No More Chances

Gazelle, our albino breeder female just wasted her last chance. With this second litter from the same father, she buried them alive! Thankfully I caught them in time and pulled them all out from the bedding. I do not use a loose bedding and it becomes thick and heavy when wet and then dries into a dust. (wood pellet bedding) so when she buried these pinks it was like buring them under soil. I dusted them off and moved some rats around. I put Doe, my beige female in with them to see if she'd fuss over them at all. I just weaned her litter from her less than a week ago but this is the best shot they have at survival. Tomorrow, Gazelle is being taken to the reptile store to be sold to them as snake food.

I held back the two surviving girls from her first litter. Would these have any chance at being breeders? Will they repeat their mother's mistakes or would it be a good idea to give them a shot?

Females bury their litter when taking a break and is a sign she is taking care of them. I always give my nursing females a nice large handful of aspen to nest in.

I would think this is a good sign she is improving. They don't know that it's going to become thick and kill them.

What did you expect her to do when you don't give her any nesting material? They always cover their litter when they go off to eat or rest, it keeps the babies safe and warm. But when they don't have anything to nest in and make them feel secure, then they will use what is available.

Shred some newspaper, shred some kleenexes, whatever, so she has something soft to lay on and cover her babies with. Give her a kleenex box too. You can't just expect a first time mother to feel perfectly safe and secure when there is nothing in the cage but pine pellets on the floor...

And no, I wouldn't hold back her two daughters. Bad parenting can be genetic..

I do give my nesting mothers nesting material. Shredded paper, tissue, paper towel, ect. She buried that along with the babies. There were two babies that were buried an inch under the bedding. I had to dig them out.

When I went to check on the babies, all are alive. I have removed their mother from the tank and put Doe in with them. She was a wonderful mother and did a great job with her first litter. When I checked on them, she was nursing two babies. If I pulled her first litter less than a week ago, could she still have milk left? I added the remaining babies to her little "nest" she has created from Gazelle's mess.

Since I wasnt there, I cant really tell you more than this. My girls will bury their young under an avalanche of material if they want to. I've had a first time mother move all of the bedding and wood blocks and food onto her babies. it was about 5 -7 inches deep. 100% success with those girls, with plump happy babies.

I'm not surprised she buried them, it's what they do. ;)

I had my first litters on the pine pellets - and I lost most of the babies from the dust that it turns into.

I had another tub with a couple expectant mothers - and a few days before being due to give birth, I put a very thin layer of the pine pellets down and a THICK layer of aspen on top of that. The females DO bury their babie - pile the aspen all on top of them.

I've not had a single loss since making sure that expectant moms have a lot of aspen. The ones not nursing or have 2 week and older babies will be on strait pine pellets. Newborns on shavings.

With rats if you are only using pellets when the litter is born you will lose most of your babies. (With mice you won’t I only use pellets when they have their babies and they do fine)

What I do is that I use pellets in my breeding tubs once the female is ready to have her babies I set the enclosure with less than half of the pellets I usually use along with wood shaving.

I do that from the birth of the babies until they are 2 weeks old.

Once they are 2 weeks old I only use pellets.

really, you should have stayed back and let nature take its course. too many humans think they "know" whats best for critters but end up making things worse. its hard for many people to stand back and let things happen. just because animals were bought from a shop doesnt mean they lose their instincts. every animals brain is programmed to do certain things.

with any animal, some mothers will kill their babies either due to malnutrition or because they know they cant handle it while others are accidental. humans have this problem with thinking they know whats best for animals when they really have no clue.

i say you made a big mistake removing the babies. many animals will kill their first litter but turn out to be great mothers next time around.

that said, i have been breeding dwarf hamsters and mice for a couple months, and my rats just had their first litters with another due today or tomorrow. 10+ hamsters litters, 6+ mice, and now 2 rat litters so far. 1.5 litters of hamsters and 1 litter of mice died after i thought i was helping. the ones that i didnt even touch until their eyes were open all survived...

rats in captivity and the wild will bury their babies to keep them warm when they are out feeding. with no fur or fat on the babies its hard for them to stay warm and the mothers know this so they give them a "blanket" to keep warm.

I did what I thought was best and if you do not have any useful advice, I will ask that you leave. You came in here and from my point of view, attacked me and the way I keep my animals. It is unneeded and unwanted.

As for doing whats best for my animals, I did what I thought was best and I will be checking in on them momentarilly. This was not her first litter but her second. Her first litter she just let die off, one by one, all of the sudden. This one she decided to bury under an inch of bedding. I put Doe in with them and when I left for work, they were all fine.

I've heard of people removing babies from a bad mother and fostering them off to other mothers and the babies do wonderful. That is what I'm doing here, in hopes the babies survive. This was her last chance to prove herself as a good mother and instead she buries her babies under an inch of bedding.

