How Frequently Do You Feed Your BPs?

I'm new to BPs and am wondering how frequently a young BP should be fed?

My BP is 124 grams. I've been feeding him (an adult live mouse) every 10 days and he's gained 10 grams in just over a month. Is this a good gain or not?

I've read that if you feed too frequently they can fast and I want to avoid that happening.

I'm also going to be attempting to feed f/t tonight. Can you pre-scent the room with frozen?

for that size.. i would recommend 1 mouse a week.. n when it gets bigger like 2 feet long.. start giving it small rats once a week... but dont ever give it something u think it cant handle because i made that mistake once by giving my ball a huge rat.. and i would also recommend giving ur ball live mice instead of frozen.. i dont know why poeple even give it frozen food at all i guess some people are scared the mouse or rat will damage the snake but ive never had that problem and ive had my ball for 5 months

I'm switching to frozen because it's much safer for the snake. I won't put a live rat in with him when he's older. The last mouse I fed him got a bite in during constriction and I've been tending to the wound. Two meals prior to that, the mouse bit him too although not hard enough to do damage.

I feed babies every 5 days. When they start to refuse a meal on the 5 day schedule, I switch to once a week.

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Originally Posted by autumn75

I'm switching to frozen because it's much safer for the snake. I won't put a live rat in with him when he's older. The last mouse I fed him got a bite in during constriction and I've been tending to the wound. Two meals prior to that, the mouse bit him too although not hard enough to do damage.

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how big is ur snake? any rat or mouse ive ever givin 2 my ball has never even had a fighting chance because my BP bites and squeezes the life out of it.. ive rarely heard of a mouse or rat damaging the snake so ya i would just go with feeding live because i think its healthier, more exciting for the snake, and more enjoyable for the owner to watch

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Originally Posted by 51-50 Python

how big is ur snake? any rat or mouse ive ever givin 2 my ball has never even had a fighting chance because my BP bites and squeezes the life out of it.. ive rarely heard of a mouse or rat damaging the snake so ya i would just go with feeding live because i think its healthier, more exciting for the snake, and more enjoyable for the owner to watch

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Feeding should never be for the entertainment of the owner. It's not healthier or more exciting for the snake to feed live.

I do feed live exclusively myself, because I breed my own rats, but I didn't choose live for any of those reason.

Each owner should decide what works best for them.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Feeding should never be for the entertainment of the owner. It's not healthier or more exciting for the snake to feed live.

I do feed live exclusively myself, because I breed my own rats, but I didn't choose live for any of those reason.

Each owner should decide what works best for them.

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ur right each owner should decide what works best for them. But how would you know if feeding live isnt healthier i mean if u feed it frozen.. that thing has been frozen and then thawed its a whole process compared to feeding live which is fresh and more nutritious in my opinion.. and whats wrong with getting entertainment out of it i mean its ur snake u would like to think that its aggressive and could easily kill a mouse or rat.. to me i think its impressive.. my snake usually strikes at the rat the first second or two i toss it in there so it makes me feel good everytime it does

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Originally Posted by 51-50 Python

ur right each owner should decide what works best for them. But how would you know if feeding live isnt healthier i mean if u feed it frozen.. that thing has been frozen and then thawed its a whole process compared to feeding live which is fresh and more nutritious in my opinion.. and whats wrong with getting entertainment out of it i mean its ur snake u would like to think that its aggressive and could easily kill a mouse or rat.. to me i think its impressive.. my snake usually strikes at the rat the first second or two i toss it in there so it makes me feel good everytime it does

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Can you point me to a study that says that live is healthier and more exciting for the snake than f/t? The fact that there are thousands of animals feed f/t that are thriving in collections around the world is proof enough that f/t is no less healthy than feeding live.

I am impressed with my snakes and the fact that they are perfectly designed to dispatch their prey - but if entertainment value is the reason to choose to feed live, the keeper might want to re-think their reason for having a snake.

We feed our young snakes that size every 5 days :)

I'm going to have to agree with Robin. I feed live, but not for MY entertainment. In fact, once I'm sure everything's OK, I shut the lights off and let my snakes eat in privacy.

at the recommendation of a good friend, Brian from Chicago Reptile House, I feed my little guys (<600 grams) every 3 days. That's my schedule, that doesn't meant they follow it. I am very consious of who likes to eat often and who doesn't. I have one Mojave that will eat every two days if I put it in front of him. He has healthy stools, too, so he digestions just works a little faster. But then I have some that will only eat every 8-10 days. So, it all evens out. I'm on day 4 right now and I'm starting my feeding today.

I also breed my own rats, so I feed live. Even though I keep my rats in the same room, my guys and gals are real god about feeding time. Quick, successful kills everytime, right away.

I feed babies every 5 days till they hit 200g and then they go to every 7 days... Fed an appropriate sized meal once a week my snakes grow at about 100g per shed cycle (4-6 weeks)

I feed f/t weaned rats (30 grams) to my juvenile bp who is just under 200 grams. He is currently being switched from 5 days to 7 days, a few feedings at a time. Hes at 6 days right now. I think he will need 30-40 gram rats to not be hungry for a full 7 days at this point so he is being worked up to that size.

