Live Feeding Morally Wrong???

I recently started looking up videos of other people feeding their snakes on youtube. I really saw some beautiful snakes and it was awesome observing other peoples feeding techniques. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised... but I was completely shocked to see the amount of comments made on those videos of people Bashing Us ... Calling us animal abusers, and making claims of Animal cruelty. The most common comment was people saying"Burn in hell..." and "I hope you get killed by a snake someday." Those I can brush off as common immaturity and ignorance... But when people accuse me of animal abuse and tell me that what I am doing is morally wrong and disgusting... as a complete animal lover I take it personally offensive. I started spewing bits of fact and knowledge to try to educate readers in the most respectful way possible... But I will admit that I encountered some serious ignorance which had no other way to be dealt with than to just tell them how it is. (if you know what I mean).

Anyway I personally feed live and occasionally stunned... Because I believe the act of killing live prey is a programmed part of the animals instinct as a predator. I feel like it takes something away from the snake if you neglect them of this activity. They would try to tell me that it is not natural because the rat has no chance in an enclosed environment. I don't know what they want me to do... Let my 6 foot Boa and my 4 foot Ball loose in the backyard ... so that they can feed more "naturally" (my boa would probably try to eat a cat). I tried to explain that just because the animal is in captivity does not mean that you should neglect it of it's natural way of feeding. Animals raised for feeding is no worse than the process that put dinner on our plate. If anything this is a more natural death for an animal than the way our food is killed. Anyway, I think I could have wrote a small book about it by the time I was done trying to get a few people to understand.

I don't want this to become an argument here on F/T vs Live. An educated respectful debate is always informative and welcome. What I really want to know is if anyone has encountered this kind of ignorance in your adventures in herping... and how did you handle it?

people will always see it as cruel, but its natural for snakes to feed on live, as all as people are doing is replicating the natural habitayts and behaviours.

perhaps someone should call peta and ask them if its natural for puppies to just mysteriously fly off the same bridge!

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Originally Posted by nixer

perhaps someone should call peta and ask them if its natural for puppies to just mysteriously fly off the same bridge!

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LOL! That is funny... Honestly .. Some of the things I have read about that group make me wanna be sick.

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Originally Posted by nixer

perhaps someone should call peta and ask them if its natural for puppies to just mysteriously fly off the same bridge!

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Or end up in a dumpster, dead!

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Originally Posted by reptilicious

people will always see it as cruel, but its natural for snakes to feed on live, as all as people are doing is replicating the natural habitayts and behaviours.

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Exactly....
What do these people think snakes eat in the wild? Maybe you should comment that if you let your snakes go they might eat their pet cats so you're doing them a favour. :P

It's just people being ignorant really. I don;t feed my BP or Cali King live but that's only because I don't want the mouse hurting the snake.

in the uk, feeding live is considered a total sin, even with the majority of snake keepers, which really annoys me, i have fed live and have no problems doing so, but i mainly feed frozen.defrost as its easier, but i also have a good supply of live rats.

I like my steak bloody! My snakes like their rat stakes fresh as possible. I see as pampering them by selecting the perfect rat for dinner in the same way my wife would be pampering me with a big steak, baked potato, green beens, small side of greens, and a good beer! :gj:

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

I recently started looking up videos of other people feeding their snakes on youtube. I really saw some beautiful snakes and it was awesome observing other peoples feeding techniques. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised... but I was completely shocked to see the amount of comments made on those videos of people Bashing Us ... Calling us animal abusers, and making claims of Animal cruelty. The most common comment was people saying"Burn in hell..." and "I hope you get killed by a snake someday." Those I can brush off as common immaturity and ignorance... But when people accuse me of animal abuse and tell me that what I am doing is morally wrong and disgusting... as a complete animal lover I take it personally offensive. I started spewing bits of fact and knowledge to try to educate readers in the most respectful way possible... But I will admit that I encountered some serious ignorance which had no other way to be dealt with than to just tell them how it is. (if you know what I mean).

