Forced feeding

I have a friend who raised african beauty snakes (that's what she called them atleast) and i was talking to her about Hadiya and how she isn't eating. I have a vet appointment for after payday on the first so i can get her checked. My friend was telling me that if hadiay doesn't take to rats or mice, I should force feed her. Take a small mouse that's been pre killed and force it down her throat. I don't like this concept, since the snakes jaw an throat are really delicate and have to stretch and do certain things in order to digest.

is there any reason to really force feed? Is it even safe to do? She's been trying to get me to let her force feed Hadiya, but other than not eating and the tick problem, she isn't loosing weight so I don't want to do anything without the vet's diagnosis.

Ticks are a sure fire sign that your snake is a Wild Caught animal. It takes loads of time sometimes to get a W/C animal to eat some never eat. Take her to the vet and then go from there.

P.S Force feeding is a traumatic stressful event for any snake but could only amplify your problem if your is a wild caught.

Force feeding is a last ditch effort and should never be done by an inexperienced keeper. I wouldn't even try it.

As for force-feeding this should be done as a last resort when everything else has failed.

Can you tell us more about your BP and it's setting?

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As your BP ever ate for you?

How long have you had your snake for?

How old is your BP?

How big is your BP (weight)?

What type of enclosure do you use?

How big is your enclosure?

Is your enclosure in a low traffic area?

What are your temps (cool & warm side)?

What is your humidity?

What type of thermometer/hygrometer do you use (dial,stick,or digital)?

What kind of hides do you provide (log, homemade, cubbyholes etc) and how many do you have?

Are your hides tight (all side touching your BP's body) and identical?

How often do you handle your BP?

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Also often BP with ticks do have internal parasites so I would have a fecal done just in case!

This makes me sad. NO you or your friend should not force feed your snake, take her to the vet. It is very likely the ticks are causing a great level of stress on her so she is not interested in eating. If your husbandry is not correct, that would be another reason she may not eat. Some bp's fast for 6 months at a time, and owners still do not force feed. Once you are sure she is tick/mite free, and her enclosure is just right and the vet has confirmed she is healthy, then you can worry if she still doesn't eat.

You should be much more concerned about getting the tick problem cleaned up and checking and double checking that her temperature/humidity/cleanliness is spot on before you worry about cramming dinner down her throat. It just makes me sick whenever I hear someone being told to force feed. Good for you to ask questions and make sure you are following the right advice.

hadiya was W/C gravid. I made a mistake in not checking out all the information on her before buying her. After she laid her eggs she was suddenly covered in ticks. I've tried everything, and just got my shipment in for prevent a mite and will be doing that tonight. I don't have a weight on her yet, but she is big, nearly 5 feet long.

she is set up in a glass tank, three sides covered, water dish in the middle big enough for her to soak, hides on both sides (the only ones I have found she will even use are cardboard boxes turned upside down with a hole cut in it). Her hot side is at 90ish degrees, her cool side is 85ish. Humidity is 60%. She is on newspaper on the bottom as a recommendation to not give the ticks a place to hide. The top of the tank is covered with plexi glass except where the light is. She is in a low traffic area of the house, quarentined from the other snake I have.

I have a vet appointment on friday to take her in, I can't get a fecal sample because she won't poop for me :weirdface

My friend has been telling me to force feed my snakes for a while. the one time my snake didn't eat for a month she was jumping on me to try. i wasn't comfortable with it, and i didn't let her. Bobo went back to eating normally after a month so i wasn't worried. Now she wants to force feed Hadiya and telling me i'm going to waste my money on the vet. I'd rather waste the money and have the vet tell me i'm paranoid than stress out an already unhappy snake.

Like I said force-feeding should be done when everything else has failed and the animal is losing a lot of weight or the animal's health is declining

If you bought a WC it might take a very long time before she ever eat for you, some do not adjust very well to captivity!

Get her seen by a vet take care of the ticks have a fecal done and take it from there.

Also since she is a WC I would recommend to provide her with maximum security and privacy and house her in a tinted plastic tub.

It might not appeal to you however for now the priority is to get her on track and a glass tank can definitely be another stress factor that you don't need with her right now!

Also did you wash her off when she laid her eggs!

Also remember if she has a good body weight she can go months without eating and do fine, I have a female over 2000 grams that has not ate in 112 days and she has barely lost 20 grams!

The tinted tub point would help for sure but you could just drape a towel over the front of the tank so all 4 sides are covered, and you can still peek;) You could even put some crumpled newspaper in with her to help add security to the tank, after you have done the PAM treatment of course. Thats usually done for young bp's, but it should work for her as well. I remember your post about the mites/ticks now, and its great you've got you husbandry right on!

Don't fret, the PAM should really help and if the mites/ticks do come back, don't worry sometimes it takes more than 1 treatment to really kill them off. Oh and just remember to follow the instructions on the can carefully and don't use it right on you bp. Perhaps you should tell your friend he/she needs more education about reptiles from the sounds of it!

