Absolutes in Reptile Care

I thought this would be a great discussion for an 'advanced' forum.

I am not a believer in absolutes when reptile care is concerned. Each situation is different, each keeper is different, and each reptile is different. How can there be absolutes with so many differences?

To me, many fixed ideas concerning reptile care originate from how information is given to beginning keepers.

The same recommendations are made to beginning keepers in order to keep things simple. The last thing you want to do is confuse a beginner with advanced concepts right off the bat. So we say things in absolutes....

1. Do not house snakes together unless they are breeding
2. Do not house different species together
3. Tubs are best for snakes
4. Do not breed young animals
5. Fast growth is good
6. Feed snakes weekly
7. Feeding f/t has less risk than feeding live
8. CBB is better than CH

Just to name a few...

...and I could go on and on about these comments that are sometimes spoken(typed) as if they are strict rules to follow.

While those statements were initially give as just general guidelines to beginning keepers.......they somehow became engrained as fact and instead of being repeated as a guideline....The statements are repeated as fact or absolute by some people.

Do not house snakes together unless they are breeding. Very general statement. So many variables.....what size is the enclosure, what type of environment is going to be provided, what is the age, sex, size, and health of the snakes, what kind of experience does the keeper have, how many basking areas, how will the snakes be fed, what will they be fed, etc.

Everything is in the details.....nothing is absolute, so why speak as if the statement is written in stone? It goes beyond just snakes....it happens with tons of other reptiles.

Do not keep bearded dragons on sand. Very general statement. So many variables....what is the grain size of the sand, is it manufactured or natural, what are the shape of the grains, is it 100% sand or is it a sandy loam, is the bearded well hydrated, moisture content of the soil, etc.

Everything is in the details.

The number of fixed ideas concerning reptiles seems to be growing constantly. My opinion is this lack of exploration (i.e. developing new ideas instead of using the guidelines already there) has to do with a blind focus on morphs and breeding....and lack of any attention to natural history and natural environments.

How many keepers have seen a picture of a bumblebee ball python, but have never seen a picture of a ball python's native environment?

How many keepers preach about keeping animals seperate, but have never seen reptiles of different species sitting right next to each other in the wild?

How many people say to keep beardies off sand, but have never read books describing bearded dragon burrows in the red sandy loam of Australia?

How many people say to keep an enclosure at two set temperatures and one constant humidity, but have never seen a basking snake on a dry, hot day retreat under a rotten log to feel the cool, dampness beneath once the temperatures get too warm?

There is so much to learn about reptiles. No absolutes.

I just wanted to have a little rant to tell everyone....

Do not limit yourself. Do not settle for something that works well, find something that works better. Make it a point to learn something everyday....and try to avoid speaking absolutes when discussing reptiles.

Absolutes:

Feed your animal
Give water to your animal
Don't try and kill your animal
Protect your animal


There are some out there :)

Great post- and it applies to dogs, cats, snakes, birds, lizards, and parenting... and just about everything in life IMO

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Absolutes:

Feed your animal
Give water to your animal
Don't try and kill your animal
Protect your animal

There are some out there :)

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But it is all in the details....

Feed your animal what, feed it how, feed it when, feed it where?

The basic needs to maintain life are absolute........the ways in which those needs are met are not ;)

I am not a believer in absolutes either, however the fact is most beginners how overwhelmed by very simple things and some barely grasp the concept of proper husbandry.

I think the responsibility of more experienced keepers is to provide safe guidance to beginners until they understand the basics, have more experience and gain the confidence to experiment things on their own and see what work for THEM.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I think the responsibility of more experienced keepers is to provide safe guidance to beginners until they understand the basics, have more experience and gain the confidence to experiment things on their own and see what work for THEM.

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Agreed. What I disagree with is the way things are stated.

"Never house snakes together" and "I recommend that you keep the snakes seperate until you get more experience" are two completely different comments.

When absolutes like 'never' or 'always' are thrown into the statement. It creates a false fact in the mind of the person receiving the advice.

I find it difficult as it is to recommend certain things to new keepers, like the 1 snake 1 cage rule.

While I think the wording is NOT unimportant, I think the urgency of such ground notions on husbandry do need to be communicated effectively.

While they questions us "Why cant I keep my 2 snakes together?", we usually always give a long list of reasons. Afterwards they say, "I'm going to keep them together, I don't have the space"
Is this really what an experienced keeper is thinking about? That they do not have the space to keep both animals separate, so this is reason enough to keep them together?

