I need some moral support here people

After many unsuccessful weeks of offering F/T to our baby BP my boyfriend has decided to try live next. I am VERY sad about this being as I'm normally the girl buying up all of the "feeder mice" at the pet stores to "save them." :tears:

So I'm needing lots of comments about how it really isn't cruel, and they really don't suffer, and its nature taking its course, and our little one really needs to eat, and and and....

I just feel so bad for the poor little mouse :snake:

Hopefully you realize that the mice do not suffocate or die some horrible, awful death. When the snake constricts, the blood stops flowing, most importantly to the brain. After 8-10 seconds, the mouse is unconscious and from then on, feels nothing.

I know I would definitely want to die by constriction than having to die in a car accident. Fast death vs slow death.. hmmm..

So! It's really like fainting is to us. It's not all that unpleasant, maybe a bit weird feeling.

The main thing is to get her eating and get her happy about eating. After a few weeks of consistent meals, you might try switching her to f/t again. All of mine eat live mice(43 Ball Pythons, and a Short Tail Python). It makes me feel better to know that the mice were very well cared for before they were fed off. I give them wholesome food, clean, plentiful water, clean and soft bedding to sleep in, treats to eat, pecan branches to chew on. I know they at least had a good life while they were here, and know they are as healthy as I can make them.

Does that help any?

What all have you tried while attempting frozen? How long has it been since the snake ate? Might not be necessary.

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Hopefully you realize that the mice do not suffocate or die some horrible, awful death. When the snake constricts, the blood stops flowing, most importantly to the brain. After 8-10 seconds, the mouse is unconscious and from then on, feels nothing.

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Wow is that really true? If it is its really enlightening!

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Hopefully you realize that the mice do not suffocate or die some horrible, awful death. When the snake constricts, the blood stops flowing, most importantly to the brain. After 8-10 seconds, the mouse is unconscious and from then on, feels nothing.

I know I would definitely want to die by constriction than having to die in a car accident. Fast death vs slow death.. hmmm..

So! It's really like fainting is to us. It's not all that unpleasant, maybe a bit weird feeling.

The main thing is to get her eating and get her happy about eating. After a few weeks of consistent meals, you might try switching her to f/t again. All of mine eat live mice(43 Ball Pythons, and a Short Tail Python). It makes me feel better to know that the mice were very well cared for before they were fed off. I give them wholesome food, clean, plentiful water, clean and soft bedding to sleep in, treats to eat, pecan branches to chew on. I know they at least had a good life while they were here, and know they are as healthy as I can make them.

Does that help any?

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That DOES make me feel a little better...I didn't realize it is compared to fainting. I just have these awful pictures in my head of the mouse shrieking for its life as its eyeballs pop out of its head and guts go spilling out everywhere.

Thats true that yours have a good life while they are here. Does it ever get hard to part with them?

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Originally Posted by spix14

What all have you tried while attempting frozen? How long has it been since the snake ate? Might not be necessary.

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My boyfriend is on the forum as well, sneakerpro. The BP really is his so he's been handling all of the attempts...I'm not really sure how to describe it besides we thaw the fuzzy mouse in a bag under warm water then place it under the black light on the screen top of the cage to pre-scent and allow it to warm then we dangle it by its tail with bamboo tongs. What else do you want to know?

We have had slyder for about a month and he hasn't ate yet so we have no idea when the last time was that he ate.

Is it possible that slyder has never had a meal? He is still VERY small and we did buy him from a petstore so who knows where they get them from. The petstore had him for just a few days before we bought him and they said they only feed on thursdays so I'm pretty sure he didn't get fed there.

It doesn't really bother me and here's why:

In the wild what is the snake going to do? It's going to kill similar prey to what you are offering it. I realize that it's a bit more "unmoral" to offer the snake food the way that we do, but that's life. Have you ever seen 2 male adult mice that share a tub together.. they fight, sometimes to the death. I don't see the difference in them dying while fighting each other, or if my snakes eats it for a meal. Another sad reality is most humans are carnivores not all but most. And those of us who are eat beef, pork, chicken, etc, and even though you might not physically kill the animal yourself, someone else did, and now you are eating it for supper. Same concept in my opinion, except the snakes do the dirty work and also enjoy the meal.

Worst case scenario, it's possible he hasn't eaten yet. Not likely though. There are other things you can try to get him to eat though. How often are you handling him? Did you let him settle in before you started handling? What are your temps and humidity like in the cage?

