wobbles

I bought my first morph today a spider, i got him home and just stared at him for an hour like you do and noticed that he holds his head slightly to one side,please tell me this is not the wobbles i was only reading about this last week.

Could be that is one of the traits but trust me it isn't life altering. Its just a querk. :D

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Originally Posted by barbara

I bought my first morph today a spider, i got him home and just stared at him for an hour like you do and noticed that he holds his head slightly to one side,please tell me this is not the wobbles i was only reading about this last week.

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If he eats fine and sheds fine a little wobble is nothing to worry about. Mine definitely does some quirky things when startled or handled, but when it comes to feeding you can hardly tell!:D

lol yea wobble isnt a problem. Its actually a trait found in all ball python morphs including normals just spiders are more common to have it!

thanks. He is lovely though wouldnt part with him now whatevers wrong with him, got him from viper and vine theres a pic of him on their web site on matt,s head, and on the reptiles available page.

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Originally Posted by jdmls88

lol yea wobble isnt a problem. Its actually a trait found in all ball python morphs including normals just spiders are more common to have it!

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Thats a pretty bold claim, I think you'd be safer saying...it COULD be found in all morphs. Not all of the morphs/mutations will display wobbling/spinning behaviors, but it doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

:gj:

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Originally Posted by jknudson

Thats a pretty bold claim, I think you'd be safer saying...it COULD be found in all morphs. Not all of the morphs/mutations will display wobbling/spinning behaviors, but it doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

:gj:

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im saying it could be found in all morphs, personally ive seen albinos, normals, and spiders doin it

The wobble and spinning is why I have stayed away from spiders so far. Im not 100% anti spider or anything like that. I think they are killer and make some great combos. I just dont know what I would do if I ended up with a bunch of messed up spider babies that I couldnt get rid of.

Sorry to hijack, but what is the deal with the wobbly spider thing? Any threads or articles anyone could point me to?

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Originally Posted by Adam Wysocki @ 8ballpythons.com Blog

The real “spin” on spiders.
Tuesday, February 13th, 2007

When I purchased my first spider many years ago, I had heard and was told about “spinning” in spider ball pythons. The way it was described, I understood “spinning” to be a condition where the animal continually loops their head and neck in a “corkscrew” motion and barely has the ability to sit still. I looked over my spider and there was no “cork screwing” so in my mind, he wasn’t a “spinner”.

Over the years that followed as I raised my spider, I heard a lot of big breeders making statements like “all spiders spin” or “all spiders are tweaked” and I really got pissed off. How could they be saying stuff like that? All they were doing was hurting any chance I ever had at selling spiders. Surely I would produce spiders that didn’t spin and if they were telling people that every single one was “tweaked”, I’d be cooked!

Then, I started producing my own spiders. Within my first couple of clutches I noticed a couple that “weren’t right”, but no big deal, I just wouldn’t sell those. Then I started looking harder. I noticed different degrees of odd behavior in all of the spiders that I produced. Some shook their head from side to side, some spun like tops, and others did the corkscrew thing as they were cruising their cage at night, still others were less noticeable but it was there. The less noticeable ones didn’t wobble or corkscrew, but they held their head at an angle when you looked at them. Kind of like the way a dog looks when it hears something it doesn’t understand. So then I started looking at spiders. Spiders in my friends collections, spiders at shows, spiders in pictures posted on the internet. All of them do it do some degree, all of them.

I’ve read the internet rumors that it has something to do with the amount of white, or the head pattern, or the connecting or non-connecting neck stripe on the animals neck … bologna! It doesn’t matter, they all do it. I’ve also heard that spider siblings do it. After producing tons of spider clutches, I don’t find that to be an accurate statement. I do believe that breeders have seen “spinning” in spider siblings, but I don’t think that it is any more common in the normal looking siblings of spiders than it is in any other normal looking ball python. Over the years (and before I ever heard of spinning in spiders) I have produced a heterozygous albino and a normal looking pastel sibling that spin the exact same way that spiders do. I feel that it is a condition that can effect all ball pythons but for whatever reason is common in spiders. I’ve also heard that the reason spiders spin is because they were so inbred early on in the project … ridiculous. The recessive mutations out there have been inbred/line bred by an order of magnitude more than spiders. The notion that a co-dominant/dominant mutation can be inbred more than a recessive is an ill informed one.