Anyway I personally feed live and occasionally stunned... Because I believe the act of killing live prey is a programmed part of the animals instinct as a predator. I feel like it takes something away from the snake if you neglect them of this activity. They would try to tell me that it is not natural because the rat has no chance in an enclosed environment. I don't know what they want me to do... Let my 6 foot Boa and my 4 foot Ball loose in the backyard ... so that they can feed more "naturally" (my boa would probably try to eat a cat). I tried to explain that just because the animal is in captivity does not mean that you should neglect it of it's natural way of feeding. Animals raised for feeding is no worse than the process that put dinner on our plate. If anything this is a more natural death for an animal than the way our food is killed. Anyway, I think I could have wrote a small book about it by the time I was done trying to get a few people to understand.

I don't want this to become an argument here on F/T vs Live. An educated respectful debate is always informative and welcome. What I really want to know is if anyone has encountered this kind of ignorance in your adventures in herping... and how did you handle it?

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I wonder how those people posting those remarks think a snake eats in the wild? They do not stroll up to the local SNAKEYD'S(thier version of mickyd's :rofl:) and ask for a frozen thawed rat sandwich :P

In Germany we have pretty stirct rules about animal cruelty,but you can still feed live.
But it is illegal to kill any animal with a spine(i think the right us word is mammal or something,sorry i just know the germa word).

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Originally Posted by joepythons

I wonder how those people posting those remarks think a snake eats in the wild? They do not stroll up to the local SNAKEYD'S(thier version of mickyd's :rofl:) and ask for a frozen thawed rat sandwich :P

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Exactly... I tried to explain to these people that snakes are natural predators... Not scavengers. I think they should be able to exercise predatory instinct even in captivity.

It just proved the ignorance of these people when they caved in to my argument by stating that they "understood"... The real problem they had was that "people post this sick animal abuse on youtube!" She tried to convince me that it should not be on there because there were "a lot of people who were offended by it." When they voluntarily click on links called "Feeding my Python", and "Anaconda eats Gerbil". For people like us that is some quality material that will hold our interest. But if you can't handle you shouldn't watch.... simple as that. That is when I realized I was dealing with some serious ignorance and I would get nowhere with this person.

I tell people humans can eat 1000's of different things but many of us choose to eat some kind of meat. Just because it comes nicely packaged in plastic wrap and styrofoam tray it is still an animal that was killed for consumption(go watch a video of a slaughter house, much worse). Many parts of the animal are discarded(bones, fur etc...) and wasted, but it's ok because it tastes good. Dont get me wrong I love steak but I dont feel I am the only species who is morally allowed to consume animal meat.

Snakes only eat one thing on the planet, rodents. they cant change their mind and eat anything else. they waste not a drop of their meal and it is the natural order of life. Rodents are designed to multiply in large #'s because they are a vital part of the food chain which is Natures/God's design (for the holyier than thou minded people who think we should burn in hell LOL) not mine or the snakes.

Also if a bunch of rats were running around your home most people would call an exterminator to kill them, somehow people feel only their ignorant comfort level is the gauge of what is right and wrong.

I grow orchids and most people have no problem seeing the beauty in them but when I say my snakes also are beautiful works of natures art, they dont quite get it but do get some kind of reference.

Closed minded people will always compare snakes with evil so them eating appears evil to them. I can understand that some people dont enjoy watching a mouse get eaten(my wife wont) and I can respect that but why do they watch a snake feeding video and say how messed up it is? There are some things I'm not comfortable watching but guess what, I dont watch them.

You feed your snake what it's willing to eat, but you will still never convince some people about the necessity of feeding live.... And by the way, feeding live because it's 'natural' is NOT a good enough reason. BUT... why on earth do people feel the need to film it and put it on YouTube? I think a lot of the reason some people do that is for the shock value anyway, so the comments they are getting is just what they're looking for. Do people film their dogs eating a can of alpo and put THAT on YouTube?? NO..... So why snakes? It's NOT necessary and it's NOT needed to film this. If you want to impress somebody, film your boa taking a dump and put THAT on YouTube.