The reason I feed f/t is because it is much easier for me to keep frozen rats in the freezer than live, and I have witnessed a few bites from feeding live myself. On the other hand if my bp were to refuse f/t or stop eating I would feed live.

I have read that the freezing process destroys certain vitamins. It was in one of my herp journals from the States. Will let you know when I find it again

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Originally Posted by Jaluka

I have read that the freezing process destroys certain vitamins. It was in one of my herp journals from the States. Will let you know when I find it again

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That may be, but since no one has done a study on the nutritional requirements of ball pythons, that information is rendered meaningless in terms of what is better for your snake. As long as your snake is eating, growing, shedding and defecating on what you feed it - it's all good.

I feed all my ball pythons every 7 days;sunday usually between 6-8pm. I have nothing but healthy looking snakes, that are loving life.:snake:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

That may be, but since no one has done a study on the nutritional requirements of ball pythons, that information is rendered meaningless in terms of what is better for your snake. As long as your snake is eating, growing, shedding and defecating on what you feed it - it's all good.

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Hate to burst your bubble, but if it has more nutritional value, its better for your snake right? Nutritionally to say the least :D

I started feeding Furio f/t Hoppers once every 7 days (Thursdays) before I had him on Fuzzies every 5 days but it was way to easy for him and he wasn't plumping up at all. So I join the f/t club as I don't breed my own feeders.

I feed youngsters of both species (I have BPs and corns) every 5 days until they reach 100g, then they move to every 7 days.

I really can't wait until my young snakes can move up, since the 5 day schedule is kinda weird, mixed up, and difficult for a full-time student to remember. :)

Which ones? We have our little ones on a 5-6 day schedule. Our sub adults are on a 6-7 day schedule. Our adults are on a 7-8 day schedule. When our first girl brakes 2500 grams she will go on a 8-9 day schedule and then a little over 3000 grams is when we figure a 9-10 day schedule could be used.

What about parasites? Isn't that an advantage to feeding f/t?

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Originally Posted by Waffles13ilj

What about parasites? Isn't that an advantage to feeding f/t?

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u mean as in live mice have parasites and frozen ones dont? plenty of ppl feed live mice and have never had a problem with parasites

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Originally Posted by Morph Addict

Hate to burst your bubble, but if it has more nutritional value, its better for your snake right? Nutritionally to say the least :D

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Not necessarily - hypothetically, if live has more Vitamin D than f/t for example, but ball pythons require less Vitamin D than f/t - is it better for them or not? Both will meet their requirements. But since we don't know what their nutritional requirements are, we can't say that one is superior to the other.

We know that Vitamin C is good for us, but we also know that too much Vitamin C is not good for us.

Maybe mine eats like a horse? He eats about every 4 days and downs 2 fuzzies. Usually I can tell on the 3rd night or so he is hungry because he is hunting in the tank for food all night long.
He is about 16" long.. weight unknown... He looks fat and happy..

I feed my baby and juvi balls every 5 days. Until they hit 1000 grams or close to it. My sub adults and adults get offered every 7 days. As to is one way more nutritional I'm really not sure anyone can offer that answer with 100% certainty at this point. As a whole we know very little about snakes and their true nutritional needs. We offer feeder that are more available and easier to deal with and it seems to work.

Well, how do we know how often they eat in the wild? Does somebody chill out for a couple of weeks and follows one BP to see it's feeding habits? Or are we just guessing they should eat once a week?

I feed live because.. well, there are no F/T rats in the wild.

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Originally Posted by WaRocker

Maybe mine eats like a horse? He eats about every 4 days and downs 2 fuzzies. Usually I can tell on the 3rd night or so he is hungry because he is hunting in the tank for food all night long.
He is about 16" long.. weight unknown... He looks fat and happy..

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Instead of feeding so frequently perhaps you should up your prey size. You can grab a digital scale for $20 from wal-mart to weigh your snake to help get a better idea of what size prey he should get. I was feeding my juvenile bp fuzzies for a few weeks when I first got him (fuzzy mice) and quickly noticed he was simply still hungry all the time. That was because I wasn't feeding him enough... I moved him up to hoppers that were about 20 grams and he was still hunting every few days so now he is at 30 gram rats.

It is also easier for you to feed a bigger prey item then several small, but of course it is up to you how you want to feed your bp. As long as he has a full belly and is putting on weight (another reason a scale is a good idea) then its all good:).

I feed f/t. The python tends to be less aggressive and it's safer for the snake. She doesn't even constrict, she knows what she's getting and she's greatful for it. F/t is more humane. Feeding live also gives us herps a bad rep with the general public. When the public starts getting scared, they start proposing bans. You really should rethink your purpose for owning a snake if you got it for the entertainment value. A starving dog could eat a cat and get plenty of nutrition that way, but are you going to stop feeding it dog food? No, b/c no one should be entertained by a creature getting slaughtered.

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Originally Posted by WaRocker

Maybe mine eats like a horse? He eats about every 4 days and downs 2 fuzzies. Usually I can tell on the 3rd night or so he is hungry because he is hunting in the tank for food all night long.
He is about 16" long.. weight unknown... He looks fat and happy..

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I've got the same deal with mine. She's 21" & 140g now. She was 19.5" & 120g when I got her 3 weeks ago. She's not obese, but she'll down 2 fuzzies and she's on the prowl again by day 3. I took her to the vet for her intial (general) checkup and the vet said she's pretty healthy but I could bump her up to two feedings a week. Now I feed her 2 fuzzies every 3-4 days. She's in her first shed right now.