I finally understood what the big breeders were saying. It’s not always as in your face as people expect it to be, but it’s there in each and every spider. You just have to know what to look for. Now I know a lot of people are going to read this and say “no, not my spider”. I’m telling you, your spider does it too. You just have to know what to look for. I’m not sure what the answer is, but I know one thing for sure … spin or not, I LOVE SPIDERS! I love their natural variation, I love the combos that they make, I love everything about them. I will always breed and produce spiders. I will do my best to keep my customers informed about them as much as I am and leave the decision to them. If I have to end up keeping every spider and spider I produce … well, that’s fine with me! :-)

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I saw mine wobble for the first time last night while I was waiting for him to eat. He just flopped his head back.. lol, it was funny looking. Other than that time, he seems to be ok. His tongue seems to come out further than Vincent's though.

My spider wobbled when I first got her, but she hasn't done it in a while.

Why is it bad, exactly?
Does it change their behavior in any other way (make them more aggressive or anything)? Do spiders have about the same lifespan as other BPs?
I'm just curious because I like them a lot, and kind of think the wobbling could be cute if it's not harmful in any way.

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

Why is it bad, exactly?
Does it change their behavior in any other way (make them more aggressive or anything)? Do spiders have about the same lifespan as other BPs?
I'm just curious because I like them a lot, and kind of think the wobbling could be cute if it's not harmful in any way.

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I wouldn't worry about it too much. It could be a genetic trait just as "Star Gazing" could be. This is one of the reasons I believe breeders need to keep more accurate breeding records and follow up with owners a little more. Some of these things may not be witnessed at the breeder level or they may be, but since people really are not sure if it is genetic or not only good record keeping can prove it or someone breeding a snake that does it with another snake that does it and witnessing the trait getting stronger! Lucky for us none of our snakes have shown either of these behaviors, but our bumblebee is always the first to wake up and come out every evening and is the most prone to coming out during the day. I've heard that is a trait of the spider gene in her! If this is a trait that can be passed on I wonder what other traits can be passed on? Tracy Barker has told us that their line of Axanthic (VPI) have good records for laying larger clutches than normal! So many traits in ball Pythons have not even been really studied yet that a world of possibilities exist for a ball python keeper or breeder to do all kinds of studies and possibly become known in the community for the results of those studies if the actions taken and results our well documented following good Scientific research practices.

i wanted to breed from him when hes older, what do you think.

if you want to breed from him then do so...you will have no trouble getting rid of the babies.....if you do then bring them round to me ill have them off you.

ive seen a spider spin so bad that it whacked its head on the tub it was in...kinda cartoon-like but it doesnt bother them so why let it bother you.

I'm getting a spider from Jons jungle in a few days and I'm hoping that he wobbles.

I don't think it's so amusing, and it's akin to a mentally disabled person with no motor control. Not to say these pythons are retarded or any less valuable than other BP's, just that the lack of motor control could be attributed to certain other mysteries, like the non-existent homozygous spider.

I'm not incredibly offended by wobbling but to hope an animal wobbles? That just seems irresponsible to me.

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Originally Posted by veedubz

ive seen a spider spin so bad that it whacked its head on the tub it was in...kinda cartoon-like but it doesnt bother them so why let it bother you.

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How do you know it does not bother them? Just because a snake eats and breeds does not mean the spinning is not detrimental.

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

Do spiders have about the same life-span as other BPs?

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I don't think anyone can answer that question with 100% certainty yet. It appears that they will have a normal life span, but they have not been around long enough to know for sure yet.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

How do you know it does not bother them? Just because a snake eats and breeds does not mean the spinning is not detrimental.