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Originally Posted by b8byjenny

After many unsuccessful weeks of offering F/T to our baby BP my boyfriend has decided to try live next. I am VERY sad about this being as I'm normally the girl buying up all of the "feeder mice" at the pet stores to "save them." :tears:

So I'm needing lots of comments about how it really isn't cruel, and they really don't suffer, and its nature taking its course, and our little one really needs to eat, and and and....

I just feel so bad for the poor little mouse :snake:

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Jenny, what Becky told you is backed up by scientific studies (which I do have links for if you want them). Constrictors like your snake do not kill by slow strangulation of their prey. That would put the snake at a much higher risk of injury from it's prey and Mother Nature isn't that dumb. Death is quick and clean. Likely one of the cleanest and quickest kills of any predator on earth. I feed multiple snakes each week, from the smallest BP up to mature female ones. I raise my own rats and by some standards, totally spoil my breeder rats by naming and retiring my adults rats.

If it were an inhumane, drawn out kill where the prey suffered unduly, I would not do it dear.

The simple fact of life is rodents are born, designed perfectly by nature to be the live food for these snakes. Humans may want to feed f/t for various reasons and many snakes will adjust to that, but it's not guaranteed. Sadly pet stores don't bother to mention that to folks like you. You are faced with a decision now to try live feeding in order to get this snake a meal or to be so upset by live feeding that your snake goes hungry. It's not a fun decision for you but one that may well be necessary if this snake continues to refuse to eat in the manner you wish it to.

Before you try a live feed, please read threads here about the proper way to do this. It is not just a matter of tossing in any rodent to any snake. Like all things, it's a process and if done correctly minimizes risk to the snake and promotes a fast, efficient and humane end for the rodent.

Lastly dear, "saving" feeder rodents is never going to work. They are bred to be fed off, they aren't bred for pets any more than a beef cow is going to be a pet dog. More are just produced and quite honestly don't often live in a particularily nice manner at big rodent breeders or overcrowded pet store feeder bins.

Don't be sad, sorry or embarrassed that you do care about the rodents. I think that respect for the prey that sustains our snakes is just another way of being a responsible keeper who makes the right decisions by thinking about how it all works out for the snake and for it's prey animal.

Honestly, I am not trying to be harsh when I say this so please don't get upset, but if you eat meat you have probably contributed to immense suffering of animals. Much worse than any little feeder mouse will endure. Of course, free-range animals don't go through the horrible things that factory farms put their animals through, but they still have to die. I don't mean to get off on a soap box, really, but this is a valid point. A box of chicken fingers has a bloody history behind it.

As far as the mouse, as was stated earlier in this thread: the death is quick. Ever seen a croc take a meal? That's not quick. Nature has made constricting snakes ridiculously efficient at killing their prey. My ball was a sloppy eater the first few times, but last night she struck the mouse in about 10 seconds and it passed away in the next 10. She has become very precise and the mice don't suffer, they just pass out.

I'd love to get her on F/T for the sheer convenience of it (driving to the pet store is getting OLD). She won't take them though. I tried last night for almost 20 minutes as I have for the last month. I've tried everything and yes I do mean everything that's not an exaggeration. I have developed carpel tunnel syndrome from wiggling rodents in front of my snake!

I understand your compassion for the mice, as I am an animal lover as well. My boyfriend tries to keep me from watching that animal cops show because it always makes me so angry :mad: But there is a vast difference between a hawk taking a field rat to her young and a person not giving a dog water for days. Nature created a food chain for all creatures, and rodents are pretty much at the bottom. Do not feel bad for things that are natural, but instead turn that compassion towards real cruelty and help take out some of these jerks who neglect and abuse their pets.

If you don't like to see poor mices dying every week...... DON'T BUY A SNAKE!!!!!!!, becasue if do it is your responsibility to take care of that snake and at some point you would have to try feed live if your snake keep refusing F/T.

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Originally Posted by b8byjenny

After many unsuccessful weeks of offering F/T to our baby BP my boyfriend has decided to try live next. I am VERY sad about this being as I'm normally the girl buying up all of the "feeder mice" at the pet stores to "save them." :tears:

So I'm needing lots of comments about how it really isn't cruel, and they really don't suffer, and its nature taking its course, and our little one really needs to eat, and and and....

I just feel so bad for the poor little mouse :snake:

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What do you do with all the feeder mice? Why do you own a snake if you feel sorry you have to feed it mice? Grow a pair and drop that mouse in there.

Don't really grow a pair, because that'd be pretty unattractive, just know that that's life, and sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Why don't you just let your boyfriend feed it while you're not home?

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Originally Posted by cutemouse

A box of chicken fingers has a bloody history behind it.

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Oohh, but they are oh-so-good!!!