Rather than feeding multiple fuzzies, try going up in prey size. Any snake should really only get a single prey item per feeding...unless that snake is just too large for any one reasonable prey item. (such as an adult female BP mouser).

Unless, of course, your snake just refuses to eat larger prey...like mine. Which is probably why she's underweight for her age. Nagini absolutely refuses to have anything to do with a mouse larger than just weaned. She's still small enough girth wise that this isn't a concern...and maybe I'll try offering food every 5 days to see if she takes it, but the point is you feed your snake whatever it will happily accept as often as it will accept it.

To answer the thread question I feed every Friday... and they eat readily.

To put in my two cents about the Live vs. F/T...

I am not going to knock anyones tried and true methods of feeding... It is your choice on how you want to feed the snake. This is only my opinion ... I personally feed Stunned Live. I think the only reason F/T exists is for the conveniece of the human and not for the benefit of the snake. I am going to to split this into a couple key points.

1. Nature designed our snakes to hunt and kill live prey. Snakes are not scavengers. Maybe it happens but I have never heard of a wild snake ingesting something that was dead when they found it. It is one of my snakes primal intinctual behaviors to find that warm little animal... attack, constrict them and swallow them. I personally think it is borderline cruel to keep a captive snake and neglect them of this behavior. When a snake stops contricting before it eats... That is sad, as it is just loosing touch with it's natural behaviors.

This is my Favorite point to make on this issue...
What if we forced you to eat Mushed up food through a straw for the rest of your life because there was a danger of you chipping a tooth on a bone. No more chewing cause it's dangerous... Even though that is what we have our teeth for! Eventually our jaw muscles would turn incredibly weak. Then if we ever wanted to use our teeth again they would be almost useless becasue your jaws muscles are worthless. A snake contricting it's food is like us chewing... It's how they were designed to do it. Don't neglect them of chewing their food!

You are forcing your snake to feed in an unnatural way until that is all he used to. Not Good. It is extremely rare for a snake to take F/T on the first try because snakes are not built to recognize dead things as prey... I hate saying it like this but sadly this is what happens... The owner decides F/T is the more convenient way to go (You can easily feed a freshly killed or stunned mouse to the snake... Why crappy frozen stuff???... Becasue it's convenient for YOU)... Then they start trying to feed F/T and most of the time the only way to get a snake to take it is to let it starve until it decides that it will take the F/T. I know "Starve" sounds bad; But a natural predator is only going to take a dead prey item if it is tricked to think that it is alive, or is starving and takes it as a last resort.

2. My Snakes Deserve the Freshems'!!! I looked and looked but I can't find the article I was reding on this. But in a live rat everything is as fresh as could be. The Brain Fluids, Bone Marrow, Oxygenation Level in the blood... are all very good for your snake. All of these things are gone or degraded in F/T. Snakes can survive on F/T... and whether or not you can tell a difference in health on one fed F/T vs Live is very hard to tell, you would have to consider behavior as well as vitamin and nutrient levels. Personally if you ask me the healthier snake would be the one can best exercise their natural instictual behaviors without an issue. A snake fed F/T for years would probably have no idea how to handle a live prey item as he has not been allowed to feed that way... The way nature intended them to eat.

3. Humane? C'mon this is the oldest animal activity on earth... Animals eat eachother... All the way down to Bacterial level... In order for one life to live... something else must die. It works that way for every living organism on earth. This is why rodents have so many babies... Becuase they serve as such a vital part in the food chain feeding larger predators. The only possible down side for the snake that I could possibly think of from feeding live would be the risk of possible injury from defensive prey. 99 out of 100 times if you are feeding the proper sized prey item to a healthy hungry snake... There will be no injury. There will always be that risk though which is a little to big for some... Maybe even me...

So considering all of the above... I just take the paper bag and give it a good smack on the ground before I dump them in. The rat is alive, warm and moving... Just has the wits knocked out... And there is virtually no risk of him trying to fight back.

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Originally Posted by FireproofGorilla

I feed f/t. The python tends to be less aggressive and it's safer for the snake. She doesn't even constrict, she knows what she's getting and she's greatful for it. F/t is more humane. Feeding live also gives us herps a bad rep with the general public. When the public starts getting scared, they start proposing bans. You really should rethink your purpose for owning a snake if you got it for the entertainment value. A starving dog could eat a cat and get plenty of nutrition that way, but are you going to stop feeding it dog food? No, b/c no one should be entertained by a creature getting slaughtered.

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While I don't advocate feeding live for the entertainment value, I DO feed live and have never fed anything other than live. I also do not stun. I've got over 3000 live prey fed off under my belt, and I've never experienced an injury to any of my snakes. And if I even had ONE injury, that would make the real risk less than 1%, .0003% to be exact.

About half of our members here feed live (at least those who have responded to past polls), as do many respected ball python breeders. Feeding live is only dangerous when done incorrectly (feeding prey that's far too large for example - an adult really only needs small/small rats, not medium or large, people leaving live in overnight, etc)

We advocate each keeper feeding what works best for them - for me, it's live.