After some of her advice, i don't even want to sell her a hatchling if I have some in the future years.

I don't have a problem with 'ugly' tubs if it will help her. I'm glad for this site and all the insite without the insults.

I gave her a small bath after she laid her eggs, cleaned out her tub really well, did everything I thought I was suppose to. than next day she had ticks.

i will keep you all updated on what the vet tells me friday.

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The tinted tub point would help for sure but you could just drape a towel over the front of the tank so all 4 sides are covered, and you can still peek

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No actually it is not the same, the use of tub in this kind of circumstances is to provide an enclosure has tight as possible, with a low ceiling which cannot be provided with a tank no matter how much you cover it up or how much crumble newspaper you are adding to it! ;)

I consider this kind of case a rehab and not only it is a rehab but a WC rehab which make it a bit more complicated, which is why security and privacy is essential.

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Originally Posted by Kalitta

hadiya was W/C gravid. I made a mistake in not checking out all the information on her before buying her. After she laid her eggs she was suddenly covered in ticks. I've tried everything, and just got my shipment in for prevent a mite and will be doing that tonight. I don't have a weight on her yet, but she is big, nearly 5 feet long.

she is set up in a glass tank, three sides covered, water dish in the middle big enough for her to soak, hides on both sides (the only ones I have found she will even use are cardboard boxes turned upside down with a hole cut in it). Her hot side is at 90ish degrees, her cool side is 85ish. Humidity is 60%. She is on newspaper on the bottom as a recommendation to not give the ticks a place to hide. The top of the tank is covered with plexi glass except where the light is. She is in a low traffic area of the house, quarentined from the other snake I have.

I have a vet appointment on friday to take her in, I can't get a fecal sample because she won't poop for me :weirdface

My friend has been telling me to force feed my snakes for a while. the one time my snake didn't eat for a month she was jumping on me to try. i wasn't comfortable with it, and i didn't let her. Bobo went back to eating normally after a month so i wasn't worried. Now she wants to force feed Hadiya and telling me i'm going to waste my money on the vet. I'd rather waste the money and have the vet tell me i'm paranoid than stress out an already unhappy snake.

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Please inform your friend to come join our group so we can help her learn the proper ways to care for her snakes.If force fed incorrectly you can KILL the snake :(

Thankfully she doesn't have any snakes at this time. She was hopeing to get one of my hatchlings when I have some. Untill she spends some time reading up on real snake care, i don't want her near mine.

As others have noted... a wc female that has just laid. You do want her eating... but taking a five foot WC python and forcing a prey down it's throat... hmmm... not so appealing. :)

WCs are going to be shier and you risk injury to you and the snake.

As far as letting your friend F-F her... can the friendship withstand her killing your snake if she does it improperly?

Take your time. Gather your information. Get her to vet. Correct your husbandry. You do want her feeding, but she will not feed till all the other issues are addressed.

Taking a meal before her issues are corrected... IMHO experiences, means that you will get more refusals in the future. Correct everything, get her feeding consistently and hopefully she will thrive for you.

Good luck,
Bruce

Time to step back and just assess dear.

This snake, an adult gravid WC female has in some space of time been taken from the wild, sold to you, laid a clutch, had mites and/or ticks and been basically shuffled from here to there while trying vainly to carry her eggs and fight off the bugs.

She's not likely to eat and if you think about it, can you blame the poor thing.

Address her health needs first, deal with the bugs, get a fecal float done (not need to take the snake in to the vet for that) or if she doesn't pass feces ask the vet to do a wash of her vent to test for internal parasites (this you do have to take the snake in for of course).

Address her housing needs next. She's a wild adult, she's likely in shock and distress over the changes in her existance lately. When we've successfully rehabbed these sorts of ball pythons we set them up in a tub with very deep bedding almost covering their hides so they go down into the hides basically. We set them up in full quarantine in our master bedroom where they do not leave until they are healthy and eating (at least 5 or 6 weekly feeds), have defecated, etc. We restrict anyone from entering the room other than my husband and I and keep all lighting low.

We do not handle them at all other than basic maintenance issues. We don't even try to feed for at least 3 or 4 weeks to allow them to begin to settle in to the crazy new life they are in. We watch for them to begin to lurk - basically just the head peeking out of the hide watching for prey - or show other hunting behaviours. Please note this could take weeks or months to see.

At that point we offer either a live rat fuzzy or a very small African Soft Furred rat. Neither of these prey sizes present much risk to the snake and we monitor from a distance in a very low light condition without movement or sound. Sometimes the snake will be left overnight with it's prey (only if the prey has no erupted teeth of course). If they eat, then slowly over time the prey size/total volume is increased and the snake's willingness to feed on a certain prey size or type noted.