I didn't know chickens had fingers.... :confused:

May I remind some of you that comments like "don't buy a snake" and "grow a pair" are VERY unproductive to this thread. This member is asking for help to face an issue she's having, not to be scolded and spoken down to. I think she is trying to deal with something she didn't expect to have to deal and yes, though she likely should have known, she didn't. That's the situation at present.

We are here, as a community, to help newcomers so let's do what we do best please. Remember also, when we help someone we help their snake. :)

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

May I remind some of you that comments like "don't buy a snake" and "grow a pair" are VERY unproductive to this thread. This member is asking for help to face an issue she's having, not to be scolded and spoken down to. I think she is trying to deal with something she didn't expect to have to deal and yes, though she likely should have known, she didn't. That's the situation at present.

We are here, as a community, to help newcomers so let's do what we do best please. Remember also, when we help someone we help their snake. :)

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I'm sorry, I feel bad for the rats I feed my snake, because I don't like the screeching noise they make, but it has to be done. What else is there to say? "The rat doesn't suffer", I would think if it's a fast death or not, the rat is picked up, thrown in an unknown environment and then attacked by a snake.

Those squeels you hear aren't sighs of relaxation. To say the rat doesn't suffer is only half right. May not suffer when they are caught, but they surely suffer before hand.

So really there's nothing to say except, do it, or get rid of the snake.

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Originally Posted by Skoalbasher

I'm sorry, I feel bad for the rats I feed my snake, because I don't like the screeching noise they make, but it has to be done. What else is there to say? "The rat doesn't suffer", I would think if it's a fast death or not, the rat is picked up, thrown in an unknown environment and then attacked by a snake.

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There's a lot more that goes into responsible live feeding then "picked up, thrown in". I feed a lot of snakes a lot of rats. Most if not pretty much all of the rats have no concept of what that snake is about to do to them. They've been bred in captivity so long that most of them have no strong prey reactions left in them. I've watched rats literally walk up and sniff the snake's nose - not seeming to have the instinct left in them that says "that is a predator there".

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Those squeels you hear aren't sighs of relaxation. To say the rat doesn't suffer is only half right. May not suffer when they are caught, but they surely suffer before hand.

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What suffering "before hand"? Please explain what you mean about the time between being "caught" and "before hand". As far as squeels I hear, I can tell you that a snake used to taking live prey, being offered the right size live prey on a consistent basis does not give the rodent much chance to make much noise. It's a rare thing here to hear anything from the snake tubs other than WHUMPPPP as the snake hits, efficiently contains and immediately constricts it's dinner. The rats don't have a chance to squeel a great percentage of the time and in fact if Mike and I hear any squeeling we're concerned the feeding is not going as well as it should.

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So really there's nothing to say except, do it, or get rid of the snake.

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Helping a new owner is, in my opinion, worth the keystrokes and involves a lot more (especially when it comes to safe live feeding) than just "do it, or get rid of the snake".

Feeding live rodents to snakes is something that should be considered prior to getting a Ball Python. Many BP's will never eat FT or even prekilled. The reality is it is unnatural for them. They have heat receptors to measure body heat of their prey even in the blackest of darkness. Some can be condition to eat them but that is usually an established snake with a good feeding response. I prefer live because I can analyze the health of the rodent and I know it is fresh. My concern with frozen is I have no idea if the thing was healthy? how it died? and if there has been any decaying, maggots? prior to packaging, all very scary.

We live in a world where our meat comes packaged nicely in plastic, well folks just because we didn't kill it doesn't mean it didn't die for our consumption. We can eat millions of things other than meat, snakes only eat one thing, rodents, and if was running through your kitchen cabinets you probably wouldn't have any problem killing it. But put it in a cage and everyone gets all emotional.

Thats my take on it.

My wife doesnt like to watch the rodents die and I can appreciate that. I dont enjoy it but I look at it like farming. If I raised chickens or pigs(for consumption) I would have to kill them when it is time to sell the meat. You have to shut off the emotions and turn up the logic, its just the way it is and someones gotta do it.

OP, I'll be honest with you, I don't like to watch my snakes eat live. I'm a sucker for all animals, and I do go in against my feelings to watch them eat. Luckily, many of my snakes will take FT, but I that also does not me stop whatsoever from feeding them live.

I actually have a harder time gassing rats then watching snakes eat live. I don't know why that is, but it's true.

Somewhere, my fascination for snakes, the way they move, the way they watch us and watching them eat gets me over that initial gut wrenching when the rat get's wrapped. I simply love snakes and I enjoy seeing them live and thrive and watch them in their natural element. It's almost entrancing watching them eat, such a process, but I do not get any sort of pleasure from the intial kill.

