if it's more complex than that. "hetero-" means different and "homo-" means the same (think heterosexual, homogenized, homophone, etc...)

HOWEVER..."het" (not "heterozygous") in the snake community pretty much does mean "normal with 1 allele for a recessive trait" because there's generally a name already for the heterozygous co-doms, and there's no distinction for the heterozygous vs. homozygous forms of the dominant traits. I don't think it's that bad to tell someone that hets are normal that carry a gene for a recessive trait. Especially if you then link them to some place to learn more of the details.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Yes...... :confused: Did you mean to quote me?

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well yeah, because you said a het is a carrier for a recessive trait, and that's not always true

LOLOL, this OP will just be all the more confused now hahahaha

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

well yeah, because you said a het is a carrier for a recessive trait, and that's not always true

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In the terms for genetics it is. Do you have an example maybe?

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This is not correct, and an example of exactly what I'm talking about. It only takes 1 copy of the code to produce a visual mutation when the gene in question is either co-dominant or dominant by nature.

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But since 99.995% of all animals labeled as hets are recessive morphs. Then to keep it simple would it be simpler to say that a "Het" carries one half the genetic code needed to created a visual mutation. Instead of trying to confuse people by pointing out that technically a het can be a visual mutation?

Ok so I had right in my head. It gets confusing with all the different wording that gets thrown around...I was second guessing myself.

Edit: I've never had a problem with understanding genetics. Me and my punnit squares do fine to figure out % of outcomes. But once you get into explaining it to someone else it becomes a bit confusing.

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Originally Posted by nathanledet

Baby Steps...if you start telling someone who has no idea about genetics ... it will simply go right over their head.

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I agree, but the concepts here are not overly complex when taught separately, and there is, and should be, a very distinct separation between the two.

It's like the constant "what would this make" threads that pop up, in which signal is largely overwhelmed by the noise of people who can't remember whether a super pastel mixed with a spider can make killer bees or not, and are unable to draw out the punnett square to check what they're claiming to be the possible offspring.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

If you're really interested on learning about these animals you should consider buying the book from VPI or NERD. They're a little pricey for a book but the amount of information contained inside is priceless. (Not to mention all the great pics :))

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I will definitely look in to it. The ones that are keepers always are a little more pricey.

Information is what I'm craving - so these books seem to be up my alley!

Thanks!!!!!

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

In the terms for genetics it is. Do you have an example maybe?

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well...the one I said when I quoted you....a "het ivory"

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

OIt gets confusing with all the different wording that gets thrown around...I was second guessing myself.

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which was why I was trying to keep it simple. You start taking Phenol type and allele new comers who have no genetic background find it easier to have a 1 + 1 = 2 answer and grow from there.

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

well...the one I said when I quoted you....a "het ivory"

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Yellow belly is a co-dominant trait. Partially expressed when only 1 copy of the gene is present. Fully expressed as an ivory when there are 2 copies.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Then to keep it simple would it be simpler to say that a "Het" carries one half the genetic code needed to created a visual mutation. Instead of trying to confuse people by pointing out that technically a het can be a visual mutation?

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Sure, it's easier, and in addition to the confusion it causes, it also provides the benefit of allowing neophytes to be exploited on a regular basis by people passing off normals as het-for-random-co-dominant-trait for hundreds of dollars.

I say just teach it correctly the first time.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

which was why I was trying to keep it simple. You start taking Phenol type and allele new comers who have no genetic background find it easier to have a 1 + 1 = 2 answer and grow from there.

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:D
You think Benzenol maybe...or carbolic acid?
sorry...."phenol type"...I'm a jerk when it comes to science...:P

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Yellow belly is a co-dominant trait. Partially expressed when only 1 copy of the gene is present. Fully expressed as an ivory when there are 2 copies.

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exactly.
but it's often called "het ivory" anyway

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

exactly.
but it's often called "het ivory" anyway

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Soooo, where's the argument? You just agreed with my original post! :P lol

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

well yeah, because you said a het is a carrier for a recessive trait, and that's not always true

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Het only means there is ONE copy of an allele. No more, no less.
Homo means there are 2 alleles....

