First eggs of the year, can small females breed?

Got my first clutch of the year finally. Nothing special, just a little dinking around project. But I thought it would be interesting to post some pics showing weight of the female after laying and the weight of the eggs.......

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...4-17-08_01.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...4-17-08_02.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...4-17-08_03.jpg

Congrats Mark! I'm going to assume this is an older female that just won't pack on the weight?

Hooray Mark!!! :)

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Originally Posted by jknudson

Congrats Mark! I'm going to assume this is an older female that just won't pack on the weight?

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Yeah, I've had her for three years now and for various reasons I suspect she was originally imported as a gravid wild caught and then sold after she dropped her eggs. She was a horrible eater when I first got her, it took months just to get her to take one small rat. But even once she started eating well she never put on any more size. So, I finally decided to breed her this year.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Yeah, I've had her for three years now and for various reasons I suspect she was originally imported as a gravid wild caught and then sold after she dropped her eggs. She was a horrible eater when I first got her, it took months just to get her to take one small rat. But even once she started eating well she never put on any more size. So, I finally decided to breed her this year.

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That's an even better story then! Glad to hear she's obviously well acclimated into captivity, and the fact that she's given you eggs, even better! Although smaller she looks obviously healthy.:gj::gj:

I thought that it would put too much stress on small females to breed??

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Originally Posted by aaramire

I thought that it would put too much stress on small females to breed??

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Small YOUNG females...

oh.... what is the difference besides age? i would think that if a small young female could become egg-bound because she is too lightweight, wouldnt it be the same for an older female of the same weight? sorry, I am just confused....

To be honest, I don't have any good proof to back it up. I'll have to get my books out and then get back to you on that one. :)

The theory is, however, that females have time to develop as they age, and therefore are more able to handle the stress of egg bearing while being light.

Congrats Mark! :)

I have one small female that is gravid now for her first clutch. She is 1100g and about 5 or 6 years old. :)

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

To be honest, I don't have any good proof to back it up. I'll have to get my books out and then get back to you on that one. :)

The theory is, however, that females have time to develop as they age, and therefore are more able to handle the stress of egg bearing while being light.

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ohh ok that does make sense. Thanks!!!

I think age is the most important factor in breeding. Some snakes never get real big, some grow to be monsters but after their third or fourth winter most are good to go.

I myself still like the 1400-1500 gram mark as a minimum but then again I have never had a small adult to consider breeding or not.

My thoughts are you should know and understand the rules before you try to bend them a little;)

I only have one question in regards to the discussion, and that is: has anyone ever had an egg-bound Ball Python? I only ask, because I keep hearing about the worrying oveer the female getting egg-bound. I have only heard of one female Ball Python being bound, and I think it was a rare occurance. From what I know, typically, egg-bound animals is generally a problem seen in colubrids.

Mark,
Congrats on the clutch. I would be interested to see how she eats and grows after laying her first assumed clutch in captivity, and have plenty of time to get acclimated to captivity.

Good luck Bro.

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Originally Posted by muddoc

I only have one question in regards to the discussion, and that is: has anyone ever had an egg-bound Ball Python? I only ask, because I keep hearing about the worrying oveer the female getting egg-bound. I have only heard of one female Ball Python being bound, and I think it was a rare occurance. From what I know, typically, egg-bound animals is generally a problem seen in colubrids.

Mark,
Congrats on the clutch. I would be interested to see how she eats and grows after laying her first assumed clutch in captivity, and have plenty of time to get acclimated to captivity.

Good luck Bro.

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I think Alice on here had one.

I had an eggbound Beardie once but never a BP.
The beardie eggs werent even fertile:confused: and she had already layed other infertile clutches.

Anyway that wasn't a size related issue, I think it has more to do with their female parts and health.

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Originally Posted by muddoc

I only have one question in regards to the discussion, and that is: has anyone ever had an egg-bound Ball Python? I only ask, because I keep hearing about the worrying oveer the female getting egg-bound. I have only heard of one female Ball Python being bound, and I think it was a rare occurance. From what I know, typically, egg-bound animals is generally a problem seen in colubrids.

Mark,
Congrats on the clutch. I would be interested to see how she eats and grows after laying her first assumed clutch in captivity, and have plenty of time to get acclimated to captivity.

Good luck Bro.

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Tim, thanks for bringing this point up. I have often wondered myself...its one of those things you always seem to hear about and read about, but I've NEVER talked to anyone who has experienced it with ball pythons.

I've heard of a healthy animal that laid a clutch of eggs and had a large or hard egg get caught in the oviduct and had to be aspirated to help remove it, but I do not believe it was due to the female being underweight or young... just happened.