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Originally Posted by FireproofGorilla

I've got the same deal with mine. She's 21" & 140g now. She was 19.5" & 120g when I got her 3 weeks ago. She's not obese, but she'll down 2 fuzzies and she's on the prowl again by day 3. I took her to the vet for her intial (general) checkup and the vet said she's pretty healthy but I could bump her up to two feedings a week. Now I feed her 2 fuzzies every 3-4 days. She's in her first shed right now.

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Fuzzy mice or rats? A newly hatched ball python can take a hopper mouse (eyes and ears just opened) as their first meal. I feed babies either large rat fuzzies or mouse hoppers about every five days.

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

To answer the thread question I feed every Friday... and they eat readily.

To put in my two cents about the Live vs. F/T...
I am not going to knock anyones tried and true methods of feeding... It is your choice on how you want to feed the snake. This is only my opinion ... I personally feed Stunned Live. I think the only reason F/T exists is for the conveniece of the human and not for the benefit of the snake. I am going to to split this into a couple key points.


This is my Favorite point to make on this issue...
What if we forced you to eat Mushed up food through a straw for the rest of your life because there was a danger of you chipping a tooth on a bone. No more chewing cause it's dangerous... Even though that is what we have our teeth for! Eventually our jaw muscles would turn incredibly weak. Then if we ever wanted to use our teeth again they would be almost useless becasue your jaws muscles are worthless. A snake constricting it's food is like us chewing... It's how they were designed to do it. Don't neglect them of chewing their food!

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I appreciate your opinion and would like to agree with you, but honestly I do not believe my bp even knows the f/t I feed him are dead. My bp has been fed both live and f/t prey and has never rejected either. I would also like to say that in no way are you "forcing" your snake to eat when feeding f/t, unless you are using hemostats to force-feed which is a whole different issue.

And on the topic of constriction compared to chewing, well my bp strikes and constricts for 10 minutes every feed, so I don't see what activity he may be lacking from eating f/t.

I feed f/t because to keep live mice at my house is not an option because I have severe allergies. Besides that, I do not want to keep them, and to pick one up every week would be silly because I am in the country and would have to drive 45 minutes to get live mice. I am also not bashing anyones opinions and totally agree with those who choose to feed live, but don't jump the gun on those that feed f/t.

My BP Slyder is still quite young, and takes one live adult mouse every 5 days. :) I was trying to feed smaller F/T prey and he didn't want anything to do with them.

I feed every 6 days. Since I work a 24hr on 48hr off work schedule a 7 day cycle doesn't work for me since I would be at work on feeding day once every three weeks.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

That may be, but since no one has done a study on the nutritional requirements of ball pythons, that information is rendered meaningless in terms of what is better for your snake. As long as your snake is eating, growing, shedding and defecating on what you feed it - it's all good.

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i totally hear you robin but... isn't a snake out in the wild eating live? isn't as close to nature best?

personally i choose to feed live because it's as close as i can get to giving my snake something to fuel it's natural instincts while still living in my home, in a bin.

another thing i'd love to toss in here... i believe feeding rats or mice you have grown and fed yourself can be better, because you know what they are eating. if you are feeding a healthy balanced varied diet... and you keep them in optimal conditions... then you can feel good about what you are giving your snake.

just my two cents...

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

i totally hear you robin but... isn't a snake out in the wild eating live? isn't as close to nature best?

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Yes it is. However, there are keepers that are unable to feed live (UK members for example). I do not believe that their animals are any less healthy than those feeding live.

Now remember, I'm a live feeder, but I don't think anyone can conclusively say that live is healthier nutrition wise than f/t, nor can they make conclusively say that rats are better than mice.

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Originally Posted by missi182

I appreciate your opinion and would like to agree with you, but honestly I do not believe my bp even knows the f/t I feed him are dead. My bp has been fed both live and f/t prey and has never rejected either. I would also like to say that in no way are you "forcing" your snake to eat when feeding f/t, unless you are using hemostats to force-feed which is a whole different issue.

And on the topic of constriction compared to chewing, well my bp strikes and constricts for 10 minutes every feed, so I don't see what activity he may be lacking from eating f/t.

I feed f/t because to keep live mice at my house is not an option because I have severe allergies. Besides that, I do not want to keep them, and to pick one up every week would be silly because I am in the country and would have to drive 45 minutes to get live mice. I am also not bashing anyones opinions and totally agree with those who choose to feed live, but don't jump the gun on those that feed f/t.

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I didn't want to seem like I was jumping the gun on people who feed F/T...I completely believe that it is up to the keeper to make the educated decision on which method is best for them and their snake. Please Know.. No knocking intended as I respect yours and all the other members opinions regardless of how they feed. I made the chewing analogy because someone had posted above that they fed their snake F/T and now it doesn't even constrict it's food anymore. Feeding F/T works fine for a lot of people... But personally if my snake stop constricting I would worry and start slowly weening them back to live. That is where that analogy came from. I live walking distance to where I buy my rats so luckily I don't have to worry about keeping them here...