It's just a part of life for me, and I imagine over the years I won't even bat an eye when feeding live. :)

THEY DO WHAT THEY DO,rats & mice are cute my kids have them for pets after my boa would'nt eat one know its a pet I call it the luckiest rat alive. one of my kids don't like it but I explain its what they do & teach them about nature & how life works as with death its a fact not pretty but still a fact.

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

Feeding live rodents to snakes is something that should be considered prior to getting a Ball Python. Many BP's will never eat FT or even prekilled. The reality is it is unnatural for them. They have heat receptors to measure body heat of their prey even in the blackest of darkness. Some can be condition to eat them but that is usually an established snake with a good feeding response. I prefer live because I can analyze the health of the rodent and I know it is fresh. My concern with frozen is I have no idea if the thing was healthy? how it died? and if there has been any decaying, maggots? prior to packaging, all very scary.

We live in a world where our meat comes packaged nicely in plastic, well folks just because we didn't kill it doesn't mean it didn't die for our consumption. We can eat millions of things other than meat, snakes only eat one thing, rodents, and if was running through your kitchen cabinets you probably wouldn't have any problem killing it. But put it in a cage and everyone gets all emotional.

Thats my take on it.

My wife doesnt like to watch the rodents die and I can appreciate that. I dont enjoy it but I look at it like farming. If I raised chickens or pigs(for consumption) I would have to kill them when it is time to sell the meat. You have to shut off the emotions and turn up the logic, its just the way it is and someones gotta do it.

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This is pretty much what I was trying to get across right here, I just didn't say it as nicely. It all boils down to, moral support shouldn't be a problem here, because when you purchase a snake, you KNOW it eats rodents.

So I'm not sure why I'm being ragged on, I'm just telling it like it is.

Seriously.. What about Chickens with Fingers...

:weirdface

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Seriously.. What about Chickens with Fingers...

:weirdface

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You've never seen a chicken with fingers? Psssh...

You've never seen foghorn leghorn? There's a chicken with fingers..

I love my rodents as much as I love my snakes, but it's just nature that the snakes eat the rodents, and the rodents I breed wouldn't even get to exist if they weren't being bred for the snakes.

I give the rodents a good life right up until the end, and eat meat myself, so I've gotten over feeling bad about feedings.

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Originally Posted by Skoalbasher

This is pretty much what I was trying to get across right here, I just didn't say it as nicely. It all boils down to, moral support shouldn't be a problem here, because when you purchase a snake, you KNOW it eats rodents.

So I'm not sure why I'm being ragged on, I'm just telling it like it is.

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I'm sorry you are feeling "ragged" upon. What I thought we were doing was discussing varying views on live feeding and what goes into it in order to help another member feel better about having to live feed.

When a person purchases a snake, they know it eats rodents. What they may not be aware of is that some snakes won't eat anything but a live rodent. There's a distinct difference there for some new keepers and their comfort level with live feeding. If they need moral support and information that part of why this site exists.

We're just telling it like it is too. :)

I am the OWNER of the snake we are discussing. I felt like I did an appropriate amount of research before purchasing a snake, and during that research I was told that almost every snake will eat F/T, and that the snake I was buying had been eating F/T pinkies. I thought I would be able to continue the F/T routine, but it doesn't seem to be working.

I know now that these aren't very reliable facts, and I am a little bit of a sucker for listening to Petco employees (no offense to any members who work there).

On another thread the general feeling I got was that feeding live would trigger the instinct to feed, and if that is the best way to get some food in him then I will do what has to be done. I'm not one of those "shock value" youtube video posting snake keepers. I am a logical, food-chain thinking person. I am also a responsible pet keeper, and want to do what is in the best interest of my snake. I have no idea when the last time he was fed, and most young BPs I see have more girth than mine does. It is time for him to get some food, and I think trying live is going to work.

I know Jen feels very sorry for the mouse, and I can understand it. However, she also cares about the snake, and is smart enough to know that even though it may not be the perfect situation it has to be done. I plan on attempting to feed tonight while she is at work.

P.S.
I'm hanging out at work today with a mouse, because she doesn't want to see it/spend time with it before we try to feed it to the snake. The mouse is keeping me company :D

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Originally Posted by sneakerpro

I am the OWNER of the snake we are discussing. I felt like I did an appropriate amount of research before purchasing a snake, and during that research I was told that almost every snake will eat F/T, and that the snake I was buying had been eating F/T pinkies. I thought I would be able to continue the F/T routine, but it doesn't seem to be working.