I was buying a couple mice at a pet store, and this snot nosed little teenage girl said, "Are those for feeding a snake?" I said yeah. She said, "Oh that's so mean!"

So I said, "So you'd rather the snake starve to death? That's so mean!" lol

I then kept going: "Ever heard of the Black Plague? Those poor defenseless disease carrying disgusting rodents and their fleas killed off a quarter of your ancestors in Europe about 500 years ago... it's pay back time!"

I've learned you're never going to get people who don't agree with you to "understand". It's a quasi-religious belief to those people. And don't even get me started with Germans and their laws and beliefs on animal cruelty... I'm pretty sure it's a law you can't spray ant killer, you have to call out a specialist to remove the ant colony to another location or some weird crap like that...

Reason is wasted on morons, so just mock them. It's the only thing that will make your day better :)

China... Islam? The west is weak, we're ready to be taken over any day now!

I personally pre-kill my food, but I don't think feeding live is immoral. I PK due to two main reasons: the safety of my snakes and the prey is instantly killed without feeling any pain.

Now I don't see much of a reason to feed live and film it. Especially if you've seen the piranah feeding videos. The poor mice get ripped to pieces, limb by limb.

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Originally Posted by bait4snake

I was buying a couple mice at a pet store, and this snot nosed little teenage girl said, "Are those for feeding a snake?" I said yeah. She said, "Oh that's so mean!"

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You really can't reason with these people. Every single person that has berated me about feeding live rodents to my snakes always use the "cute" and "defenseless" arguments. "How could you feed a defenseless little mouse to a snake?" "You don't feel bad about killing that cute mouse?". I guarantee these people only give a damn about mice because they're "cute".

Not many people would be upset if snakes' diets consisted solely of spiders. I'd go as far as to say that a majority of people would have a much more positive opinion of snakes if that were the case. But what makes a spider's life less valuable than a rodent's? They all play an equally essential role in the food chain. One just happens to look prettier than the other to most humans.

Something has to control the rodent population. Snakes have been genetically programmed to do just that. Animals can't help the way they kill their food. It's a part of their basic instincts. Besides, nature doesn't care if you think something is too cute to be eaten. End of story.

I personally don't think it's morally wrong to feed a ball python "live" prey. It's called "nature" in my opinion. It is a natural instinct for them to feed on live prey. Regardless of whether or not they are captive they still have the drive to feed on live prey.

As goes for feeding in the tank or out. I feed outside of the tank. All of my snakes are used to it, and it doesn't seem to bother them. I usually wait to remove them from the feeding container until they move around quite a bit after swallowing. But the BIGGEST reason I feed outside of their tank is because if you continue to feed in the tank they will associate food with thier home. I would rather not try to pick one of my snakes up and them mistake me for food.

I just always wonder about the folks that think the mouse is so "cute and defenseless". Would they be the same people screaming to the rooftops if that same mouse was running across their kitchen countertops, defecating and urinating in their breakfast cereal? Would they honor it's life due to it's extreme "cuteness factor" or would they run to call an exterminator or set a trap?

I think part of what upsets some people about live feeding is that they themselves are completely disconnected with the act of feeding even themselves. Pork chops don't just magically show up nicely wrapped in plastic down at the Kroger store. They used to be a cute piglet, then later they went through a meat processing/slaughterhouse process but that's a distasteful thought to some. I know kids that are friends of my 6 year old that their parents won't tell them that pork chops used to be a living pig! How absolutely crazy is that!

I do think there are a number of YouTube video's though that don't do our community any good. They show idiots acting like idiots...they just happen to own snakes (really too bad for those snakes). Those sorts of video's tend to portray people that own snakes as mean spirited, uncaring, "look at my cool freaky pet!" sorts and that gives a less than complete image of most of the snake owners out there.

I post videos on youtube so I can download them back if I ever want them one day.
My computer constantly breaks down and my data is deleted.