Be aware that it takes months if not years to fully rehab one of these snakes. WC gravid females are not the fast or easy route to eggs or breedable size females in my opinion. They take a level of committment and understanding that I hope you're ready to deal with because it's all about tiny steps and slow progress with these girls.

I wanted to add, WC are very notorious for not eating after months and perhaps even a full year of trying.

In no way does it make you a bad keeper if she does not start eating for you. NO ONE will look down on you if you give her to another keeper who has experience with WC's.

WC's are very hard to acclimate into captivity and shouldn't be the first experiences you have with an adult female.

Just wanted to give you some support and let you know that you won't be met with criticism if you decide you want to give her to some more experienced hands.

Just to back up what Connie said, it's not easy to deal with these snakes. Both the WC females we have that we are rehabilitating were with various other people before us and ended up here because they simply would not eat. Mike and I are blessed or just plain lucky in that we seem to have a good routine down that has saved the two we've worked with. That is though a VERY small sample when you consider the number of WC's in collections right now. It could have gone the other way too and we may well have lost Saoirse and Danu eventually.

We were blessed with the support of this site and the direct help of Adam Wysocki who shared so much wisdom with us during the first months with Saoirse. Because of that help, Saoirse thrived and what we learned from her, we've applied to Danu, who is also doing very well now. Part of our decision though to take on these snakes with such special concerns was to know when we couldn't do enough, when our experience might not be enough and make the right decisions for each snake. These are hard calls to make but then nothing much is easy with these WC adults, at least not in my limited experience.

Joanna, thank your for posting to this thread, I was hoping you'd see it and share what's been successful for you in re-habing these snakes! :hug:

Update on hadiya:

I have taken her out of the glass tank and put her in a tub. having a bit of trouble finding a hide big enough for her that isn't too tall for the tub but i'm going to home depot tomorrow as well so i can get some pot bottoms and see how that works. She is on paper towels because I ran out of newspaper and untill i'm 100% sure she is tick and bug free, i don't want to give them a place to hide. She will be going to the vet tomorrow. Again even if i don't NEED to see the vet, I would rather know 100% for sure. and since she isn't pooping, the faster way is for the vet to see her. The tub is being moved into my room, we have a large walk in closet that will allow me to set it in a dark/low light room that no one can get to but me. She has an UTH and i need to put the thermometor and humidty monitor in there so i know what they are at.

If all goes well at the vet tomorrow, and it's not going to cost me a fortune, i have no problem with time and effort. If money is the issue, i will have to make the decision on wether to keep her or not. i have some extra saved that i will spend on her but if it's more than that, i'll have to look for another route to getting her well. It sucks that this isn't going to be as easy as things were with bobo, but all i can say is that now i'm really learning some stuff i previously didn't know.

You can get a small cat litter pan it will work just fine for a large female, it will be light and easy to clean too!

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...Room/Hide5.jpg

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Joanna, thank your for posting to this thread, I was hoping you'd see it and share what's been successful for you in re-habing these snakes! :hug:

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Np Robin, hopefully my babble is of some use LOL.

Well it sounds like you've got a good plan developing for Hadiya with reasonable expectations. The tub setup won't cost you too much and hopefully the vet can keep the fees reasonable (you can ask for an estimate of service if you're concerned about budgeting and who isn't these days).

When we took Saoirse in we had very little snake experience and nothing with WC adults. It was scary stuff but it was either us take her in or she was going into a freezer. Just take it slow, ask for lots of help and suggests, don't expect miracles overnight but if you work with her and it does work - I can tell you there is nothing I've felt better than seeing one of these snakes come back into their own. When Saoirse fed that first time, it took everything my husband and I had to creep out of our master bedroom so we could high five in the hallway LOL. When Danu did the same, it was just as absolutely thrilling.

It may be a tough road but please believe me it's a rewarding one. You will learn so much about how to manage a non-feeder, about stress and snakes, about your own dedication to these gorgeous creatures - all lessons that you can take forward with you to benefit the other snakes in your life. :)

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Originally Posted by Deborah

No actually it is not the same, the use of tub in this kind of circumstances is to provide an enclosure has tight as possible, with a low ceiling which cannot be provided with a tank no matter how much you cover it up or how much crumble newspaper you are adding to it! ;)

I consider this kind of case a rehab and not only it is a rehab but a WC rehab which make it a bit more complicated, which is why security and privacy is essential.

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I understand this situation is more sensitive and complicated due to the fact this snake needs rehabilitation and is W/C. But I did not say the tank covered on all four sides would be the same as a tub to be clear. Anyway, the OP has agreed that the tub is the smartest thing to use, and I am glad that more information is being given to assist her, as I have not personally been in this situation.

I hope this female does adjust well, and to the OP, good luck and keep asking questions and updating us on the situation, so others can continue to guide you.

I wish you all the luck with this. And yes, please keep us posted.