I know now that these aren't very reliable facts, and I am a little bit of a sucker for listening to Petco employees (no offense to any members who work there).

On another thread the general feeling I got was that feeding live would trigger the instinct to feed, and if that is the best way to get some food in him then I will do what has to be done. I'm not one of those "shock value" youtube video posting snake keepers. I am a logical, food-chain thinking person. I am also a responsible pet keeper, and want to do what is in the best interest of my snake. I have no idea when the last time he was fed, and most young BPs I see have more girth than mine does. It is time for him to get some food, and I think trying live is going to work.

I know Jen feels very sorry for the mouse, and I can understand it. However, she also cares about the snake, and is smart enough to know that even though it may not be the perfect situation it has to be done. I plan on attempting to feed tonight while she is at work.

P.S.
I'm hanging out at work today with a mouse, because she doesn't want to see it/spend time with it before we try to feed it to the snake. The mouse is keeping me company :D

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Good luck with the feed man, I hope everything works out well for you and your BP begins to thrive.

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Good luck with the feed man, I hope everything works out well for you and your BP begins to thrive.

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Hey, thanks man. I appreciate the all the WONDERFUL SUPPORT from you :D

I couldn't resist.

But seriously, thanks to everyone for all the different views that were discussed here. As always, it was very helpful. I'm excited to attempt another feeding and post tomorrow about all the SUCCESS I had!

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Originally Posted by b8byjenny

After many unsuccessful weeks of offering F/T to our baby BP my boyfriend has decided to try live next. I am VERY sad about this being as I'm normally the girl buying up all of the "feeder mice" at the pet stores to "save them." :tears:

So I'm needing lots of comments about how it really isn't cruel, and they really don't suffer, and its nature taking its course, and our little one really needs to eat, and and and....

I just feel so bad for the poor little mouse :snake:

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I very much like you feel extremely bad for these mice that are being sacrificed for the good of your snake. I still very much withdrawn and upset about this, but my baby bp was not eating for several reasons. I bought him from a very very horrible reptile store where I'm still dealing with the problem. I bought two snakes from there and one turned out to be sick. I feared that my other one would be as well. He had to have antibotics (liquid) flush into his stomach because it was believed he might have parasites living in his tummy. I feared he wouldn't eat because he refused to eat a few times. When your faced with your snake not feeding you fear losing your snake. Mine finally ate for the first time and it was a little mortifying but it was better than my snake dieing. If your still a little unsure if you want to feed your snake do what I planned to do and have your boyfriend/husband do it. Then you dont have to see it take place.:spid0r::spid0r:

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Originally Posted by sneakerpro

I am the OWNER of the snake we are discussing. I felt like I did an appropriate amount of research before purchasing a snake, and during that research I was told that almost every snake will eat F/T, and that the snake I was buying had been eating F/T pinkies. I thought I would be able to continue the F/T routine, but it doesn't seem to be working.

I know now that these aren't very reliable facts, and I am a little bit of a sucker for listening to Petco employees (no offense to any members who work there).

On another thread the general feeling I got was that feeding live would trigger the instinct to feed, and if that is the best way to get some food in him then I will do what has to be done. I'm not one of those "shock value" youtube video posting snake keepers. I am a logical, food-chain thinking person. I am also a responsible pet keeper, and want to do what is in the best interest of my snake. I have no idea when the last time he was fed, and most young BPs I see have more girth than mine does. It is time for him to get some food, and I think trying live is going to work.

I know Jen feels very sorry for the mouse, and I can understand it. However, she also cares about the snake, and is smart enough to know that even though it may not be the perfect situation it has to be done. I plan on attempting to feed tonight while she is at work.

P.S.
I'm hanging out at work today with a mouse, because she doesn't want to see it/spend time with it before we try to feed it to the snake. The mouse is keeping me company :D

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The more time you spend with an animal the more attached you will be. The less time you spend with something the easier it is to let go.

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The more time you spend with an animal the more attached you will be. The less time you spend with something the easier it is to let go.

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I'm not the type to get attatched to something thats purpose is to be eaten.;)

i feel ya after about 10 seconds its unconcious.
it will squeal a bit though.
it may suck but its in the best
intrest of your snake

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Originally Posted by sneakerpro

Hey, thanks man. I appreciate the all the WONDERFUL SUPPORT from you :D

I couldn't resist.

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You're welcome. That's the support you need.

You have a snake, snakes eat rats. If you feel sorry enough for the rat you don't want to feed it to your snake. Get rid of it. Or do what y'all are doing and have someone else feed it.