And yes, people are odd.
My aunt left my house because I had my BP out.

Even my aprents where stunned, they thought she was kidding around.

I find nothing morally wrong with feeding live in any sense.

On another note...If you look into some recent studies though, many debate on the larger boid species actually asphyxiating their prey. Death sets in entirely too quickly. From data gathered on their studies, it looks as though a large amount of pressure is put on the chest cavity, causing the animals heart to stop. I'd find it less painful, or stressful than previously agreed upon views of suffocation.

With beardies,gecko`s etc... feeding dead crickets/canned crickets is considered a bad thing to a lot of keepers,they say you should only feed live as it replicates their natural behaviour............

So why is it the other way round with snakes?

Feeding defrost rodents is easier in some ways, especially if your squeemish, A lot of people say that rodents will hurt your snake, and yes this happens sometimes, with my snakes if i fed 100 live i doubt 1 of them would get bit by the rodent, snakes are meant to feed live so they are experts in feeding, they have done it for thousands of years.
Also you get better feeders with live feeding.

As from the on snake keepers point of view, i can see why they may find it cruel, but they need to realise that its natural and theres thousands of snakes in the word at any one time doing exactly the same thing in the wild.

I once got a message on myspace... It said how cruel i was and that she keeps cats and dogs which are all vegetarians lol... sorry, but thats cruel!

she then went on to tell me that any animal in the world can become a vegetarian and that theres no reason why snakes cant become vege`s!!
Well i told her exactly where to go after trying to educate her and she wouldnt listen, she was a complete extremist!

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Originally Posted by elusivereptiles

I personally don't think it's morally wrong to feed a ball python "live" prey. It's called "nature" in my opinion. It is a natural instinct for them to feed on live prey. Regardless of whether or not they are captive they still have the drive to feed on live prey.

As goes for feeding in the tank or out. I feed outside of the tank. All of my snakes are used to it, and it doesn't seem to bother them. I usually wait to remove them from the feeding container until they move around quite a bit after swallowing. But the BIGGEST reason I feed outside of their tank is because if you continue to feed in the tank they will associate food with thier home. I would rather not try to pick one of my snakes up and them mistake me for food.

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I can see the reasoning here but with frequent handling (so putting your hands in the enclosure for reasons other than feeding), feeding inside an enclosure should not turn your snake into a hand hungry monster. But this is not the topic here and I am not trying to debate;) just pointing out the other side of the story.

When I told my boyfriends mom what I feed my bp she freaked out, but she was still interested. After several talks with her about WHY I HAVE TO feed my bp mice/rats, she understands that the snake and his set up cost alot of money and to decide at this point that "oh that pooor little mouse, I think I'll let my bp starve and save that poor little $2 mouse" would be throwing away a lot of money (she didn't care much for the "but I love him so much feeding him a mouse makes me happy because I know he's healthy" explanation) She is also terrified of snakes but slowly coming around.

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Originally Posted by reptilicious

With beardies,gecko`s etc... feeding dead crickets/canned crickets is considered a bad thing to a lot of keepers,they say you should only feed live as it replicates their natural behaviour............

So why is it the other way round with snakes?

Feeding defrost rodents is easier in some ways, especially if your squeemish, A lot of people say that rodents will hurt your snake, and yes this happens sometimes, with my snakes if i fed 100 live i doubt 1 of them would get bit by the rodent, snakes are meant to feed live so they are experts in feeding, they have done it for thousands of years.
Also you get better feeders with live feeding.

As from the on snake keepers point of view, i can see why they may find it cruel, but they need to realise that its natural and theres thousands of snakes in the word at any one time doing exactly the same thing in the wild.

I once got a message on myspace... It said how cruel i was and that she keeps cats and dogs which are all vegetarians lol... sorry, but thats cruel!

she then went on to tell me that any animal in the world can become a vegetarian and that theres no reason why snakes cant become vege`s!!
Well i told her exactly where to go after trying to educate her and she wouldnt listen, she was a complete extremist!

