Axanthic

i've been reading a lot about breeding and genetics, and I think I have it figured out but wanted to ask anyways. I'm learning that right now i'm better off talking to people before making any more purchases.

Axanthic is recessive, so it won't show up till it has both Axanthic genes from both sides. if I got a 100% het male, and a 100% het female and bred them, Would that produce a visible axanthic (if the BP gods smile upon me) or would I have to hold back and breed the babies to the adults to produce one? Am i better off spending the money on already visible Axanthic?

i have the same question for lavendar albino, since my husband likes the looks of those.

You are right...If you breed 2 100% hets together you have a 1 in 4 chance to produce the Homozygous animal.

The normal appearing babies produced are 66% possible hets.

Same with the Lav.

VPI Axanthic
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...thicfemale.jpg

Yes! When 100% het Axanthics bred together will give each egg a 1 in 4 chance of coming out 100% Axanthic. All the rest will look normal with 2 out of 3 probabilities of them having the Het Axanthic gene. This is where the 66% possible het comes from. This is the method my wife and I are using to try and make Axanthics and Pieds. Should work the same for lavender Albinos as well

beautiful snake!

so basically for the price of two 100% het's and a few years of patience till they get breeding size, i would have the chance at a visible axanthic or lavender albino. I know, the gods don't always allow you to get what you want first go round.

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Originally Posted by Kalitta

beautiful snake!

so basically for the price of two 100% het's and a few years of patience till they get breeding size, i would have the chance at a visible axanthic or lavender albino. I know, the gods don't always allow you to get what you want first go round.

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And the price of feeding them, housing them, and building an incubator if you do not already have one. Otherwise yes!

feeding, and housing are things i already factor into the 'price' of the snake. I'm not buying any more snakes anytime soon though, was just curious because of the genes being recessive.

Thank you for the information.

i was reading more about axanthic, and came across a few websites that said the three diffrent lines of proven axanthic (vpi, tks, and jolliff) are not compatable with each other.

i wasn't sure what this ment, if I had a 100% het vpi and a 100% het tks... and bred them, wouldn't that produce an axanthic?

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Originally Posted by Kalitta

i was reading more about axanthic, and came across a few websites that said the three diffrent lines of proven axanthic (vpi, tks, and jolliff) are not compatable with each other.

i wasn't sure what this ment, if I had a 100% het vpi and a 100% het tks... and bred them, wouldn't that produce an axanthic?

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Two of the axanthic lines have shown the ability to be cross compatible and I think but am not sure that it is the TSK and Joliff lines. A fourth line of Axanthic exists and it is the Nerd line. Generally speaking from what I have read and seen the VPI line is classified as the best looking of them all with Nerd and TKS in a close run for second and third. The Joliff line seems to fade the fastest and the most. Best to make sure you get two axanthics from the same line to be safe.

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Axanthic is recessive, so it won't show up till it has both Axanthic genes from both sides. If I got a 100% het male, and a 100% het female and bred them, Would that produce a visible axanthic (if the BP gods smile upon me)

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Yes, only if both het axanthics are from the same compatible line. I have NOT heard that any of the major lines were compatible. If someone is making that claim I'd want to see proof that one of the animals was not actually a double het.

The current accepted major lines of axanthics are

VPI - recessive
TSK - recessive
Jollif - recessive
Red Axanthic - Co-Dominant

And as far as I know, none of them have been proven to be compatible with each other.

I don't know much about the NERD axanthics so can't say anything about them.

There are other lines of wild caught axanthic that are being worked on. There are axanthic looking animals imported every year from Africa, many have not even been proven to be genetic much less compatible with other lines

Mark

they are not compatible from what i heard and from the breeders i talked to if you breed an sk and a vpi you would get double het axanthics. if not compatible they would be normal looking snakes but double het for both of those axanthic traits

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Originally Posted by Kalitta

i was reading more about axanthic, and came across a few websites that said the three diffrent lines of proven axanthic (vpi, tks, and jolliff) are not compatable with each other.

i wasn't sure what this ment, if I had a 100% het vpi and a 100% het tks... and bred them, wouldn't that produce an axanthic?