I still want to know if your snake ate, because that's what's really important here.

I was a little squeamish about live feeding the first few times, you might feel a little bit of that.

My daughter was really mad the first time I fed a pinkie to my corn. She told me I was a bad person. That wasn't fun. I don't feed when she's around because she's sensitive about it.

But, yeah, like a lot of people have said, prey/predator relationships are part of nature, and the act of constriction is pretty quick and relatively painless. But be prepared for an occasional shreik from a live mouse. Sorry, it just happens.:(

To me feeding a snake a live rodent is a lot more honest than the kibble you feed your dog.
After all, animals died to provide your dog with kibble. Just because it's diquised from it's original critter, doesn't make it any less a piece of a dead animal(I know, there's tons of filler, but there still is animal parts in kibble, unless you have some of the rare properly formulated vegan kibble).
The mice/rats are really cool animals. Rats are social and smart and personable. They also happen to be a prey item. Cows can be really neat animals too, but you still eat those.
I think you need to take a step back from the "animal" and see it as food in a furry package.

I think the lesson here is dont buy snakes from Petco folks. The majority are CH snakes that may have never eaten and may be loaded with parasites and trouble not to mention the lack of peoper husbandry.

Go to a breeder and odds are you will get an established, feeding, healthy ball python. The petstores usually tell you what you want to hear to make a sale.

My first BP (store bought) was supposed to be CB, well she had ticks, mites, dehydrated and internal parasites.

Well, I'm a frozen thawed feeder, and all my snakes eat it just fine. I'm having trouble with my big bp right now, who is off feed, but as he was eating f/t before that it's not that he won't, it's just that for whatever reason is his snakey brain he doesn't want to eat right now. Personally I feel that it is a lot safer for the snake, but that is just my opinion. I know a lot of people on here feed live and have no problems, and more power to them. I just don't want to risk any sort of injury to the snake.

I really don't agree that they have a better feeding response with live either, if anyone want to come see my snakes hit their f/t prey feel free. The only way their feeding responses could get any better is I guess if they tore the mouse to shreds in a frenzy before eating.

Anyway the point I'm making is this, don't totally give up on f/t. You may have to feed him live a time or two to get him eating but with a bit of work I have faith that he could be switched to f/t. Did you ever post what your temps and humidity are? That could be the problem. There are also many methods of offering f/t to a snake, have you tried all of them?

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Jenny, what Becky told you is backed up by scientific studies (which I do have links for if you want them). Constrictors like your snake do not kill by slow strangulation of their prey. That would put the snake at a much higher risk of injury from it's prey and Mother Nature isn't that dumb. Death is quick and clean. Likely one of the cleanest and quickest kills of any predator on earth. I feed multiple snakes each week, from the smallest BP up to mature female ones. I raise my own rats and by some standards, totally spoil my breeder rats by naming and retiring my adults rats.

If it were an inhumane, drawn out kill where the prey suffered unduly, I would not do it dear.

The simple fact of life is rodents are born, designed perfectly by nature to be the live food for these snakes. Humans may want to feed f/t for various reasons and many snakes will adjust to that, but it's not guaranteed. Sadly pet stores don't bother to mention that to folks like you. You are faced with a decision now to try live feeding in order to get this snake a meal or to be so upset by live feeding that your snake goes hungry. It's not a fun decision for you but one that may well be necessary if this snake continues to refuse to eat in the manner you wish it to.

Before you try a live feed, please read threads here about the proper way to do this. It is not just a matter of tossing in any rodent to any snake. Like all things, it's a process and if done correctly minimizes risk to the snake and promotes a fast, efficient and humane end for the rodent.

Lastly dear, "saving" feeder rodents is never going to work. They are bred to be fed off, they aren't bred for pets any more than a beef cow is going to be a pet dog. More are just produced and quite honestly don't often live in a particularily nice manner at big rodent breeders or overcrowded pet store feeder bins.

Don't be sad, sorry or embarrassed that you do care about the rodents. I think that respect for the prey that sustains our snakes is just another way of being a responsible keeper who makes the right decisions by thinking about how it all works out for the snake and for it's prey animal.

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You are very sweet, thank you for your kind words.

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Originally Posted by cutemouse

Honestly, I am not trying to be harsh when I say this so please don't get upset, but if you eat meat you have probably contributed to immense suffering of animals. Much worse than any little feeder mouse will endure. Of course, free-range animals don't go through the horrible things that factory farms put their animals through, but they still have to die. I don't mean to get off on a soap box, really, but this is a valid point. A box of chicken fingers has a bloody history behind it.