I have seen a lot of cases where the snake will not take F/T the first shot... It happens a lot to people trying to switch a snake over. When it doesn't take... they don't turn around and offer live. They continue to offer F/T until the snake finally takes it... sometimes weeks later. Why?... who really knows... but I would be willing to bet it was hunger and lack of the food they were looking for. It is not force feeding by definition, but if i refused something and was offered that item and that 1 item only until I caved to eat it from hunger or lack of options..I would consider that being forced to eat it. What would happen if a person bought a bulk F/T pack... and the snake refused to eat it for weeks on end?? I would be willing to bet that before we would see a live rat we would see the hemostats come out.

I apologize if that seemed cynical in any way... and know That I am completely aware that there are plenty of happy F/T pounding snakes out there. What I described above is only an issue SOMETIMES...But I mention it because that is my single biggest issue with F/T. If a snake readily takes f/t and can't tell the difference then hey... I see nothing really wrong with it if that what you want to do. But don't starve a snake until he decides to take dead prey... That is simply breaking a creature of it's natural instincts.

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

I apologize if that seemed cynical in any way... and know That I am completely aware that there are plenty of happy F/T pounding snakes out there. What I described above is only an issue SOMETIMES...But I mention it because that is my single biggest issue with F/T. If a snake readily takes f/t and can't tell the difference then hey... I see nothing really wrong with it if that what you want to do. But don't starve a snake until he decides to take dead prey... That is simply breaking a creature of it's natural instincts.

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Well as you said this is only your opinion and further emphasis on the reasoning behind your opinion shows that you respect the chosen methods of other owners and that is admirable. I totally see where you are coming from, even if I do not agree with you 100%, you do make some good points. Good for you to defend your opinion in a proper and respectable manor.

This thread has been hijacked, but It's bound to happen when feeding is involved. ;)

I feed live, and ever 7 days or so.

SoCaliSon and rabernet thanks for those posts, Kudos. I wholeheartedly think it's up to the keeper as to what to feed their snakes. But ya'lls posts just made me feel much better about feeding live. I've never had any problems feeding live, nor do I know any snake keepers personally that have had problems feeding live.

It doesn't seem to be a prevailing feeling here, but I've been to other forums where if you're feeding live, you're almost crucified. It's just pure ignorance. It can be done safely.

Also, just to add to the humane argument... Yeah your snake can kill live prey, but it's extremely efficient and humane. Then compare that to some of the ways humans kill the food that we eat. Ever visit a slaughter house? Thats far less humane than how a snake dispatches prey. Ever see a hunter kill deer, or bear, or... fill in the blank?

Just goes to show there is a double standard when it comes to feeding snakes.

That's just my .02. :)

J.B.

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Originally Posted by J.Bissell

This thread has been hijacked, but It's bound to happen when feeding is involved. ;)

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Few threads stick to the topic 100% and the discussion about what kind of prey owners use is relevant, I think 'hijacking' a thread is more when it goes completely off topic. Anyway, learning in fun right:) and your 2 cents add to the 'learning'.

Thanks for the Kudos J.Biss ...

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Originally Posted by missi182

Anyway, learning in fun right:) and your 2 cents add to the 'learning'.

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I completely agree...

I find that the knowledge of experienced peers is priceless. We can read about the bottom line facts... But the dialog that takes place in these educated discussions/debates is where true progressive learning takes place. We should never stop questioning what we do.:gj:

I totally agree with you, Argentra, to a point. Mila's not quite big enough (in my opinion) for a larger prey item. BPs will eat 2-3 prey items in a sitting. In their natural habitat, BPs infiltrate rat/mouse holes and eat the several mice inside. Then they rest in the exsisting burrow to digest. The size of the prey item should be no longer than twice the length of the snake's head and no wider than the widest part of the body. Mila's just not there yet. I'll have no problem giving her larger prey items when she's ready, not me. I'll usually offer her three items, but she knows when she's done. She usually only eats two and I'll just refreeze the remaining one (another benefit of feeding f/t for you pro-live out there). I'm not totally against feeding live. For instance, if you've tried everything you can, feed live as a last resort. But be patient and strong, Mila doesn't like her f/t mice dangled in front of her (some do). She just likes them warmed and set in front of her. She'll sniff'em out for about 10-20 mins, but then she just swallows'em!

After this shed (which should come off within the next 48 hours due to the fact that she's no longer "in blue"), she'll undoubtedly be ready for a small mouse. I'm against Powerfeeding for size as well, because studies show that Powerfeeding can cut your snake's lifespan by 75%! (i.e. a 20-30 year lifespan is now cut down to 5-6 years) I have yet to see a powereater over the age of 6 years old.

I had a BP in HS that had complications with a small mouse. Us herps just need to be careful not to overdue it or underdo it. A snake feeding is one of God's works of art. We all know that there's a medium we must follow to insure the healthiest, happiest and long-lived possible pets we can! Keep up the good work, people!

That's exactly what I mean. I want the burger, I don't want to slit the cow's throat. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to eat it b/c we're omnivores. My body knows it needs the fats, lipids, proteins, and vitamins that I can't get elsewhere. Snakes get everything from one meal (calcium from the bones, etc.). It is ultimately the decision of the keeper. I just recommend f/t. It's safer and I don't have to watch either animal suffer or get hurt.

However, a snake that is fed live prey is very unlikely to convert to f/t. Some will only eat live. I'll tell you to do whatever benefits your reptile the most. Mine just happens to be a f/t eater. If your snake only eats live, feed it live. By no means is anyone to starve their snake. No animal deserves that as it is a very painful and cruel experience.