I hope it's not. I would hope the well intentioned experienced keeper is well aware of the risks and has taken all the means necessary to minimize those risks. Something the newbie keeper may be completely unaware of, or may not know how to accomplish.

I guess summed up, most NEW keepers don't have the experience necessary, and by giving them a plethora of options, they are going to take what appears to be the easy way out. Often to the harm of the reptile, simply because they do not understand what they are doing on each level.

The decisions are based on many things, but sometimes the care for new species seems daunting, and many are just looking to keep things simple. Which most people here for any amount of time know that the majority of people here have had there snakes for a few weeks or months.

LOL, sorry if that made no sense. I have trouble getting my points across sometimes.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

Agreed. What I disagree with is the way things are stated.

"Never house snakes together" and "I recommend that you keep the snakes seperate until you get more experience" are two completely different comments.

When absolutes like 'never' or 'always' are thrown into the statement. It creates a false fact in the mind of the person receiving the advice.

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I guess I rather use strong words to dissuade new owners, rather than let them think it is ok to do so before they are ready and experienced enough.

You know that if you let them think it is OK they will want to do it right now without waiting to have the experience.

We use NEVER and ALWAYS in this language all the time in various circumstances, it does not mean we mean it as an absolute.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

But it is all in the details....

Feed your animal what, feed it how, feed it when, feed it where?

The basic needs to maintain life are absolute........the ways in which those needs are met are not ;)

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Sure. But I am not talking about the details :) Bare Bones basics. Absolutely.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

3. Tubs are best for snakes.

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*grumble*

I hate that this is a "for granted" absolute...I hate having to stamp on my "glass soap box" on this website so often to fight for the right to safely and correctly house my PET snakes in glass...:mad:

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Sure. But I am not talking about the details :) Bare Bones basics. Absolutely.

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But then Heather just cracks me up! :rofl:

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Originally Posted by cassandra

*grumble*

I hate that this is a "for granted" absolute...I hate having to stamp on my "glass soap box" on this website so often to fight for the right to safely and correctly house my PET snakes in glass...:mad:

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Cass, sadly - many new owners don't touch even a hair of the detail that you and Rick did when setting up glass enclosures. If new owners went through the painstaking detail that you did to get glass set up properly, then I absolutely agree that glass works great!

Unfortunately, they either aren't inclined to put in the time or the money to do it correctly.

I've never felt you've had to fight for your "right" to keep your snakes in glass.

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Originally Posted by cassandra

*grumble*
I hate that this is a "for granted" absolute...I hate having to stamp on my "glass soap box" on this website so often to fight for the right to safely and correctly house my PET snakes in glass...:mad:

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But who do you have to stand on you 'glass soap box' for? Is it the experienced people, beginners who are just repeating what was recommended to them, or both?

Nothing wrong with a different method as long as it is done in a good way ;)

I have big plans for a ball python enclosure that incorperates what is best about custom plastic cages, rack system tubs, and glass terriariums. I just have to get my shed finished before I start work on it.....and it is going to be something people are not used to seeing for ball pythons.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

We use NEVER and ALWAYS in this language all the time in various circumstances, it does not mean we mean it as an absolute.

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Perhaps you would be better off speaking ONLY for yourself.

You see, some of us use words to say what we mean. I don't say always when I mean sometimes. I don't say never when I mean on occasion.

YOU may well do that, and I think that is part of the problem with teaching people anything, especially reptile care. You will say NEVER do that, meaing don't do it until you have the experience to do so. You will say ALWAYS do this, meaning do this until you have the experience not to.

How about just saying what you mean?

If I say never, I actually mean not ever.

If I say always, I truly mean every time.

Try it, you'll be surprised how well it conveys what you actually mean to say.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I guess summed up, most NEW keepers don't have the experience necessary, and by giving them a plethora of options, they are going to take what appears to be the easy way out. Often to the harm of the reptile, simply because they do not understand what they are doing on each level.

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This is almost exactly what I was going to say.

I've seen it happen many times where someone is asking a question in a thread; they receive 6 responses telling them not to do something and then 1 response from someone telling them its ok. In most cases being new to the site doesn't help the inquiring person know who is experienced and who is not.

This is where the person who is asking a question has some decisions to make, and I think the route they choose is one of two.

Route 1 = People who really care about their animals and are willing often to do whatever it takes to make sure they're properly set up. Buying new equipment, trying new ideas etc.

Route 2 = People who like their snake but view it more as an object and are not going to go above and beyond to make sure everything is perfect.