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O how dare you feed "live" crickets :O.They make nice music and stuff in the summer :(.Of course i am just joking here folks :P.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

O how dare you feed "live" crickets :O.They make nice music and stuff in the summer :(.Of course i am just joking here folks :P.

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:rofl: lol!

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Originally Posted by reptilicious

:rofl: lol!

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Why thank you :gj:

The funny thing is that those people who complain about the ”cute ” little mouse being fed to “a mean” snake don’t complain much about the steak they have in their plate!

Of course when you get your T-Bone from the grocery store there is no cute factor, but are those people living on another planet? Don’t they know where the package meat originally comes from?

And I wonder if those people could not find their meat at the grocery store, would they

A# Learn to hunt
B# Become vegetarian

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Originally Posted by MarkS

You feed your snake what it's willing to eat, but you will still never convince some people about the necessity of feeding live.... And by the way, feeding live because it's 'natural' is NOT a good enough reason. BUT... why on earth do people feel the need to film it and put it on YouTube? I think a lot of the reason some people do that is for the shock value anyway, so the comments they are getting is just what they're looking for. Do people film their dogs eating a can of alpo and put THAT on YouTube?? NO..... So why snakes? It's NOT necessary and it's NOT needed to film this. If you want to impress somebody, film your boa taking a dump and put THAT on YouTube.

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Well, how exciting is it when your dog is eating a can of Alpo? If my dog caught a bird and starting eating it, you're damn right i'd film it and put it on youtube.

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Originally Posted by Bait4Snake

I then kept going: "Ever heard of the Black Plague? Those poor defenseless disease carrying disgusting rodents and their fleas killed off a quarter of your ancestors in Europe about 500 years ago... It's pay back time!"

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Hahahaha! I'm going to use this! Everytime I feed now, i'm going to say something to the rat along the lines of "This is for uncle Tony!"

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Originally Posted by _Venom_

I post videos on youtube so I can download them back if I ever want them one day.
My computer constantly breaks down and my data is deleted.

And yes, people are odd.
My aunt left my house because I had my BP out.

Even my aprents where stunned, they thought she was kidding around.

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I put up a video of my snake eating that I edited, and I'm removing my other two feeding videos. I mainly put them on there for my friends to check out, but now I just don't really care. I think we film them eating because them just slithering around isn't really that interesting.

ive got some vids of my albino burm feeding, no silly comments as yet, but i expect to get some lol
http://www.youtube.com/user/reptilicious

i have my comments so i have to approve them first

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I once got a message on myspace... It said how cruel i was and that she keeps cats and dogs which are all vegetarians lol... Sorry, but thats cruel!

she then went on to tell me that any animal in the world can become a vegetarian and that theres no reason why snakes cant become vege`s!!

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Actually, a dog CAN survive on an all vegetarian diet, but it has to have all the right stuff for complete nutrition, however a cat on an all vegetarian diet will eventually go blind. There is a certain amino acid for a cats eye health that is only found in animal products. I don't remember what it is though.

I'm sorry. Dogs and cats on a vegetarian diet is just cruel. While a dog can survive on a vegetarian diet doesn't mean its the best thing for them and those who feed their dogs a vegetarian diet are forcing their beliefs on an animal that needs to be eating meat. I am vegetarian myself but ANY animal in this house that eats meat, gets meat. I even have to cut up bloody pieces of meat for my ferret because I know thats the best thing for her. And as far as cats on a vegetarian diet, that is cruel, plain and simple. That's like feeding a ferret corn on the cob for the rest of its life.