But if you're just in this for the live feedings, you may want to reconsider your means of owning a snake.

This is a classic debate in the herp society. Watch some professional breeders (http://www.snakebytes.tv), they feed f/t/pre-killed to their biggest monsters. Who am I to tell you how to feed your child? That's not what I'm doing. I'm simply providing information to those who want it, the very purpose of the forums.

* Bissell, when I say "you" or "your" in this post, it's implying all herps. None of my comments are directly objected to you or your reptiles. I simply quoted you b/c your post sparked this post. Thanks for the post!:gj:

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Originally Posted by J.Bissell

This thread has been hijacked, but It's bound to happen when feeding is involved. ;)

I feed live, and ever 7 days or so.

SoCaliSon and rabernet thanks for those posts, Kudos. I wholeheartedly think it's up to the keeper as to what to feed their snakes. But ya'lls posts just made me feel much better about feeding live. I've never had any problems feeding live, nor do I know any snake keepers personally that have had problems feeding live.

It doesn't seem to be a prevailing feeling here, but I've been to other forums where if you're feeding live, you're almost crucified. It's just pure ignorance. It can be done safely.

Also, just to add to the humane argument... Yeah your snake can kill live prey, but it's extremely efficient and humane. Then compare that to some of the ways humans kill the food that we eat. Ever visit a slaughter house? Thats far less humane than how a snake dispatches prey. Ever see a hunter kill deer, or bear, or... fill in the blank?

Just goes to show there is a double standard when it comes to feeding snakes.

That's just my .02. :)

J.B.

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I disagree with you, CaliSon. I don't doubt that if given live, Mila would constrict to kill. I just don't want a rat taking a piece of her on the way out. I can see where you're coming from though. However, I fail to see where a snake constricting is comparable to a human chewing. I'm not worried about her chipping a tooth on a mouse, which is what your post implies. Let me provide counterpoint:

1. Nature designed us to hunt and kill animals to eat as well. How do you explain vegetarians? I agree that constricting is instinct, therefore, how could a snake forget or lose touch with it? Breathing, eating, and survival are all instincts. Have you forgotten how to do any of the above?

I am not forcing my snake to do or not do anything. She is very free-willed. If she stops eating f/t, then I'll move her to live. She evidently has no problem with it. I've never forced her to do anything.

2. There is no evidence or studies to support your claim of "degraded" nutrients in frozen food. How many frozen foods do we eat? If I put whey protein into a frozen shake, is the protein going to "degrade"? No. I'll still reap the full benefits than if I put it in water. O2 freezes, the SpO2 levels in frozen, unclotted blood is the same in thawed. When your snake kills that rat, the SpO2 drops rapidly. They get their O2 from the environment like every creature on earth does, so I'm sorry if I don't see this as an issue. The snake's SpO2 is important, not the food's.

I'm not bashing your live feedings. I'm just defending my stance on the subject like I should. That's what makes a good debate!

But, SoCaliSon, I'm sure you're a great keeper b/c you obviously care very much for your reptile(s) and that's all it takes to make me happy. We just need every herp as involved as you in the care of their creatures! So, thank you for showing your enthusiasm and concern! :salute:

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

To answer the thread question I feed every Friday... and they eat readily.

To put in my two cents about the Live vs. F/T...

I am not going to knock anyones tried and true methods of feeding... It is your choice on how you want to feed the snake. This is only my opinion ... I personally feed Stunned Live. I think the only reason F/T exists is for the conveniece of the human and not for the benefit of the snake. I am going to to split this into a couple key points.

1. Nature designed our snakes to hunt and kill live prey. Snakes are not scavengers. Maybe it happens but I have never heard of a wild snake ingesting something that was dead when they found it. It is one of my snakes primal intinctual behaviors to find that warm little animal... attack, constrict them and swallow them. I personally think it is borderline cruel to keep a captive snake and neglect them of this behavior. When a snake stops contricting before it eats... That is sad, as it is just loosing touch with it's natural behaviors.

This is my Favorite point to make on this issue...
What if we forced you to eat Mushed up food through a straw for the rest of your life because there was a danger of you chipping a tooth on a bone. No more chewing cause it's dangerous... Even though that is what we have our teeth for! Eventually our jaw muscles would turn incredibly weak. Then if we ever wanted to use our teeth again they would be almost useless becasue your jaws muscles are worthless. A snake contricting it's food is like us chewing... It's how they were designed to do it. Don't neglect them of chewing their food!

You are forcing your snake to feed in an unnatural way until that is all he used to. Not Good. It is extremely rare for a snake to take F/T on the first try because snakes are not built to recognize dead things as prey... I hate saying it like this but sadly this is what happens... The owner decides F/T is the more convenient way to go (You can easily feed a freshly killed or stunned mouse to the snake... Why crappy frozen stuff???... Becasue it's convenient for YOU)... Then they start trying to feed F/T and most of the time the only way to get a snake to take it is to let it starve until it decides that it will take the F/T. I know "Starve" sounds bad; But a natural predator is only going to take a dead prey item if it is tricked to think that it is alive, or is starving and takes it as a last resort.