As far as the mouse, as was stated earlier in this thread: the death is quick. Ever seen a croc take a meal? That's not quick. Nature has made constricting snakes ridiculously efficient at killing their prey. My ball was a sloppy eater the first few times, but last night she struck the mouse in about 10 seconds and it passed away in the next 10. She has become very precise and the mice don't suffer, they just pass out.

I'd love to get her on F/T for the sheer convenience of it (driving to the pet store is getting OLD). She won't take them though. I tried last night for almost 20 minutes as I have for the last month. I've tried everything and yes I do mean everything that's not an exaggeration. I have developed carpel tunnel syndrome from wiggling rodents in front of my snake!

I understand your compassion for the mice, as I am an animal lover as well. My boyfriend tries to keep me from watching that animal cops show because it always makes me so angry :mad: But there is a vast difference between a hawk taking a field rat to her young and a person not giving a dog water for days. Nature created a food chain for all creatures, and rodents are pretty much at the bottom. Do not feel bad for things that are natural, but instead turn that compassion towards real cruelty and help take out some of these jerks who neglect and abuse their pets.

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I completely agree...there are much worse fatalities everyday.

p.s. I can't watch the animal cop shows either :)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

OP, I'll be honest with you, I don't like to watch my snakes eat live. I'm a sucker for all animals, and I do go in against my feelings to watch them eat. Luckily, many of my snakes will take FT, but I that also does not me stop whatsoever from feeding them live.

I actually have a harder time gassing rats then watching snakes eat live. I don't know why that is, but it's true.

Somewhere, my fascination for snakes, the way they move, the way they watch us and watching them eat gets me over that initial gut wrenching when the rat get's wrapped. I simply love snakes and I enjoy seeing them live and thrive and watch them in their natural element. It's almost entrancing watching them eat, such a process, but I do not get any sort of pleasure from the intial kill.

It's just a part of life for me, and I imagine over the years I won't even bat an eye when feeding live. :)

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Thats a new take on it that hasn't really been touched on in this thread so far and I can appreciate what you are saying. As I have said, slyder is not "mine" so it really isn't up to me to say F/T or live but I do know that until he came into our lives I had no interest in snakes. Now look at me....I joined a snake forum! I love just sitting and watching him for hours on end, even the slightest movement calls for an announcement to my boyfriend! I am glad that there are people out there that can empathize with how I feel and I hope that with time I will learn to be as comfortable as you are.

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Originally Posted by greghall

THEY DO WHAT THEY DO,rats & mice are cute my kids have them for pets after my boa would'nt eat one know its a pet I call it the luckiest rat alive. one of my kids don't like it but I explain its what they do & teach them about nature & how life works as with death its a fact not pretty but still a fact.

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I think that is very honorable.

Yes, when constricted, mice/rats/etc. die a faster death from cardiac arrest than a death from suffocation in a dry ice chamber. Also, studies show (Reptiles magazine had a story) that only primates and monkeys have an innate fear of snakes when enclosed with them. So even the fear thing is in doubt - the mouse might want to escape like any other place he'd be put in - but he probably isn't any more afraid.

Also, either way, a rodent has to die for your snake to eat. It's the mouse or the snake. In having a snake, hopefully, you can come to accept that and live with it. It is part of nature.

Good luck.

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Originally Posted by JeffFlanagan

I love my rodents as much as I love my snakes, but it's just nature that the snakes eat the rodents, and the rodents I breed wouldn't even get to exist if they weren't being bred for the snakes.

I give the rodents a good life right up until the end, and eat meat myself, so I've gotten over feeling bad about feedings.

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Yeah one of the earlier posts said the same thing...its a good point to make that they really do have a good life while they are here. Which can't be said for a lot of others.

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Originally Posted by sneakerpro

I am the OWNER of the snake we are discussing. I felt like I did an appropriate amount of research before purchasing a snake, and during that research I was told that almost every snake will eat F/T, and that the snake I was buying had been eating F/T pinkies. I thought I would be able to continue the F/T routine, but it doesn't seem to be working.

I know now that these aren't very reliable facts, and I am a little bit of a sucker for listening to Petco employees (no offense to any members who work there).

On another thread the general feeling I got was that feeding live would trigger the instinct to feed, and if that is the best way to get some food in him then I will do what has to be done. I'm not one of those "shock value" youtube video posting snake keepers. I am a logical, food-chain thinking person. I am also a responsible pet keeper, and want to do what is in the best interest of my snake. I have no idea when the last time he was fed, and most young BPs I see have more girth than mine does. It is time for him to get some food, and I think trying live is going to work.