I think "absolutes" are needed for route 2 people. Otherwise there would be no getting through to them, they would just latch on to the one person who says what they want to hear and only the snake suffers after that.

After enough experience and time in the hobby you realize that there are many ways to take care of these animals and you start to experiment on your own.

Great thread, Daniel! There are obviously many different ways to successfully keep these animals, and some are better than others in different situations. I have been getting a little tired of seeing one member criticise another about something they were not asking for advice on. I understand if it is someone you know is inexperienced and is making a significant mistake... but really, enough of the nitpicking, especially in instances where that particular method has been working fine for that person.

I have many comments on this, as it is a topic I like discussing, so im going to mention most things i have a opinion on, so bear with me, sorry for the long post.

Heathers absolutes apply to any animal, and really is just what we consider necissary, it may be care, but is to the point if you dont do those things, it may be illegal. ;)

I think with anything, Bone basics is what works best with newcomers, Talking new methods is not easy for them to grasp, and without good knowledge of the animal, it can be dangerous.

I think that with no absolutes, all decisions should come down to saftey first, this is a live animal that depends on you, if you mess with it, then you are putting it in danger and not doing your job. Keeping it healthy, happy, and in a good situation is your number one goal, dont step over this because of your needs. The benifit the animal gets is to be weighed in, Keeping a snake alone has much more benifits then dangers (no real dangers), this is why i support it. any problems that this method causes is to be weighed in, if it is stressful, then it may need to be rethought. then the things that benifit the keeper should be last if at all.

To me, in most cases not housing together is almost a absolute. It has no apparent benifits to the animal, just to the keeper. But still as it is not fact, just a opinion that can be backed, it should not be preached as absolute.

What if for a change instead of talking about the negative results of housing together, we talked about the benifits of housing alone? :rolleye2:

Ive learned Never and Always to be dangerous words, because there is not a Never in most situations, nor an always.

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Is this really what an experienced keeper is thinking about?

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What is a experienced keeper, Another conversation/debate that has been had recently here.

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Do not keep bearded dragons on sand. Very general statement. So many variables....what is the grain size of the sand, is it manufactured or natural, what are the shape of the grains, is it 100% sand or is it a sandy loam, is the bearded well hydrated, moisture content of the soil, etc.

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There will always be debate on this, without rattling out details, there are certain sands dangerous, certain fine, adults may not have a problem, some may, babies probably will. But its details.

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How many people say to keep beardies off sand, but have never read books describing bearded dragon burrows in the red sandy loam of Australia?

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And how many people read books, but dont fully understand how beardies live? With beardies, Centrals (Vitticepts) they live on a mix of hard loamy clay, with a dried crusted layer on top, its a red soil, but not like playsand, Its more of a dry dirt, then a sand. THey also live in burnt down forests, in peoples yards, near roads. They do burrow to avoid heat, but dragons can NOT burrow in playsand, Ever tried to dig in dry sand? What happens? So does keeping on sand have any use? To me, it may provide enrichment for an adult dragon, but has no practical instinctual use in there lives in its simplest form (dry sand).

To me sticking to non-generic absolutes leads to a Lack of change, which IMHO is failure to your animals , Every day I like to find a new idea on how to adjust things to enrich my animals lives, with each, my factors come in again, saftey, benifit, dangers. Sure ball pythons or beardies, or any animal can be kept in a uniform way with ease, but when we think this is the best, we dont have the future ideas to compare it to, and if we stick with the current we never will.

If things stay the same for ever, and you worry too much, there is no new benifits. Consider each thing, and weight it, Dont preach facts, when they are not. Preach the information, and let a opinion be formed, dont preach a opinion, and use selective information to back it up. This and parroting are a problem in forums, and unless you grasp the idea of each concept you are preaching, dont preach.

To me the only absolute is there is no absolutes when it comes to specific care.

Ben

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Originally Posted by Crazydude

Heathers absolutes apply to any animal, and really is just what we consider necissary, it may be care, but is to the point if you dont do those things, it may be illegal. ;)

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EXACTLY!!!!

Bare bones absolutes!! :P

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

This is almost exactly what I was going to say.

I've seen it happen many times where someone is asking a question in a thread; they receive 6 responses telling them not to do something and then 1 response from someone telling them its ok. In most cases being new to the site doesn't help the inquiring person know who is experienced and who is not.

This is where the person who is asking a question has some decisions to make, and I think the route they choose is one of two.

Route 1 = People who really care about their animals and are willing often to do whatever it takes to make sure they're properly set up. Buying new equipment, trying new ideas etc.