Yes, I will start using Aspen for nursing mothers instead of the normal nesting material I give them in hopes this won't happen again, but this rat has shown she has issues with being a mother and she will not be given a second chance.

Hmmmm....I honestly didn't see that as an attack. Remember that written word isn't always read the way that the poster intended. No one has to leave, and everyone has the right to participate in threads here.

It came off as an attack. Basically saying I don't know whats best for my animals. I only "think" I know what I'm doing.

Update: I checked in on Doe and the babies. She's "nursing" them again. I'm not sure if they are getting any milk from her. I'm going to check for milkbands, but she is keeping them warm and she fusses over them like they were her own. She such a wonderful mama rat. She's a definite keeper. She will get such a nice long break after this.

All of my females bury their litters in aspen. Whenever they have babies I add extra aspen.

Also I'm not talking they bury them an inch, sometimes 2-3 inches and they are always fine.

Every rodent I've ever kept (mice, hamsters, rats, gerbils, chinchillas, etc) will bury babies, sometimes VERY deep down. The gerbils will bury them as deep as they can get.
All of them have always been just fine, only time I had trouble was when my rats didn't have enough bedding to bury them and squashed one with cardboard trying to cover them up. Its just in their instincts.

I dont know why you think it's an attack when everyone who's posted so far has said that you probably did not need to remove the babies, and that rats will bury them for reasons already stated so far.

It's constructive critisism. I don't see why you need to get so upset over some advice from people that have kept rats and mice for years, and are trying to give you tips!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

It came off as an attack. Basically saying I don't know whats best for my animals. I only "think" I know what I'm doing.

---

a nursing mother know whats best for her litter in most cases.

-she will kill them if she is being stressed too much
-not getting proper nutrition, not enough food
-she knows she cant handle them
-improper living conditions
-population is too high
-babies are weak

humans may think they know what is best for the critters, but like the old saying goes "mom knows best".

you posted asking for info and i gave it. you wont always hear what you want to hear in life, especially on the net. as to asking me to leave this thread. thanks, i had a nice little chuckle. :D

Moms do bury their babies. I myself do use the pelleted wood bedding with my nursing moms. I never have enough in there where the moms could even bury the babies in it; I change it to fresh pellets a few days before the mom is going to give birth. Along with this I provide a secure hide spot. The moms invariably use that.. I also add in some shavings for nesting material. Please do Not use socks or cloth pieces. I recently had a poor baby's hand get caught in the thread of a sock I had placed in there.. it looked painful and I will not use cloth ever again.

cut mom a break - she only did what she was supposed to do. You're talking about punishing her for it with her life, and then get upset when people tell you you're wrong.

I hate to sound like a bad person, but because I need to build up a strong colony, I have no space for rats like this. She is a mean SOB. Another female I have is an excellent mother. I had almost 100% survival rate with her first litter. She was great with them. Only one died and that was an accidental death. That is the kind of rat mom I need my others to be. Any sign of bad parenting, and you are out. So no, I don't think I'm being a bad person by wanting to feed off this individual rat.

You know your rats best, but she wasn't being a bad mother by burying them with the only substrate available to her. Had it been loose aspen, she'd be doing what all my mothers do - which is bury them to keep them warm while she takes a break - nothing malicious or "bad" about that at all. It just happened that the substrate she had to work with wasn't ideal.

I have females that bury their babies. They usually do so to take a break to eat/drink and then un-bury them when she nurses.

I have to agree with the others who say that choosing to feed off a mother rat because she buried her young is a bit harsh.

However, I know the history you've had with this particular rat. The first litter where most of them died. The chewing problem. So I don't question your choice to feed her off at all. It just seems a bit odd that the final straw is something that seems like a good sign.

I'd love to hear how the "adoption" with Doe and these babies is going. Please give us an update.

Also, in your original post in this thread you asked if you should try to keep any of the babies from this litter. If I remember correctly, you've had trouble getting your breeding program going due to not finding any good stock locally. So these ones might be better than other options available to you and at least it will give you more genetic variety than if you only keep Doe's offspring. You could always feed off Gazelle's entire line if you see any problems when her babies start being mothers.

I stopped the adoption with Doe since she wasn't producing any milk to feed the babies. And I need these babies to survive to at least 4 weeks old. This entire litter is destined to be feeders. I held back the only two surviving females from her first litter and will attempt to breed them. If they prove to be bad mothers, the entire line will be fed off. I have kept one of Doe's babies.

And now I have males in with three females, so hopefully I can begin to build my colony. I have two hooded females in with a berk dumbo and an albino (my only other albino female) in with a hooded dumbo. So we'll see how things go.

If your female has an history of being a bad mother or an history of being a poor breeder, I would not recommend holding back any offsprings but rather get new blood.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

If your female has an history of being a bad mother or an history of being a poor breeder, I would not recommend holding back any offsprings but rather get new blood.

---

Yeah I didn't understand that part either.