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Original post by muddoc
I only have one question in regards to the discussion, and that is: has anyone ever had an egg-bound Ball Python? I only ask, because I keep hearing about the worrying oveer the female getting egg-bound. I have only heard of one female Ball Python being bound, and I think it was a rare occurance. From what I know, typically, egg-bound animals is generally a problem seen in colubrids.

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Original post by jknudson
Tim, thanks for bringing this point up. I have often wondered myself...its one of those things you always seem to hear about and read about, but I've NEVER talked to anyone who has experienced it with ball pythons.

I've heard of a healthy animal that laid a clutch of eggs and had a large or hard egg get caught in the oviduct and had to be aspirated to help remove it, but I do not believe it was due to the female being underweight or young... just happened.

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Interesting discussion here.

I have many years experience with the corns, but, this is the 1st year that I have (expecting to have) Ball Python's breeding.

I raised this potential egg-bound issue with a good friend & I was informed that he had not experienced any problems with retained eggs in his female breeders.

However, I have experienced the sad reality of corns becoming egg-bound & ensure that my breeding animals are mature with good weights (450 grams + prior to breeding) AND that they strike feed, ensuring the continual use of their muscles.

I observed very early on in my feeding trials that the B.P.'s do not utilize a large portion of their bodies whilst constricting their prey item, therefore, the body mass is - in comparision to corns - can I say 'flabby' without upseting too many animals!

Now, I must say that our wild 'cousins' experience an excellent form of excercise, from constricting &/or roaming searching for food in the wild, these captive bred animals remain within the complete environment that we provide & are not what I would consider 'fit' :rofl:

Therefore, a little more information on this subject is most appreciated although the aforementioned statements are re-assuring as I have just witnessed our 1st B.P. 'hook up' :gj:

Lex

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Originally Posted by muddoc

I only have one question in regards to the discussion, and that is: has anyone ever had an egg-bound Ball Python? I only ask, because I keep hearing about the worrying oveer the female getting egg-bound. I have only heard of one female Ball Python being bound, and I think it was a rare occurance. From what I know, typically, egg-bound animals is generally a problem seen in colubrids.

Mark,
Congrats on the clutch. I would be interested to see how she eats and grows after laying her first assumed clutch in captivity, and have plenty of time to get acclimated to captivity.

Good luck Bro.

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Interestingly Tim I have had an egg bound ball python. She was small, but much larger then this one. This was last year, with a possible het albino female that I had bought as a hatchling. I have a picture at home somewhere of the ugly looking eggs I ended up squeezing out of her. If my memory is right, she was right around or maybe just shy of 1200grams. She was over six years old and had never been bred. I finally figured that six years was enough time waiting for her to get bigger and I bred her. She was WAY over a couple of months after her pre-lay shed and was obviously uncomfortable and had a little bit of a prolapse going on when I tried to aspirate the eggs. The eggs were already solid so I couldn't aspirate any fluid out so I had to just palpate them down until I could squeeze them out of her. She's OK, but I held her back from breeding this year. I'll re-evaluate her next year and see if I want to try breeding her again, or just retire her as a pet.

Mark

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Interestingly Tim I have had an egg bound ball python. She was small, but much larger then this one. This was last year, with a possible het albino female that I had bought as a hatchling. I have a picture at home somewhere of the ugly looking eggs I ended up squeezing out of her. If my memory is right, she was right around or maybe just shy of 1200grams. She was over six years old and had never been bred. I finally figured that six years was enough time waiting for her to get bigger and I bred her. She was WAY over a couple of months after her pre-lay shed and was obviously uncomfortable and had a little bit of a prolapse going on when I tried to aspirate the eggs. The eggs were already solid so I couldn't aspirate any fluid out so I had to just palpate them down until I could squeeze them out of her. She's OK, but I held her back from breeding this year. I'll re-evaluate her next year and see if I want to try breeding her again, or just retire her as a pet.

Mark

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Thanks for the reply Mark. My main point was that although I have heard and seen an egg bound female Ball Python, it is a pretty rare event from all of the people I talked to. I don't really think that size is that big of an issue. I have a small female that is in her POS right now, and I palpated 6 eggs in her. Those eggs are smaller than normal eggs. Therefore, I believe that a MATURE small female can lay without problems, and just typically has smaller eggs.

What was the average weight of the eggs that your female just laid. I would guess that they are in the 60 gram range, if my theory is correct.

EDIT: I just saw the eggs in the scale pic, and my theory was pretty close I guess. The egsgs average 62.5 grams each.

Congratulations on the eggs but (and please don't take this offensively - not my intent) but those eggs look horrible considering they've just been laid :confused: Are they fertile?

I'm going to move this to the Advanced Husbandry forum, because this is EXACTLY the type of topics we hoped to see discussed there! Maybe we drive more conversations there too! I love it! :clap:

Damn thats pretty significant weight difference there!