Route 2 = People who like their snake but view it more as an object and are not going to go above and beyond to make sure everything is perfect.

I think "absolutes" are needed for route 2 people. Otherwise there would be no getting through to them, they would just latch on to the one person who says what they want to hear and only the snake suffers after that.

After enough experience and time in the hobby you realize that there are many ways to take care of these animals and you start to experiment on your own.

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I agree. The kinds of people who really love their animals will get into the hobby to the point that they will want to see and learn more all the time. The Route 2 people need to be discouraged from mistreating their animal. I don't have a huge problem with the Route 2 people, but they still need to care for the animals, whether they love them like I do or not. Usually it's all you can do to make them stick to the basics and actually freaking feed their pets!!! Absolutes are pretty necessary for those people.


And housing 2 snakes together is to me an absolute, especially now.
I have two rescues currently sharing a tub (glass is ok, but plastic is cheaper!) because I just finished making them a separate enclosure. I adopted them as a pair that had lived together for 17 years unexpectedly and finally finished the second one. They are going to be separated today, and this isn't ever something I'm going to recommend anyone to do or do again. It was dumb of me not to have a setup for each and next time I will be prepared. They were my first rescues and since they had lived together so long, I was unsure if being separated might even cause more stress. It will certainly make my life easier having them separated! I am hoping & assuming that it won't be a negative change. I won't rip anyone's face off for housing two together, but I certainly don't recommend it & will continue to recommend AGAINST it having experienced it briefly.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

How about just saying what you mean?

If I say never, I actually mean not ever.

If I say always, I truly mean every time.

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I agree. I tell people to never handle their snake for two days after feeding.
I would, in an emergency do so to a snake, but that doesn't mean you SHOULD do it- unless your house is burning down & you are getting all the pets out. That's an absolute to me that should be pretty important. I would rather have my snake regurg and be sick awhile and even die later from the regurg than let it become snake roast. The risk of them dying from a regurgitation is less than the risk of death/ permenant injury from fire. The rules of pet care obviously need to be a little flexible, in cases where there is a greater benefit (saving snake's life) and a lesser negative consequence (regurgitation, possibly sickness or death due to stress of an emergency).
I know occasionally rules are broken, and most of the time nothing bad comes of it. While nothing is completely absolute, it doesn't mean you can't try to stick to your guns. There are exceptions to just about every rule, but that doesn't mean the rules are worthless. and should be broken for whatever reason.

Absolutely no hot rocks or lights inside the cage.

Absolutely no cedar, pine or sand

Absolutely research your pet before buying

Absolutely know how to use google

Absolutely know where your nearest herp vet is.

Thats about all my absolutes.


***(some of these are BP specific - but you get the point)

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Originally Posted by darkbloodwyvern

And housing 2 snakes together is to me an absolute, especially now.
........ I won't rip anyone's face off for housing two together, but I certainly don't recommend it & will continue to recommend AGAINST it having experienced it briefly.

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Some people may have their own personal care preference. If you NEVER want to house two snakes together, that is fine. If you want to recommend against it, that is fine. If you want to tell others that there is no other way but to follow your personal absolutes, that is wrong.

That is one of the main points I was trying to get across. Our specific ways of keeping animals do not become a problem until they become stated as the only way to do something.

We stop progress in this hobby when we deal with too many of the false facts.

Housing snakes together is just one example.

Like I said before.....each reptile is different, each keeper is different and each situation is different.

Onto a different comment...

Tubs are best for snakes.

Do you know why are snakes housed in tubs and rack systems?? The system serves a purpose. Do you know what that purpose is? What makes it better than other methods?

I commonly see people use the comment "ball pythons live in burrows most of the time" when discussing tub housing methods. Ball pythons may live in burrows 'most' of the time in the wild, but they live in our care ALL of the time in captivity. What do ball pythons do when they are not in a burrow?

What if you provided an enclosure with a secure 'burrow' and access to 'above ground'? Wouldn't that be interesting? Think past being told that tubs make great enclosures......tubs and racks work great for what they were intended, but do not view them as a FINAL product(a.k.a. the absolute housing).....Find something that works better.

Like I have said previously, why did some people loose focus on exploring different methods and studying natrual history? Was it because methods were given as absolutes? Was it because expanding upon that knowledge became less interesting? More interest in genetics and morphs? Growing influence of commercial practices on hobby keepers?

I really do not know. I just want people to remember that they can explore more options in the way they care for their animals.

Sand is fine for almost any snake if it's the right kind of sand.

Pine is fine for almost any snake provided the pine is dry.