As for snakes and live feeding, several of ours get live. Some get f/t. It all depends on who wants what. While I am against animal abuse, my snakes eating a live mouse is natural and therefore I'm not out to force my snake to eat a carrot. And I'm so tired of people going "Oh, poor defenseless mouse. I can't believe you are going to let your snake eat that cute thing." I really just want to shout "Well at least the mouse won't suffer very long. That steak you just bought for dinner. Yea, that cow was tortured while it grew up, yanked from its mother at a young age, fed a horrible diet, was injected with hormones and antibiotics, cramped into horrible living conditions while it grew up, crowded onto a nasty truck, carted to a slaughterhouse where it received a bolt through its head (but sometimes they missed) and then strung up by its hindleg, had its throat slit but sometimes that didn't work so well and the cow was there, hanging by its hoof, bleeding to death for you to have your steak." I think that would make them shut up long enough for me to buy my feeders and go.

(sorry for the long rant about the production of beef. I just can't stand how people go on and on about how much a mouse suffers at the mercy of my steak, yet they go home and have no second thoughts about that steak they are eating. It just really gets my blood boiling.)

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

I'm sorry. Dogs and cats on a vegetarian diet is just cruel. While a dog can survive on a vegetarian diet doesn't mean its the best thing for them and those who feed their dogs a vegetarian diet are forcing their beliefs on an animal that needs to be eating meat. I am vegetarian myself but ANY animal in this house that eats meat, gets meat. I even have to cut up bloody pieces of meat for my ferret because I know thats the best thing for her. And as far as cats on a vegetarian diet, that is cruel, plain and simple. That's like feeding a ferret corn on the cob for the rest of its life.

As for snakes and live feeding, several of ours get live. Some get f/t. It all depends on who wants what. While I am against animal abuse, my snakes eating a live mouse is natural and therefore I'm not out to force my snake to eat a carrot. And I'm so tired of people going "Oh, poor defenseless mouse. I can't believe you are going to let your snake eat that cute thing." I really just want to shout "Well at least the mouse won't suffer very long. That steak you just bought for dinner. Yea, that cow was tortured while it grew up, yanked from its mother at a young age, fed a horrible diet, was injected with hormones and antibiotics, cramped into horrible living conditions while it grew up, crowded onto a nasty truck, carted to a slaughterhouse where it received a bolt through its head (but sometimes they missed) and then strung up by its hindleg, had its throat slit but sometimes that didn't work so well and the cow was there, hanging by its hoof, bleeding to death for you to have your steak." I think that would make them shut up long enough for me to buy my feeders and go.

(sorry for the long rant about the production of beef. I just can't stand how people go on and on about how much a mouse suffers at the mercy of my steak, yet they go home and have no second thoughts about that steak they are eating. It just really gets my blood boiling.)

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No real argument from me here, but just wanted to say.. Not all beef is put in horrible conditions before it's slaughtered. Where I live (North Texas) there's beef cattle all over the place, and most of them are in large fields and grow up with their parents. They are still taken, sold and slaughtered, but the majority of them don't suffer until the very end.

I'm not standing up for these fools, and I've even mentioned the beef thing, but just wanted to clear the air, that's not how all beef cattle is kept.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

You feed your snake what it's willing to eat, but you will still never convince some people about the necessity of feeding live.... And by the way, feeding live because it's 'natural' is NOT a good enough reason. BUT... why on earth do people feel the need to film it and put it on YouTube? I think a lot of the reason some people do that is for the shock value anyway, so the comments they are getting is just what they're looking for. Do people film their dogs eating a can of alpo and put THAT on YouTube?? NO..... So why snakes? It's NOT necessary and it's NOT needed to film this. If you want to impress somebody, film your boa taking a dump and put THAT on YouTube.

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Thanks for all the responses!!! I wanted to respond to yours Mark... I'm not sure I quite understand what you mean by saying that feeding live is becasue it's natural is NOT a good enough reason. I by no means am attacking your oppinion ...My personal feeling is that just because a snake will eat dead does not mean that is what is best for the snake... Often times in that situation F/T is all they are offered until they cave in to eating it, probably because they are starving. There are pro's and con's to both ways of feeding. There are nutritional benifits to feeding live vs F/T. But when feeding live there is always a small risk of your snake become harmed from defensive prey. My opinion is that considering the pro's and cons of both feeding methods... The fact is that it is part of their natural behavior to hunt and kill live prey... That Is the deciding factor for me in how I choose to feed.