I know Jen feels very sorry for the mouse, and I can understand it. However, she also cares about the snake, and is smart enough to know that even though it may not be the perfect situation it has to be done. I plan on attempting to feed tonight while she is at work.

P.S.
I'm hanging out at work today with a mouse, because she doesn't want to see it/spend time with it before we try to feed it to the snake. The mouse is keeping me company :D

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You are like THE sweetest guy in the world. Thank you for inconveniencing yourself on my behalf baby, I love you.

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Originally Posted by sneakerpro

Hey, thanks man. I appreciate the all the WONDERFUL SUPPORT from you :D

I couldn't resist.

But seriously, thanks to everyone for all the different views that were discussed here. As always, it was very helpful. I'm excited to attempt another feeding and post tomorrow about all the SUCCESS I had!

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Just a little spoiler for everyone......while I was at work sneakerpro offered the live mouse and he said it took all of two minutes for him to decide he wanted it! (I think the little guy was hungry) :) I am happy he has eaten! :banana:

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Originally Posted by Evilme5229

I very much like you feel extremely bad for these mice that are being sacrificed for the good of your snake. I still very much withdrawn and upset about this, but my baby bp was not eating for several reasons. I bought him from a very very horrible reptile store where I'm still dealing with the problem. I bought two snakes from there and one turned out to be sick. I feared that my other one would be as well. He had to have antibotics (liquid) flush into his stomach because it was believed he might have parasites living in his tummy. I feared he wouldn't eat because he refused to eat a few times. When your faced with your snake not feeding you fear losing your snake. Mine finally ate for the first time and it was a little mortifying but it was better than my snake dieing. If your still a little unsure if you want to feed your snake do what I planned to do and have your boyfriend/husband do it. Then you dont have to see it take place.:spid0r::spid0r:

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That is an excellent idea and we took your advice :)

Well congrats on a full snake belly!! Although you are fond of mice (so am I) doesn't it feel good to know he's fed:)

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Originally Posted by missi182

Well congrats on a full snake belly!! Although you are fond of mice (so am I) doesn't it feel good to know he's fed:)

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YES!!!!! :D

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Originally Posted by b8byjenny

After many unsuccessful weeks of offering F/T to our baby BP my boyfriend has decided to try live next. I am VERY sad about this being as I'm normally the girl buying up all of the "feeder mice" at the pet stores to "save them." :tears:

So I'm needing lots of comments about how it really isn't cruel, and they really don't suffer, and its nature taking its course, and our little one really needs to eat, and and and....

I just feel so bad for the poor little mouse :snake:

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Yes, it is all that you have said. I feed all of my ball pythons live rats. I breed my own rats. I really enjoy breeding rats. I like them, but when it comes down to my snakes, I love them. So I don't mind to feed them live. I have tried f/t and it didn't work. I want my snakes to eat for me ever week, and I don't see any reason to starve them becasue I don't want to give them live. Over time it will less hard on you. Hope this helps. :cool:

To the OP.

Glad to see you are concerned with the welfare of your feeders.

I am a graduate of the "FrankyKeno School of Rodent Breeding and Feeding", and feel that for those of us that feed live, respecting the feeder prey is critical.

I raise all my own prey. My breeders are my pets, and like Franky I retire my females and/or rehome them.

I feed live to my pythons, and I also CO2 rats for my colubrids.

Feeding rats IS part of having a snake. But I will not say the "feed it and get over it thing"... I do not buy that. I think it does take time to really grasp it and to comfortable with it.

It takes a bit of confidence and a concept of the bigger picture. If you feed awkwardly or are not efficient, it does not allow your snake a clean strike or an efficient kill. Which just makes it worse... I had been there, and those experiences are the ones that help you learn.

Especially if you want to provide a quick death for the rodent.

Glad you have a supportive partner.

I can tell from your excitement over his initial feed that perhaps a bit of your hesitation is lifting? :)

My first BP did not eat for 4 months... I tried everything... I even debrained a mouse. Think feeding live is hard... debraining a mouse is something I NEVER want to do again. I offered him live and BAM!... I never looked back. I was amazed to watch it and see just how efficient he was.

Far more efficient than all the tricks I was using that were only serving to stress him out, rather than giving him what he needed... a meal.

Bruce

PS: I think sometimes we forget that stigma is attached not only to snakes, but to snake owners. And that cultural myths/mores prevail regarding what is humane and inhumane. It is easy for people to say "that is cruel!" and if we hear it enough in our lives, we have that disconnect from what is the reality of a snake's live... and that they truly are (as are all animals) a perfect form of evolution.