I don't remember the rest of the list someone posted as gospel, but to say I find it foolish is somewhat of an understatement.

I'm NOT saying you MUST, just that you can with NO ill effects.

Every single point I make has been proven with years of experience. My experience. When you can tell me that you have done the same and then prove that your outcome is different than mine, THEN you can talk absolutes and I won't call you a fool.

Until then, got to get some foolscaps made.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

3. Tubs are best for snakes.

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Originally Posted by cassandra

*grumble*

I hate that this is a "for granted" absolute...I hate having to stamp on my "glass soap box" on this website so often to fight for the right to safely and correctly house my PET snakes in glass...:mad:



But then Heather just cracks me up! :rofl:

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i agree cass what should of been said was tubs are easiest to keep snakes in not are best for snakes. i too hate having to argue about keeping my snakes in a tank, it may not be as easy as a tub but everything is spot on and my snakes LOVE it.

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

Absolutely no hot rocks or lights inside the cage.

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What if you run your hot rock on a thermostat and you have barriers around your lights?

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Originally Posted by 771subliminal

everything is spot on and my snakes LOVE it.

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How do you know they love it?

i think the biggest thing that noone has even touched is , ALWAYS have a means of measuring,monitoring, and adjusting temps, (digi thermometers and thermostats), i think thats the biggest absolute of them all

Great post Dan:)
Here's some food for thought about the temperature/gradient issue. You hear much thrown around like, 92 hot side, 82 cool side, etc. Does anyone know the average temperatures for the area in Africa that balls come from?(Togo, Benin, Ghana). Here's a link to average temps for that region over the entire year:
http://www.weather.com/outlook/trave...omnav_business

As you can see temperatures vary quite a bit. The AVG daytime is upper 80's - meaning it could be warmer or cooler. The AVG nightime is mid 70's or so - meaning it could be warmer or cooler. And during the winter there it only gets to the low 80's and at night can get below low 70's - yet the seem to survive and thrive quite well under these conditions.

Not taking any sides here, just throwing out some different ideas.


Marc

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Originally Posted by MrShultzy

Great post Dan:)
Here's some food for thought about the temperature/gradient issue. You hear much thrown around like, 92 hot side, 82 cool side, etc. Does anyone know the average temperatures for the area in Africa that balls come from?(Togo, Benin, Ghana). Here's a link to average temps for that region over the entire year:
http://www.weather.com/outlook/trave...omnav_business

As you can see temperatures vary quite a bit. The AVG daytime is upper 80's - meaning it could be warmer or cooler. The AVG nightime is mid 70's or so - meaning it could be warmer or cooler. And during the winter there it only gets to the low 80's and at night can get below low 70's - yet the seem to survive and thrive quite well under these conditions.

Not taking any sides here, just throwing out some different ideas.

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It is great food for thought Marc.

Using that temp information can be helpful....IF you understand nature.

With an average daytime temperature in the upper 80's.....I can find basking areas in excess of 100 degrees......I can also find cool areas in the 70s......On a 70 deg night, I can find places with temps in the high 80s...

When I go field herping, I bring my temp gun. Why? It is interesting to see how much temperatures vary in nature. On an average day this time of year, I can find temps ranging from 75 deg. to 115 deg....I can also find various moisture (humidity) levels....

...the thing is.....the reptiles can find their niche in the spectrum of environmental conditions alot better than most people know.

In captivity, some provide a set humidity....some a narrow temperature range....what would happen if you provide something outside of those commonly used conditions and give the animal a choise?

Reptiles are alot better at knowing what they need than their keepers. I say give them the options and let the animals make their own choices.

Just commenting on the last 2 posts Dans and Marcs.

We provide these gradiets, because in the wild, they maintain this themselves. Where do they go to shed? A damper area. When Hot? A cooler area, When cold? a warmer area. They constantly move to adjust there temps. They are like a natural On/Off thermostat. If it drops to a certain point and they have a need for higher temps, they move to a hotter area. If they get to hot, they cool down.

This is very visible in captivity too, The cool/hot side, they move when hot, move when cold.

Though this is a BP forum, beardies were mentioned, and I can give the best example with this.

Bearded dragons need a body temp of 95 to digest. My dragon perfers a body temp of 98. Ive observed her with a tempgun, After she eats, she basks, when she gets to 99 body temp, she moves to the cool side on top of her cave, when she drops to about 96, she basks again, This is all to maintain her ideal temp. Id love to give a large enclosure outside the ordinary, SHe has a 5x2x2, and it is not enough IMO, Im thinking out ideas to make things better.