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

Congratulations on the eggs but (and please don't take this offensively - not my intent) but those eggs look horrible considering they've just been laid :confused: Are they fertile?

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No problem Tosha, any question is fair game. The bottom egg I'm not sure about because it was kicked out of the coils, she was only wrapped around the top three. They are somewhat dessicated, they may have been laid a few days ago but I'm not sure about that I just found them today. I didn't have time to candle them this morning or I would have been even later for work then I already was. I plan on doing that tonight to see if they look fertile or not. I'll try to get pics, but judging from my past candling attempts the pics probably wont turn out. I'll also try to dig up that pic of the eggs I got out of the egg bound female last year, they looked really black and gnarly.

Mark

Well, I candled the eggs tonight when I got home from work, all 4 of them had strong veins, even the one that wasn't coiled. I'm still wondering if it'll make it though it's pretty sunken in, but I've hatched worse looking eggs before so I guess I'll just keep my fingers crossed (and cover it with a damp paper towel).

I took over a dozen pics of candling the eggs and this is the only one that came out even somewhat recognizable as having veins. It's tough taking pics in the dark with only a flashlight for lighting.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...4-17-08_01.jpg

I still haven't found the pic of the egg bound female from last year, I'll try to find it tomorrow. I know it's gotta be here somewhere.

Mark

Congrats Mark! Fingers crossed on these!!!

Thanks Robin, I'm pretty sure that they'll hatch OK, at least most of them.

Also heres that pic of the stuck eggs that I promised. These are eggs that I removed from a ball python last season when she became egg bound. They're pretty ugly looking eggs. I wish I had pics of her before I removed them, she really looked uncomfortable, but I didn't think of getting pics until they were already out of her.

CAUTION, These are pretty disgusting looking...... :puke2::puke2::puke2::puke2:





VVVVVVVVVVVV down there VVVVVVVVVVVVVV









http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...s/Uglyeggs.jpg

omg! she must have been in so much pain! how did you get the eggs out?? and was the female ok after???? yikes!

I wonder what are the causes of being egg bound? Weak muscles? Hormones aren't released to induce "labor" (what do we call that in snakes?)?

Glad to see what it looks like, it looks like there was some blood involved as well - you say that she's recovered well though?

It's called dystocia, and it can be linked to a number of things. Poor body condition, low blood calcium that helps the muscles contract, etc. Sometimes giving an injection of calcium can help the eggs pass.

Beckys right, there are a lot of different reasons for egg binding, you could also have a twisted oviduct, cloaca thats too narrow or eggs that are too big. I was able to get them out by palpating and massaging the eggs until I was able to push them out. I had a friend of mine who is a vet show me how to do it once when I took an egg bound corn snake in to see her. You have to take your time and have a good feel for whats going on inside the snake. Of course sometimes you're just going to need surgery, fortunately in this case it wasn't necessary. After the first one passed, the rest of them came right out. She recovered just fine, even eating less then a week after the eggs came out. One positive thing that came about was that she had been only a mouser before, but afterwards she had no problem taking rats. Like I said earlier, I'm not breeding her this year, I'll wait to see how she's doing until next year and then decide whether or not I want to try it again.

Yes, one definitely needs to have a feel for things, especially if there are adhesions inside the snake. If eggs are moved when adhesions are present, the oviduct could tear/rupture and the snake may bleed internally or require extensive surgery to repair the damage.

Congrats Mark! She looks nice and HEALTHY!!:gj:

Nice clutch Mark. She's a nice looking snake.

Well, here's my 5th clutch of the year and my second smallest female. I received her along with the first one in this thread at the same time. She's slightly larger but still quite small.
Here she is on the eggs you can't see. There were 4 of them
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2.../clutch5-2.jpg
Here are the eggs,
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2.../clutch5-3.jpg
Here is her weight after laying. Only 722 grams
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2.../clutch5-5.jpg
And here are her eggs on the scale. Only 300 grams
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2.../clutch5-6.jpg

Again, just like the other one, she is a wild caught girl that I suspect had been imported gravid and sold after she dropped her eggs. I've had her for three years and she hasn't grown at all in that time. You can't see it in the pics, but you can still see what look like noose marks on this girl from when she was captured.

When I first received these two, they both had the sunken in 'flat tire' look of females that had just laid eggs, however at the time I thought, like most people, that they were simply too small to breed and were just starved half to death. (they looked really bad when I first received them) But, after keeping them for three years and seeing their complete lack of growth, and their apparent ease in laying eggs, I now believe that they were originally gravid imports that were dumped after laying. It'll be interesting to see how their babies grow. The male is also a wild caught. He has an interesting 'off' color (he was given to me as a wild caught axanthic) but is more normal size. I'll post some more pics when the eggs hatch.

Mark

Very interesting stuff Mark thanks a lot for sharing.