Maybe thats what your confused about?

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

:D
You think Benzenol maybe...or carbolic acid?
sorry...."phenol type"...I'm a jerk when it comes to science...:P

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:bow::bow::bow:

Yea stupid auto spell check..

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Soooo, where's the argument? You just agreed with my original post! :P lol

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No, your original post said hets are carriers for recessive traits, when it could be a carrier of any type of trait (recessive, co-dom, or dominant).

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Originally Posted by ctrlfreq

No, your original post said hets are carriers for recessive traits, when it could be a carrier of any type of trait (recessive, co-dom, or dominant).

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You mean this? That's a het, when there is only one copy!

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Holy crap people

Recessive= 2 copies of the same allele needed to create the phenotype (expression). 1 copy is called a "het" and appears normal.

Co-Domiant= Partially expressed phenotype when only one allele present. Full expression when both copies are present. (pastel as an example is only partially expressed, and a super is the full expression of the pastel gene)

Dominant= Fully expressed when only one allele present. (dont matter if it has one or 2 copies, it's fully expressed)

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Your really starting to nit pick about the terms were using. In the BALL PYTHON HOBBY, when something is labeled "HET", we mean for a recessive trait.

You know that, so why are you making this so difficult????

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

You mean this? That's a het, when there is only one copy!

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Yes, but the comment was towards the "het" only being referenced when the gene is recessive. Any gene can be in a heterozygous arrangement, regardless of it's nature, and thus be a "het".

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Your really starting to nit pick about the terms were using. In the BALL PYTHON HOBBY, when something is labeled "HET", we mean for a recessive trait.

You know that, so why are you making this so difficult????

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Short answer, because it's wrong, confusing, and it is the cause for the exploitation of many new-comers.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Soooo, where's the argument? You just agreed with my original post! :P lol

Het only means there is ONE copy of an allele. No more, no less.
Homo means there are 2 alleles....

Maybe thats what your confused about?

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no...I'm not confused, you clearly are. In your original post, you distinguished between co-dominant and recessive, which is accurate. However, you said that hets are carriers for a *recessive* trait. I pointed that out, and you agreed with that point again, even though yellowbelly/ivory is co-dom, as you said. Therefore, a yellowbelly, often called a "het ivory" is an example of a "het" that isn't a carrier of a recessive trait. It's a carrier of a super co-dom trait.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

:bow::bow::bow:

Yea stupid auto spell check..

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haha yeah I've had that one get me too!

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Originally Posted by ctrlfreq

Yes, but the comment was towards the "het" only being referenced when the gene is recessive. Any gene can be in a heterozygous arrangement, regardless of it's nature, and thus be a "het".

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Yea, DUH! Sorry I didnt spell it out for the other 2 descriptions. But that doesnt make what I said at all wrong! I just didn't expand to the full amount that you wanted. I thought it was pretty obvious.

Again, why are you so damn picky today? In every thread.... damn

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Your really starting to nit pick about the terms were using. In the BALL PYTHON HOBBY, when something is labeled "HET", we mean for a recessive trait.

You know that, so why are you making this so difficult????

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Then what about the yellowbelly??
His point is exactly that it doesn't matter for him, because he *does* know, but plenty of the people here asking questions DON'T know. That's why they're asking!
That's why if you say "het means it carries one copy of the gene needed to make a morph" then it will confuse them when they're going to look for a het spider or pastel

Recessive traits are only expressed when 2 copies of the allele are present. (is that ok?)

Co-dom is expressed in 2 different ways. If 1 copy is present, it is only partially expressed. When both copie are present, it has full expression.

Dominant is expressed both when there is one copy or two copies present.'

Heterozygous means there is only one copy of an allele.
Homozygous means there are 2 copies of the allele.

Is that what you wanted? Did I make you happy?

Ed,

I get what your saying keeping it simple for the beginners but then I also see the point CtrlFreq is trying to make. I guess in the end it comes down to the person seeking the knowledge. I'd rather have a harder time understanding something and know that when I do finally understand it that I fully "understand it". In the end the punnit square will always be my best friend, its just nice to know whats going on in each of those boxes...