In Captivity, Generally we dont have tons of area to provide a mix of areas which is why tubs and racks are made. In my mind, for a ball python, the Ideal enclosure would be a A mix of terrain, temps, humidity, and it would be large, If its large, the snake may hide, but it wont try to excape, I dont think it stresses them as much as there hunt to excape.

Mainly because we are happier setting up the Ideal zones, so they can live "fine", and we have a Tub love. Unless you provide every temp in the gradient and a range of humidity, and terrain, we have to give the ideal. Id love to try the a large enclosure with a mix of terrain and temps, but dont feel comfortable giving it a go. Also, the work and effort into that, would be too much to do if a person had multiple snakes. so we give perfect, they stay healthy, happy i dont know. The snake is not thriving in the tub, they are healthy, but not thiving, theres a fine line between surviving and thriving. I know i will be flamed for this, but really think about it, You keep them healthy, but theres more to that. I dont agree with the way tubs are delt with on a mass scale, Tubs can be done right, but generally they are not.

Humans can live in there house all there life is food is brought to them it is clean, they get medical care when needed, and all the stuff is perfect and brought to them, But when a person is active, not only are they physically healthier, they are happier, and there lives are enriched. Im not comparing a snakes emotions to a humans, But think, You can live that way, but theres something better outthere. Survive, not thrive.

I think if he had imperfect temps, the snake would be more active, and in a result fitter and healthier. It would be a cool practice, but one that idealy would be done by someone with experience with the wild habitat.

Just some ideas, I tink we can change the way they live for the better, Just takes some thinking, and not sticking to your absolute guns. Think outside the tub, and see what you can think up.
Ben

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Originally Posted by MrShultzy

Great post Dan:)
Here's some food for thought about the temperature/gradient issue. You hear much thrown around like, 92 hot side, 82 cool side, etc. Does anyone know the average temperatures for the area in Africa that balls come from?(Togo, Benin, Ghana). Here's a link to average temps for that region over the entire year:
http://www.weather.com/outlook/trave...omnav_business

As you can see temperatures vary quite a bit. The AVG daytime is upper 80's - meaning it could be warmer or cooler. The AVG nightime is mid 70's or so - meaning it could be warmer or cooler. And during the winter there it only gets to the low 80's and at night can get below low 70's - yet the seem to survive and thrive quite well under these conditions.

Not taking any sides here, just throwing out some different ideas.


Marc

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Are there any measurements of the temps inside the insulating burrows and termite mounds that have been heated during the day? I would have to dig, and I think Frankykeno may have the link, but I believe that I remember reading that they tend to maintain consistent temps in the high 80's, even at night when the outside temps drop.

Yea, I know that termite mounds are excellent at keeping constant perfect temps. That's why termite mounds are used by so many different animals.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Are there any measurements of the temps inside the insulating burrows and termite mounds that have been heated during the day? I would have to dig, and I think Frankykeno may have the link, but I believe that I remember reading that they tend to maintain consistent temps in the high 80's, even at night when the outside temps drop.

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I have some charts in monitor lizard books showing temp variation in termite mounds throughout the year. Interesting stuff since inside the mound is pretty close to a constant temperature at any given location. Lace monitors tend to lay eggs in termite mounds....and unlike pythons....their eggs need constant temps for the HUNDREDS of days it takes to incubate ;)

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Are there any measurements of the temps inside the insulating burrows and termite mounds that have been heated during the day? I would have to dig, and I think Frankykeno may have the link, but I believe that I remember reading that they tend to maintain consistent temps in the high 80's, even at night when the outside temps drop.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Yea, I know that termite mounds are excellent at keeping constant perfect temps. That's why termite mounds are used by so many different animals.

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But they don't all live in termite mounds! I think this fallacy got started because the gravid females tend to seek out burrows and termite mounds as a safe place to lay their eggs, and the collectors of WC ball pythons know to look there for an entire clutch. These snakes live in shrubbery and mangroves also. Given this, I think a several degree temp gradient (around each average high and average low) is appropriate...