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Thats the same thing I have been thinking. All these people that have spiders and some of them someday want to breed them and sell them. Are most of the time the ones that say "oh it doesn't bother them" they still eat and breed. Looks like we have a few people that talk to there snakes or something. Its the snake whisperers. Oh I got it the snakes the wobbles and spinning makes them talk and they are saying that it doesn't bother them. Im sorry but if I was all that wobbling or spinning stuff was going on with me. I said in another post about this. Id want to be taken out in a field and be taken care of. Anyways that my thought on that.

I haven't seen mine wobble , as I just might not know what to look for but she does do some quirky things. I'm super happy to have her no second thoughts here.

When I was a kid, one of my friend's Dad had Menieres disease, a disease that effects the inner ear and equilibrium, he couldn't walk a straight line and always appeared that he had had a few to many drinks, he didn't drink. Maybe it's something like this that is in the spider gene in different degrees?

Rich

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Originally Posted by pythontricker

I'm getting a spider from Jons jungle in a few days and I'm hoping that he wobbles.

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why would you hope for a snake with a neuro problem???

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Originally Posted by ama1997

Thats the same thing I have been thinking. All these people that have spiders and some of them someday want to breed them and sell them. Are most of the time the ones that say "oh it doesn't bother them" they still eat and breed. Looks like we have a few people that talk to there snakes or something. Its the snake whisperers. Oh I got it the snakes the wobbles and spinning makes them talk and they are saying that it doesn't bother them. Im sorry but if I was all that wobbling or spinning stuff was going on with me. I said in another post about this. Id want to be taken out in a field and be taken care of. Anyways that my thought on that.

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Your way of handling challenges must not get you far in life. And if you had some crazy disorder would you want to be just put to sleep. Hell id be happy if someone fed me and cleaned me and gave me a girl to mess around with if i was all messes up. <3 not saying I think wobbles are bad or good. You are just a little over opinionated.

While I could not see putting a creature down just because it is flawed in some way that did not prohibit it from general life type activities, I don't think it would be an animal I could sell as a breeder if I knew it had it, but then again if you are breeding 50+ snakes a year do you really have the time to sit down and really study each one for mental or balance type abnormalities that can only be seen a couple times a day? IMO if you breed animals and breed something that you know has a possible genetic abnormality you should be ready to take care of the snake unless care of the snake requires extreme measures, like it can't swallow its food! If you do sell one you should make sure the buyer knows up front that he is possibly getting a genetically flawed snake and that snake should only be a pet and not used as a breeder. Then again you get back to the large breeder with 20 or more clutches a year they don't really have time to deal with a lot of pet snakes!

thanks everyone for all your posts, now my spider has settled in he looks a lot better, hes eaten and all i can see now is his head slighly to one side, lets hope he will improve with age.

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

While I could not see putting a creature down just because it is flawed in some way that did not prohibit it from general life type activities, I don't think it would be an animal I could sell as a breeder if I knew it had it, but then again if you are breeding 50+ snakes a year do you really have the time to sit down and really study each one for mental or balance type abnormalities that can only be seen a couple times a day? IMO if you breed animals and breed something that you know has a possible genetic abnormality you should be ready to take care of the snake unless care of the snake requires extreme measures, like it can't swallow its food! If you do sell one you should make sure the buyer knows up front that he is possibly getting a genetically flawed snake and that snake should only be a pet and not used as a breeder. Then again you get back to the large breeder with 20 or more clutches a year they don't really have time to deal with a lot of pet snakes!

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I respectfully disagree with you about reputable breeders and them not knowing their for-sale stock. I have dealt with three breeders who fall into your category of breeding 50+ snakes a year and having in excess of 20 clutches and I can assure you that the breeders TAKE THE TIME to know what they are selling. My '06 spider came from Adam at 8Ball and he absolutely knew about the spider he was selling me.
Please, don't let numbers of snakes cloud your vision for the passion that some breeders have for turning out totally top-notch reptiles for other breeders and hobbyists. The breeders I deal with know their stock and handle their snakes.
Okay, coming off my soapbox now......!

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Originally Posted by barbara

i wanted to breed from him when hes older, what do you think.

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I can't see any reason not to. Being a bad one can come from parents who barely show it, then I'd assume it to be a random thing with the severity being a case by case basis.