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It depends on the genetics of it. The different traits could exist on different genes (that still have a similar effect) or they could be different alleles for the same gene (kind of like green or blue eyes, both of which are considered recessive in humans) and either way, breeding the two together would not result in an axanthic as you might expect, although if they're different alleles of the same gene, then it would probably produce a 3rd cool effect, and that doesn't sound like what's happening. For example (assuming different genes), if v=vpi, t=tks, N=normal....the genetic code could look something like this
TKS female: NNNtNNN-NNNtNNN
VPI male: NNvNNNN-NNvNNNN
(note: all the extra Ns are just filler...I didn't bother looking up how many genes are on each chromosome or anything- and it could even be that the different variants aren't on the same chromosome at all...just assume that the other Ns are coding for spider, pastel, length, etc...)
If you crossed them, because they are both homozygous for the recessive trait, you would get all double het babies:
NNvNNNN-NNNtNNN
So then if crossed with a het for either VPI or TKS, then you would again have a 1 in 4 chance of getting the respective trait to show up, 1 would be a double het, and one would be het for each trait (so the 3 normal offspring would each be 66% het for either trait, and 33% double het)
NNvNNNN-NNNtNNN (double het)
x
NNvNNNN-NNNNNNN (het for VPI)
=
NNvNNNN-NNvNNNN (VPI)
&
NNvNNNN-NNNNNNN (het for VPI)
&
NNNtNNN-NNNvNNN (double het)
&
NNNtNNN-NNNNNNN (het for TKS)

(If you bred the double het with a full VPI, you would get 2 VPIs and all the normal looking ones would be double hets)

wow long post, and I doubt I made anything clearer....That's why I don't want to be a teacher, lol

I assume that they don't know how exactly the genes do look, since there's all this debate about it, heh, but if anyone knows, I'd be curious :D

Also if anyone was wondering....the different alleles would look like this:
NNNtNNN-NNNtNNN (TKS)
x
NNNvNNN-NNNvNNN (VPI)
=
NNNtNNN-NNNvNNN (all double hets)
So the double het probably wouldn't look normal since he's got a t-v for the 4th gene, and has no N gene. So that's probably not the answer

AND finally I should mention that it's always possible that there's more than 1 gene encoding for the trait which would make it more complicated. Although I think if they're all on the same chromosome it should still work out...

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Yes, only if both het axanthics are from the same compatible line. I have NOT heard that any of the major lines were compatible. If someone is making that claim I'd want to see proof that one of the animals was not actually a double het.

The current accepted major lines of axanthics are

VPI - recessive
TSK - recessive
Jollif - recessive
Red Axanthic - Co-Dominant

And as far as I know, none of them have been proven to be compatible with each other.

I don't know much about the NERD axanthics so can't say anything about them.

Mark

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Actually I did a little more research and per Designer Morphs by John Berry 5 lines of recessive Axanthic exist. All of which origionated from different WC or CH ball pythons.

1. VPI
2. TSK
3. Jolliff
4. Nerd
5. D&M

Also as of the writing of the book TSK and D&M were proven to be compatable.

Ok, so I want a snake that is going to maintain it's coloration throughout it's life. I'm willing to put in the time to raise and breed Het's. and going through reputable dealers I could get a male and a female of the same line that are not siblings.

Now, what would the sibling that are not visible axanthic? 66% possible het axanthic?

pastel axanthic it will stay silver and black

better yet super pastel axanthic

so how do you create one of those? breed a pastel to an axanthic?

breed a pastel to an axanthic then breed the pastel het axanthics back to the parent

breed it back to the axanthic parent? or the pastel parent?

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Originally Posted by Kalitta

breed it back to the axanthic parent? or the pastel parent?

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The Axanthic parent.

Also the VPI line is probably the cleanest and the one that fades the least as just an Axanthic.

sorry i didnt realize that i didnt finish my statement til just now you would breed one of the pastel hets back to the axanthic parent if u went and bred back to the pastel parent you would get super pastel 50% pos het for axanthic i know they have a picture of one on oe ralph davis's website
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/ma...astel_nerd.asp

hope its ok i use his link

You could start off with a Pastel 100% het Axanthic and breed it to a het Axanthic or an Axanthic to make the Pastel Axanthic...

VPI Axanthic x Blonde Pastel
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...stel003l-1.jpg

Blonde Pastel 100% het VPI Axanthic
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...anthic033s.jpg

I'm so in love with the way they look. Let me start with just getting the axanthic het's, long term goals!

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Originally Posted by Monty

breed a pastel to an axanthic then breed the pastel het axanthics back to the parent

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Here are a few pics of a Pastel Red Axanthic from 2007.

http://www.coreywoods.com/PastelRedA...nthic_7186.jpg

Red Axanthic, Pastel Red Axanthic, Pastel het Red Axanthic, Het Red Axanthic (All from the same clutch).

http://www.coreywoods.com/PastelRedA...nthic_7217.jpg

Pastel Red Axanthic at about 6 months old.

http://www.coreywoods.com/Misc/Paste...nthic_8954.jpg

Pastel Red Axanthic and Red Axanthic

http://www.coreywoods.com/Misc/PRA_RA_8974.jpg

Opal (Super Pastel) Het Red Axanthic

http://www.coreywoods.com/Misc/OpalHetRA_8931.jpg

Corey