2. My Snakes Deserve the Freshems'!!! I looked and looked but I can't find the article I was reding on this. But in a live rat everything is as fresh as could be. The Brain Fluids, Bone Marrow, Oxygenation Level in the blood... are all very good for your snake. All of these things are gone or degraded in F/T. Snakes can survive on F/T... and whether or not you can tell a difference in health on one fed F/T vs Live is very hard to tell, you would have to consider behavior as well as vitamin and nutrient levels. Personally if you ask me the healthier snake would be the one can best exercise their natural instictual behaviors without an issue. A snake fed F/T for years would probably have no idea how to handle a live prey item as he has not been allowed to feed that way... The way nature intended them to eat.

3. Humane? C'mon this is the oldest animal activity on earth... Animals eat eachother... All the way down to Bacterial level... In order for one life to live... something else must die. It works that way for every living organism on earth. This is why rodents have so many babies... Becuase they serve as such a vital part in the food chain feeding larger predators. The only possible down side for the snake that I could possibly think of from feeding live would be the risk of possible injury from defensive prey. 99 out of 100 times if you are feeding the proper sized prey item to a healthy hungry snake... There will be no injury. There will always be that risk though which is a little to big for some... Maybe even me...

So considering all of the above... I just take the paper bag and give it a good smack on the ground before I dump them in. The rat is alive, warm and moving... Just has the wits knocked out... And there is virtually no risk of him trying to fight back.

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Alright!!:gj: Nice constructive debate going... I agree with some of the points you make Gorilla... I just wanted to clarify a couple of things that may have been taken wrong.

First with the chewing analogy... I like to try to create comparisons in which people can directly relate to incease effectivness. We have teeth becasue chewing is the first step in the human digestive process. We all know snakes don't chew their food... Instead the first step for them in digesting is to contsrict to kill. We get our food ready to swallow by chewing... they do it by constricting. The analogy was meant to show that to feed f/t becasue your snake might get injured while contricting live prey, would be like somebody serving you perchewed food your entire life through a straw out of the danger you might chip a tooth while chewing. You could argue whether you blend a burger or eat it in bites you will get all the same stuff... But think about the mental effect that years of not being able to exercise your natural feeding behavior would have on you, Even if you were raised like that from birth and you never chewed a bite in your life. Not to mention long term physical muscular effects.

You said..."I agree that constricting is instinct, therefore, how could a snake forget or lose touch with it?"

Some snakes take F/T in the same way they would take a live rat... With attack... contriction... ingestion...
IMO if your snakes stops contricting it is time to start taking steps to get them back into the habit. Because the fact is that you CAN break an animal of it's intinctual behaviors, especially in captive bred animals. All you have to do is provide an environment where they do not need to exercise those behaviors for an extended amount of time. Put a perfectly healthy person a machine that breathes for them for years... Then take them off of it... Chances are they have lost touch eith the area of the brain that automatically tells you to breathe.

As far as the Vegetarian argument that is a whole different debate I will try not to get to far into. I will make just a couple points... The two pointy teeth in my mouth are obviously not there for chewing salad. While studying anthropolgy I learned that there was actually an early race of hominid dating back thousands of years that was entirely vegetarian... Wanna guess what happened??? They died off.


"There is no evidence or studies to support your claim of "degraded" nutrients in frozen food."

As far as nutrition goes... Everything I said above about the oxygenation level in the blood ... and the freshness of fluids in the tissue ... Those are all true. It is the same with the food we freeze for our own human consumption. With the features of the human body we can easily tell who is healthy and who maybe doesn't eat the best. Snakes are different. All we really look at to determine a snakes health is that it eats, that it sheds, and that it sh*ts. Does that mean that those are the only factors related to their health? A person fed junk food their entire life still eats, grows, and defecates... But that by no means does it say that the person is in good health. There is still a lot of research to be done as far as health and nutrition in snakes go, but to accept that you are doing everything right for your snake because it eats sheds and poops I think is falling short because a sickly or malnurished animal could do the same thing. There was a great point in the article i found ( I will post a link bellow)... But it was along these lines. Take your newborn baby to the doctor and tell him that you are planning on raising your baby on frozen food alone and they will call child protective services on you. Maybe a baby could survive on a frozen food diet...but would obviously would not be as healthy as if they were allowed to eat fresh food and who knows what kind of long term effects would be suffered. I think it is obvious... Fresh food will always offer more benifit than something frozen for an extended amount of time. It is even different in this case cause in frozen human food we have preservatives and additives that help offset what gets lost in freezing... Frozen Thawed Rats get nothing! The point is made... That if nothing is lost in Freezing food... Then why do the frozen food companies go through the extensive time and effort required to add these preservatives to our frozen foods?

Read this article from VMSHerp "http://www.vmsherp.com/LCLivevsFrozen.htm"... It has a lot of good info that should be considered. Most I have paraphrased above.

And once again... No hostility intended. I love these educated discussions. :)

One more note i forgot to add...

If you ask me... The way they do it in nature is what we should offer them in captivity... Regardless of what we can stomach watching... Or what the snake will eat( I could get my snake to try to eat a water baloon if I wanted to, doesn't mean that he should eat it.) We as humans know that wild animals can be broke a trained to endure almost any situation we choose to keep them in... For the sake of the animals we should keep them as close to their nature as possible. I personally don't agree with keeping an animal captive... and then altering their lifestyle even more for our own convenice in keeping them.