If you have read about Ralph Davis's experience with one that showed barely anything at all only to later end up wobbling bad, then you can assume it's almost impossible to predict how an animal will turn out with these genetics that spiders have.

If you don't do it, then you stand to learn nothing at all. Just my opinion!

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Originally Posted by WellyBelly

Your way of handling challenges must not get you far in life. And if you had some crazy disorder would you want to be just put to sleep.

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Well im just fine with where I am in my life right now. And yes if I did have some crazy disorder that would make it hard for me to function, They yes I would want to be put to sleep or whatever.

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Originally Posted by ama1997

Well im just fine with where I am in my life right now. And yes if I did have some crazy disorder that would make it hard for me to function, They yes I would want to be put to sleep or whatever.

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But it seems as though it doesn't make it hard for them to function, at least in the environment where we are keeping them. (and whose to say that any CB BPs could function properly in the wild?...)

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

...(and whose to say that any CB BPs could function properly in the wild?...)

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My guess is that they would function just fine in their natural habitat based on the absence of domestication while in our captivity.

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

But it seems as though it doesn't make it hard for them to function, at least in the environment where we are keeping them. (and whose to say that any CB BPs could function properly in the wild?...)

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This is just my opinion on this. I don't look down on anyone who feels differently but I do not think an animal with a genetic disorder should be bred. I don't think that just because an animal can survive and reproduce means a negative trait should be encouraged. No one really knows what the actual snake is feeling. I can't imagine it is pleasant especially in some of the more severe cases. I do wonder sometimes if peoples reaction to the "wobble" would be different if it occured in a certain dog breed instead of BP's.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

This is just my opinion on this. I don't look down on anyone who feels differently but I do not think an animal with a genetic disorder should be bred. I don't think that just because an animal can survive and reproduce means a negative trait should be encouraged. No one really knows what the actual snake is feeling. I can't imagine it is pleasant especially in some of the more severe cases. I do wonder sometimes if peoples reaction to the "wobble" would be different if it occured in a certain dog breed instead of BP's.

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I agree. :gj:

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Originally Posted by pfan151

This is just my opinion on this. I don't look down on anyone who feels differently but I do not think an animal with a genetic disorder should be bred. I don't think that just because an animal can survive and reproduce means a negative trait should be encouraged. No one really knows what the actual snake is feeling. I can't imagine it is pleasant especially in some of the more severe cases. I do wonder sometimes if peoples reaction to the "wobble" would be different if it occured in a certain dog breed instead of BP's.

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I agree, but pugs have some pretty severe issues and are still bred.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

I do not think an animal with a genetic disorder should be bred. I don't think that just because an animal can survive and reproduce means a negative trait should be encouraged.

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Thats my thoughts on this too. If someone wants to keep a spider as a pet fine. If its not spinning or wobbling to bad. If it is it needs to be put down. I do not think they should be bred. Its a way to get the genetic disorder or whatever people want to call it. Into other animals. Next thing we know it will be in all ball pythons.

A spider bred to a pastel. The bees can and do get it passed on to them. So ok I wont buy one. Ok I pick up a normal get it home it does it. Then I find out its a normal sib from a spider clutch. Ok all the spiders normal sibs most either get sent out the the local pet shops. Or maybe held back for breeding. Like in the spiders, The normal sibs ones that don't spin or wobble can produce babies that do. If it can be passed onto bees or anything else with spider in it. It could also be put onto the normal sibs too.

So that normal spider sib is bred to whatever say a pied.Then that genetic disorder just got passed onto the piebald gene. In the end we will end up with the rarest of the balls being ones that don't spin or wobble.

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Originally Posted by ama1997

Thats my thoughts on this too. If someone wants to keep a spider as a pet fine. If its not spinning or wobbling to bad. If it is it needs to be put down. I do not think they should be bred. Its a way to get the genetic disorder or whatever people want to call it. Into other animals. Next thing we know it will be in all ball pythons.