I think that the reason that many of us want to steer people away from breeding smaller females is this. We don't want relatively new breeders thinking "oh, I just got this hatchling female this year. Why don't I powerfeed her and breed her asap?" People that have experience and that can read their snakes, can safely breed smaller girls; that is proven by their postings of doing so successfully. But I don't think that this is something for a beginner to get into.. because they might have trouble seeing signs of bad sheds, parasites, and the like.. let alone, have trouble determining if a young female is ready. Now if it is a potential breeder who's already had BPs for awhile, and knows how to tell if they're in great physical condition.. maybe IMO. I am glad that breeders suchas JAS that have success with the smaller-than-1500g girls are coming forward. I admit to being against it in the past, but after seeing people with more experience than myself doing it, I think that it is definately a valid practice.
Isn't it true also.. that if a female is not ready, she won't produce eggs anyway?

Well, here is he end result of the small female clutch. As predicted the caved in egg didn't make it, but I got three nice hatchlings out of the other eggs (2.1). They're smaller then normal babies, but not the smallest I've ever hatched. It'll be interesting to see how they grow.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...atchlings8.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...atchlings6.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...atchlings7.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...atchlings5.jpg

So, what do you think of them? It's a special project that I'm working on and I think it's off to a pretty good start. Could have used more females, but I've got another clutch incubating from this male so I'll have to see what I get out of those.

Mark

They almost look like cinnies, with the black backs and patterning on the backs, and the overall darkness. There are also some dark edging in the brown areas around the black spots, like what you sometimes see on black pastels, although blushing and flames and faded eye marks are missing...they all look alike, and different from mom--looks like you might have something!

great clutch I don't know what the big deal is with smaller snakes breeding in the wild do you think they wait till they 1500g, I don't think so if they are ready they are ready,nice babies.But I do understand that the bigger the female the better the clutch.

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Small YOUNG females...

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so the two rescues i have that are healthy weight, and atleast '05's... they are around 650-700 grams...

does this mean that it would be ok to breed them? i dont plan on it. but i am just curious

i have had these two sense january '07, and they were rescues that the zoo was adopting out... they started with me at 3 foot and 300g and now they are about 3.5' ish and as said 650-700 grams...

males are ok at that weight,im waiting till at least 900g,for mine.

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Originally Posted by ChicaPiton519

so the two rescues i have that are healthy weight, and atleast '05's... they are around 650-700 grams...

does this mean that it would be ok to breed them? i dont plan on it. but i am just curious

i have had these two sense january '07, and they were rescues that the zoo was adopting out... they started with me at 3 foot and 300g and now they are about 3.5' ish and as said 650-700 grams...

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If they truly are at least three years old I don't see why not. Either they'll produce eggs or they won't. In my experience it shouldn't cause them any harm either way.

Mark

well, from my knowledge, they were extreamly under weight, but 3 foot long when the zoo got them [they were part of the animal crulety case in milton florida august '06]
so i know that they are atleast '05 based on the care they got... they couldnt get that size [atleast not with the care they had] being '06 hatchlings...
they are perfectly healthy now, but stickin with the 650-700 range in weight...

Deff something new, i always wondered about in the wild what would happen... =]

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Originally Posted by Seneschal

They almost look like cinnies, with the black backs and patterning on the backs, and the overall darkness. There are also some dark edging in the brown areas around the black spots, like what you sometimes see on black pastels, although blushing and flames and faded eye marks are missing...they all look alike, and different from mom--looks like you might have something!

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Yeah, I was kind of surprised that the babies has such an interesting look to them. The father is a wild caught somewhat axanthic looking animal that was imported as an adult. I figured that the babies would look completely normal and that I'd have to breed him back to his daughters in a few years to see if his look is reproducible. I didn't expect black backs and such a dark color. They actually do have some decent flames on them too but they still have their shiny baby skin on them and I can't get decent pics. Maybe after they've shed.

Mark

I have heard that eggbound corn females die after a year or so of being eggbound. Does this happen with Balls?
Also if anyone knows about corns, could this trend be because an owner may not realize the female is eggbound until it has damaged her badly?

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Yeah, I was kind of surprised that the babies has such an interesting look to them. The father is a wild caught somewhat axanthic looking animal that was imported as an adult.

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Could we see a pic of him? I'm really interested now after seeing those babes pop out.

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Originally Posted by SecurityStacey

Could we see a pic of him? I'm really interested now after seeing those babes pop out.

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I actually posted a whole other thread on him and his offspring right here...

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=71654

It'll still be a few years before I know if I actually have something or not, but it's special projects like this I find to be really fun.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I actually posted a whole other thread on him and his offspring right here...

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=71654

It'll still be a few years before I know if I actually have something or not, but it's special projects like this I find to be really fun.

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Oh, ah ha. Wow... certainly something.