Great post Dan. I listened to all the absolutes when I started keeping snakes, and it probably kept my snakes alive. But I have learned so much since then. Now I don't follow any of the absolutes. I keep my temps just a bit cooler, my hides are not identical, most of my enclosures are glass, my humidity runs a bit high, and my snakes love me!!! Just kidding about that last part. But my snakes are all very happy and healthy and still teaching me everyday.

i think that no matter how, "like the wild", our enclosures are they are still very unlike the wild because the wild is natural and our enclosures are not. no matter how much we study a natural habitat of an animal we will never be able to perfectly recreate it. thats why we have guidlines for keeping specific species and many of us stick to them because they work when keeping these animals unnaturally. obviously many of us deviate from these guidlines a little for various reasons and the majority of us who do, do it for the health and wellness of their animals due to a greater understanding of them that comes with experience. i would love to provide my animals with eveything they can get from the wild but i would have to release them back into their natural habitat to do so...

i think this is why we have guidelines for keeping certain species but i dont view them as absolutes. i view the keepers who speak in absolutes maybe as inexperienced keepers but i may also view the keepers who deviate radically from certain guidelines as idiots.;) but it all depends on the situation and is never black and white. i also think that if youre teaching a beginner keeper how to take care of his first reptile then you have to at first say "do it like this" because he doesnt have the knowledge or experience to do it like us yet.

well i could go on but you guys must be sick of me already...:twocents:

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Originally Posted by starmom

But they don't all live in termite mounds! I think this fallacy got started because the gravid females tend to seek out burrows and termite mounds as a safe place to lay their eggs, and the collectors of WC ball pythons know to look there for an entire clutch. These snakes live in shrubbery and mangroves also. Given this, I think a several degree temp gradient (around each average high and average low) is appropriate...

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That's interesting - where have you read about them staying in shrubbery and mangroves?

I don't find any mention of that in my copy of Pythons of the World, Vol. 2: Ball Pythons by Dave and Tracy Barker. :)

p.7

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The information that is available to us about the natural history of ball pythons is derived primarily from observations of ball pythons in Ghana (Cansdale, 1944, 1955: Gorzula, 1998; Sprawls, 1989, 1992; Noah, pers. coml) Because of the general similarities of topography, climate, plant community associations, prey and predators, we think we can safely extrapolate, however, that what is known about the species in Ghana should be at least generally true elsewhere in its range.

It is the rainy season that mark the passing of time in this area of the world. Throughout the range of ball pythons, from mid to late autumn until early spring, it is hot and dry. Gorzula (1998), Aubret et al. (2003), and Noah (pers. com.) comment that during this time, ball pythons are relatively inactive and are found predominately in underground refugia, mostly in burrows excavated by rodents, tortoises, and monitors; ball pythons are often found in burrows in the bases of active and inactive termite mounds.

According to Noah (pers. com.), during November through January, collectors find male and female snakes together in burrows - sometimes in paris, sometimes in small groups. Also according to Noah (pers. com.), the snake collectors refer to this as the time of barabara, a colloquial term for the breeding season.

In late winter, in the middle of the dry season, professional snake hunters begin to collect. Hunting is a matter of going to a likely are, most often in or near pasture and croplands, and walking through the area, looking closely for burrows. Ball pythons are rarely encountered above ground, but evidence of their nocturnal movements is apparent at the mouth of the burrows they inhabit (Greer, 1994: Gorzula, 1998).

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Great post Dan
Here's some food for thought about the temperature/gradient issue. You hear much thrown around like, 92 hot side, 82 cool side, etc. Does anyone know the average temperatures for the area in Africa that balls come from?(Togo, Benin, Ghana). Here's a link to average temps for that region over the entire year:
http://www.weather.com/outlook/trave...omnav_business

As you can see temperatures vary quite a bit. The AVG daytime is upper 80's - meaning it could be warmer or cooler. The AVG nightime is mid 70's or so - meaning it could be warmer or cooler. And during the winter there it only gets to the low 80's and at night can get below low 70's - yet the seem to survive and thrive quite well under these conditions.

Not taking any sides here, just throwing out some different ideas.

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Of course I had to come back to this once I got home and could reference this book:

p. 6

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We investigated several sources for relevant climate data and decided to use Qwikcast (http://www.qwik-cast.com) for the following data on temperatures and precipitation. This website presented thorough data in a way that was easy to interpret (for each data point it indicated the period of time on which the average is based), and it included data from many localities throughout the range of P. regius.

To simply summarized the climate in which ball pythons are found, it could be said that because of weather, most localities are not popular tourist destinations. Most ball python localities are hot and humid in the day, temperate and even more humid at night. Daytime temperatures in the 90s (degrees F) are not uncommon during most of the year. During the hottest and driest six months of the year, temperatures exceeding 105 degrees to 115 degrees F (40.5 degrees to 46 degrees C) are recorded at many localities.