A spider bred to a pastel. The bees can and do get it passed on to them. So ok I wont buy one. Ok I pick up a normal get it home it does it. Then I find out its a normal sib from a spider clutch. Ok all the spiders normal sibs most either get sent out the the local pet shops. Or maybe held back for breeding. Like in the spiders, The normal sibs ones that don't spin or wobble can produce babies that do. If it can be passed onto bees or anything else with spider in it. It could also be put onto the normal sibs too.

So that normal spider sib is bred to whatever say a pied.Then that genetic disorder just got passed onto the piebald gene. In the end we will end up with the rarest of the balls being ones that don't spin or wobble.

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Normal sibs do not exhibit the wobble trait.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

This is just my opinion on this. I don't look down on anyone who feels differently but I do not think an animal with a genetic disorder should be bred. I don't think that just because an animal can survive and reproduce means a negative trait should be encouraged. No one really knows what the actual snake is feeling. I can't imagine it is pleasant especially in some of the more severe cases. I do wonder sometimes if peoples reaction to the "wobble" would be different if it occured in a certain dog breed instead of BP's.

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Aren't all morphs genetic disorders?
BT

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Originally Posted by pfan151

Normal sibs do not exhibit the wobble trait.

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http://forum.8ballpythons.com/blog/?p=5

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Originally Posted by BT41042

Aren't all morphs genetic disorders?
BT

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there is a difference between a disorder and a mutation?

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Originally Posted by BT41042

Aren't all morphs genetic disorders?
BT

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Morphs are genetic mutations of certain genes. While a genetic disorder is usually something detrimental to the well-being of the animal.

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Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

Morphs are genetic mutations of certain genes. While a genetic disorder is usually something detrimental to the well-being of the animal.

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Many visual morphs can be described as the inhibition of certain workings and traits in the cells. Whether it is the over production of pigment, the inhibition of certain pigments, or the placement of pigments during embryo development, they are most often "stopping" the cells from working and doing their jobs properly, resulting in our morphs.

These are very often passed down through simple recessives or co-dominant inheritance. Making it a genetic mutation (disorder).

If it is an attribute that is detrimental to the survival of the animal and bodily function, and is inherited through simple Mendelian understanding, I would call it a genetic disease.

They are all "disorders", but the severity to how they inhibit the natural and perfect workings in the animal warrants a different label I think. I could be wrong about the labels, but that's how I see it.

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Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

Morphs are genetic mutations of certain genes. While a genetic disorder is usually something detrimental to the well-being of the animal.

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I agree with that Jeff...Then IMO the Spider gene is a genetic mutation...The handful of Spiders (and my 1.1 Bees) sure don't have a disorder that is detrimental to their well-being...Just my 2 cents...
BT

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Originally Posted by ama1997

http://forum.8ballpythons.com/blog/?p=5

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The provided link agrees with me that normal sibs do not exhibit the trait. What are you trying to say???

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Originally Posted by pfan151

This is just my opinion on this. I don't look down on anyone who feels differently but I do not think an animal with a genetic disorder should be bred. I don't think that just because an animal can survive and reproduce means a negative trait should be encouraged. No one really knows what the actual snake is feeling. I can't imagine it is pleasant especially in some of the more severe cases. I do wonder sometimes if peoples reaction to the "wobble" would be different if it occured in a certain dog breed instead of BP's.

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But how do you know it's a disorder, or a negative trait? I'm asking mostly because I'm curious about it...
I have a friend who has a pretty bad tic every time he talks...it makes him seem really awkward as a first impression...should he not breed either?
I mean, my husband and I both have really fair skin, and our children would most likely burn very easily every time they go into the sun...should we not reproduce?
Genetic variations are not automatically negative. Do you also have a problem with albinos? Just wondering because I actually kind of do, but mostly because I know that it's a negative trait in that it leaves the animal/person with severely reduced defenses against the sun. (My kids will at least be able to go out with some SPF 15 and be ok...heh)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Many visual morphs can be described as the inhibition of certain workings and traits in the cells. Whether it is the over production of pigment, the inhibition of certain pigments, or the placement of pigments during embryo development, they are most often "stopping" the cells from working and doing their jobs properly, resulting in our morphs.

These are very often passed down through simple recessives or co-dominant inheritance. Making it a genetic mutation (disorder).