:D

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Originally Posted by FireproofGorilla

I'm not bashing your live feedings. I'm just defending my stance on the subject like I should. That's what makes a good debate!

But, SoCaliSon, I'm sure you're a great keeper b/c you obviously care very much for your reptile(s) and that's all it takes to make me happy. We just need every herp as involved as you in the care of their creatures! So, thank you for showing your enthusiasm and concern! :salute:

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Same here man! I am glad you do state your arguments and reasoning. Keeps fuel on the critical thinking fire. We are all on here because we love our animals and wnat to do what is best for them. In stating what I have learned in my research along with my opinion I am not trying to say that "I am right and you are wrong"... Just pointing out what maybe other people may not have considered yet. Hope Everybody is having a delightfull Monday!

Great article SoCal!

I totally agree with the vegetarians dying off. You ever seen a vegetarian? They're all gaunt and yellow (Ron White reference, just a joke).

It's not that I can't stomach watching my snake pwn a mouse. I just don't think it's neccessary thus far. I do agree with you in that there is nothing fresher than live. However, I have no evidence that shows that it's better than f/t.

Of course there are many ways to observe the health of a snake. Shedding, defacating (checking urates for the right consistency and if there's moisture in the stool to observe dehydration), and eating. I would also take the BPs activity level as a BIG determining factor in health. Mila is active when she needs to be (night, dusk, etc.). If that were to change (other than being in shed or digesting), I would become very concerned.

I found that article. I found it very informative. My problem with live was that I was prekilling the food and sometimes my snake wouldn't eat. But, if it's best for her health, I will consider it. But, the article failed to state (in regards to the bacteria and salmonella that could be in f/t) that those bacteria and salmonella are equally as likely to appear in live.

Another reason that I feed f/t is that I know where I'm getting my food source from (I would urge all snake owners to research their food source prior to buying). My f/t ARE freshly frozen. I don't keep any frozen prey item longer than 20 days.

"Attempt to minimize the exposure to room temperatures. Thaw as quickly as possible, and offer immediately to your snake. Remove uneaten rodents quickly from the cage, in thirty minutes or less. many keepers will use the microwave oven to quickly thaw rodents. We don't recommend this for several reasons: It's easy to overheat the rodent and burn your snake. It's easy to accidentally cook portions of the meat (which reptiles cannot digest properly). It exposes your microwave oven to the same potential diseases as discussed above. many keepers will place the rodent inside a Ziploc bag and thaw in warm water. This greatly increases the rate of thawing and is the preferred method."

I totally agree with this statement and it's how I've been feeding my f/t the whole time. Do NOT nuke any prey item. I make sure the prey items I've thawed out are body temperature prior to feeding.

I don't know everything. I'm not claiming to. I'm not a veternarian either. From the looks of it, us herps seem to have more knowledge than alot of vets out there! But it's still no substitute. My snake's health is the important part. And I'm glad for your input and that article, SoCal. If Mila's attitude, demeanor, or health changes, I can now include this as a possible cause if she's asymptomatic.

Here's one of my problems with live feedings, I'm sure most of you are smart enough not to leave a live rodent in one of your reptile's cages unattended. But, here's a pic of what could happen (I'm sure alot of people have seen this picture):

http://www.proexotics.com/graphics/b...ive_prey_1.jpg
http://www.proexotics.com/FAQ2.html

(this site is not my only source of information but it is a good one. I'm not that stupid, although my girlfriend might disagree. It all depends on where you get your information.)

I mention high quality frozen rodents for a reason. Years ago, frozen rodents were more difficult to find. I can remember receiving full size trash bags of frozen mice, various sizes, perhaps 1500 in the bag, and it certainly looked less than appetizing. Convincing our snakes to eat such ugly mice was not quite as simple, and the smell was terrible. No one wants their snake eating rotten meat. "Feeder Suppliers" sold mice and rats that had been refrozen two or three times, or rodents that were wet when they were frozen, and the resulting thaw was one gooey, unusable mess.

The store down the street is run by a friend of mine. I know he breeds his own feeders and keeps them VERY healthy. He wouldn't sell me something that's been frozen twice over or frozen for an extended period of time. I give every prey item a good exam before offering it to my snake (everyone should do this). Look at the item before you buy it and after you thaw it. Make sure it's pink, DRY, and warm (not nuked). It should still look like a healthy mouse/rat even though it's dead. You'll know a bad one when you see it. You shouldn't see any dependant lividity (blood pooling in the abdomen or any other portion of the body), this would imply the item was dead for HOURS before it was frozen. The joints should move readily. There shouldn't be any rigamortis in a prey item. Uneaten prey items should be removed immediately and I wouldn't refreeze anything that was allow to get to room temperature more than once. If she doesn't take it at the second offering (which has yet to be an issue), she ain't gettin' it!

On a side note, I'm a Medic Firefighter in VA (if yall couldn't tell by the pic). SoCal, I took a patient in the medic THIS morning for vomiting since 8pm last night. They sedated him and intubated him after I dropped him off. A friend of mine that works at the hospital said he coded (lost pulse and stopped breathing) TWICE after we left. HE WAS A VEGETARIAN! How weird is it that that would happen while we're talking about this?

Yall have a good week!