For comparison to the average annual temperatures of localities in the range of ball pythons, one should consider that the average annual temperature of San Antonio, TX is 69 degrees F (20.5 degrees C) and of Phoenix, Arizona, is 73 degrees F (23.5 degrees C). Even the warm average annual temperatures of 76 degrees F (24 degrees C) in Miami, Florida is cooler on average than the coolest locality in the range of ball pythons for which we can find record.

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Hi Robin~ I read it in a piece of research that I got off of the data base via grad school. I'll see if I can find it again, though I did use it in a response about a month ago and cited the information. I'll try to find it again in my stuff or go to the database. :gj:

Here we go Robin~
Citation:
Luiselli, L. & Godfrey, A. C. (2002). An investigation into the composition, complexity and functioning of snake communities in the mangroves of south-eastern Nigeria. East African Wildlife Society (40), 220-227.

Ummm, I don't know where to go from here. Do you want me to scan and email the article to you?

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Originally Posted by starmom

Here we go Robin~
Citation:
Luiselli, L. & Godfrey, A. C. (2002). An investigation into the composition, complexity and functioning of snake communities in the mangroves of south-eastern Nigeria. East African Wildlife Society (40), 220-227.

Ummm, I don't know where to go from here. Do you want me to scan and email the article to you?

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That would be cool - not to prove any point or anything, but because I enjoy learning as much as I can! :D

Did they specifically cite ball-pythons in this investigation?

I agree with the Dan's post. I think this best sums it up:

[Scotty tells Geordi to boost one of the impulse engine systems]
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: The engine won't take that kind of pressure.
Scotty: [laughs] Where'd you get an idea like that?
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: What do you mean, where'd I get an idea like that? It's in the impulse engine design specifications.
Scotty: [grinning] Regulation 42-slash-A-15?
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: Yeah.
Scotty: Forget it. I wrote it. A good engineer is always a wee bit conservative, at least on paper.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

That would be cool - not to prove any point or anything, but because I enjoy learning as much as I can! :D

Did they specifically cite ball-pythons in this investigation?

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Yep! :D

Absolutely...

A) ...gain and continuously expand on a thorough understanding of the husbandry requirements of any animal in your care at any time. Do not blindly take every bit of husbandry info at face value, but actually stop and think about how each facet of your husbandry - combined with a reptile's natural behavior - affects the animal(s) in your collection.

B) ...Identify reliable sources of information on your herps. The Internet is full of self-proclaimed experts. Learn to weed through all the "notice me's" and look at someone's actual track record with their animals when considering their advice. Through careful thought & assessment, try to learn from other keepers' mistakes, thereby potentially minimizing your own - ask yourself, "What can I learn from this situation to avoid going through the same problems with my animals?"

C) ...ask questions! Ask ask ask! It is OK not to know everything, and nobody does, whether they have one reptile or one thousand. Just remember that if you're not quite sure, it is always better to ask for clarification (even repeatedly) than to keep your mouth shut for fear of asking something "stupid" & potentially risking the well-being of the animals in your care.

D) ...stop and assess how far you've come since you've started keeping reptiles. Look back over how you've grown as a keeper, mistakes that you've made, corrected & learned from, and be honest with yourself in terms of your abilities as well as areas for improvement.

E) ...when A-D are firmly in place, remember that it may be necessary to "think outside the sweaterbox" from time to time. "Always" and "never" are hard words to apply to animals...just when we think we have things down pat, they love to teach us something new. ;)

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Originally Posted by starmom

But they don't all live in termite mounds! I think this fallacy got started because the gravid females tend to seek out burrows and termite mounds as a safe place to lay their eggs, and the collectors of WC ball pythons know to look there for an entire clutch. These snakes live in shrubbery and mangroves also. Given this, I think a several degree temp gradient (around each average high and average low) is appropriate...

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I was thinking something close, but with humans. You think that if humans were caught as a pet that our captors would think that they should keep us alone in a small cage with avg temps of 68-75 cuz we are mostly found in small quarters such as a home or cubicle. We dont know really all that much about bp's in the wild. Certainly not as much as we would like. They are still very much a mystery.

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Originally Posted by 771subliminal

I was thinking something close, but with humans. You think that if humans were caught as a pet that our captors would think that they should keep us alone in a small cage with avg temps of 68-75 cuz we are mostly found in small quarters such as a home or cubicle. We dont know really all that much about bp's in the wild. Certainly not as much as we would like. They are still very much a mystery.

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I'd spend all the time in my warm side hide and never venture into the cold side at all and people would tell my owner "Oh that's just what they do, humans are shy by nature" hehe