If it is an attribute that is detrimental to the survival of the animal and bodily function, and is inherited through simple Mendelian understanding, I would call it a genetic disease.

They are all "disorders", but the severity to how they inhibit the natural and perfect workings in the animal warrants a different label I think. I could be wrong about the labels, but that's how I see it.

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Genetic Mutation- (genetics) any event that changes genetic structure; any alteration in the inherited nucleic acid sequence of the genotype of an organism

Genetic Disorder- genetic disorder
n. A pathological condition caused by an absent or defective gene or by a chromosomal aberration. Also called hereditary disease, inherited disorder.

Source: Dictionary.com

Morphs are mutations, no doubt, but I would be hesitant to call it a disorder. As stated above, disorders are usually detrimental to the animal or "pathological", which is usually disease.

As of now Spider don't do anything that normal balls don't do, besides a little wobble. If it doesn't affect the life span, feeding, breeding habits, then to me it is not a disorder yet. We also havn't been keeping spiders long enough to determine if that is the case or not.

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Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

Genetic Mutation- (genetics) any event that changes genetic structure; any alteration in the inherited nucleic acid sequence of the genotype of an organism

Genetic Disorder- genetic disorder
n. A pathological condition caused by an absent or defective gene or by a chromosomal aberration. Also called hereditary disease, inherited disorder.

Source: Dictionary.com

Morphs are mutations, no doubt, but I would be hesitant to call it a disorder. As stated above, disorders are usually detrimental to the animal or "pathological", which is usually disease.

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I'm not gonna run and look up definitions, and I wasn't arguing if mine was right or not.

Like I said, many morphs are easily explained by what they are prohibiting in the body of the cell. Either by deletion of genes, or chromosomal aberration limiting certain functions.

I'm applying the genetics I know about rat colors and coats to snake morphs. It's essentially the same thing, just different animal.

But by the dictionary definition of genetic mutations:

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Genetic Mutation- (genetics) any event that changes genetic structure; any alteration in the inherited nucleic acid sequence of the genotype of an organism

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I would hesitate to call simple snake morphs mutations. Rereading the definition states clearly that it is an event that changes the genetic structure. Any alteration in the inherited nucleic acid sequence.

Sounds more like a mutated DNA strand and not a gene that is inherited that produces such effects. (even though I'm sure they are out there)

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Genetic Disorder- genetic disorder
n. A pathological condition caused by an absent or defective gene or by a chromosomal aberration. Also called hereditary disease, inherited disorder.

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This sounds more like what a snake morph is to me, still just applying what I know about rat color genetics

Either way, what does it really matter?

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I'm not gonna run and look up definitions, and I wasn't arguing if mine was right or not.

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Guess now you are?

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Like I said, many morphs are easily explained by what they are prohibiting in the body of the cell. Either by deletion of genes, or chromosomal aberration limiting certain functions.

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I would hesitate to call simple snake morphs mutations. Rereading the definition states clearly that it is an event that changes the genetic structure. Any alteration in the inherited nucleic acid sequence.

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You said it yourself that some morphs are "easily" explained by turning certain things off in certain cells or changing things. That in itself is a mutation.

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Sounds more like a mutated DNA strand and not a gene that is inherited that produces such effects. (even though I'm sure they are out there)

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DNA is a just a sequence of genes. Also if it was a combination of mutated genes, morphs would not be passed down as easily as they are.

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Either way, what does it really matter?

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It really doesn't matter, its just the terms don't make sense the way you are using them.

Genetic disorders are more or less diseases and by saying all morphs are diseases is way off.

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Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

Guess now you are?






You said it yourself that some morphs are "easily" explained by turning certain things off in certain cells or changing things. That in itself is a mutation.



DNA is a just a sequence of genes. Also if it was a combination of mutated genes, morphs would not be passed down as easily as they are.





Not really, its just the terms don't make sense the way you are using them.

Genetic disorders are more or less diseases and by saying all morphs are diseases is way off.

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LOL, I was just using your definitions from your post. I still stand by my explanation, but to each his own. ;)