As far as posting video's of this on youtube... I can see how some people could want to see this out of some sick pleasure. But speaking for myself as the owner of a constantly growing Large RTB that will probably have to gradute to eating larger prey items in the near future, I was excited to learn that I could find videos that allowed me to observe this. I had never had the opportunity to watch the feeding of a 12 foot albino burm... It was very facinating.

Frankly, I stated to them that if they could not resist clicking on links that offend them... Then they should really stop playing on the internet. I had a hard time seeing a pig get slaughtered for food... But fact is that this is what is necessary to eat, So while the image was incredibaly disturbing... I also found it educational. Over the last hundered years our society has learned to shelter us from most of the ugly details, where before if you couldn't handle killing an animal for food... you would most likely starve to death. I find nothing wrong with posting snake feeding videos on the internet... Especially with all the material on the web that is actually intended for sick demented pleasures of messed up people. Fact is you could probably post a video of any random thing at all... and there will always be someone who is offeneded. These people are just showing off there snakes... I don't mind seeing the snake being handled, or just sitting in its enclosure... But honestly, I would rather see it in action... doing what it does best. Sorry for the long winded reponse ... I type quick

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Originally Posted by Skoalbasher

No real argument from me here, but just wanted to say.. Not all beef is put in horrible conditions before it's slaughtered. Where I live (North Texas) there's beef cattle all over the place, and most of them are in large fields and grow up with their parents. They are still taken, sold and slaughtered, but the majority of them don't suffer until the very end.

I'm not standing up for these fools, and I've even mentioned the beef thing, but just wanted to clear the air, that's not how all beef cattle is kept.

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Oh I know, but for most thats how it is. I would really like to find a place to get good quality, cruel free meat for my animals, especially since we plan on getting more ferrets (the main raw meat eater in the house. The cats get dry cat food)

There is absolutely nothing "morally" wrong about it.
This is Nature. If you don't want to read something that may offend you, please stop now and do not read the rest of my post. Also...its really long because I'm bored at work...

I am constantly astounded at the inability for most people to have a rational viewpoint on anything. Inconsistency in one's beliefs is the fastest way to tell if someone is just flat-out immature or a completely irrational person. I wonder if these same people, who cry over a "cute" mouse being eaten by a "mean" snake would say that those mother mice who eat their babies should "burn in hell?" What about male lions who will kill their own cubs if the cub is young enough?

Just remember, it's okay for humans to torture animals from the moment they're born for our own benefit, because we are special. We need our McBurgers and our chicken finger boxes. It does not matter how the cow died, because it's not as cute as a little mouse! It does not matter if the chickens suffer in cages that are too small and that their beaks are cut. Pass the BBQ sauce! Don't get me started on the veal calf. If they are so concerned about the poor, pathetic, helpless little mouse, where is their anger for these helpless creatures?

Do these kids who post barely understandable comments on YouTube flip out about endangered species? Where is their indignation for the people who destroy rain forests? What about the snow leopards? Do they get angry about the wolves who are being killed in Alaska right now? How about the dwindling biodiversity in Alabama's rivers?

As long as we are far removed from an issue that could cause us to feel sick to our stomachs, we are free to ignore it. Iraq is way over there ---> Many people who eat burgers have never touched a cow or fed a chicken. If you're not a biologist or a sport fisher, then what do you care about trout? Grown wolves (not cute puppies!) kill people and are "mean" so they must not have any valuable place in the environment, right?
I grew up on a farm. I've milked cows and I've hunted deer. I am not far removed from what I eat, so when I see a snake make its kill it is not a shock to me. It's no different than when a coyote takes one of your sheep. My boyfriend, however, refuses to watch my snake eat. So yes, I can see how people might get upset about it if they have no idea what their steak dinner went through - or if they don't care to acknowledge it, but to say that it is morally wrong for a natural predatory creature to do what nature meant it to do is pure ignorance.

I think that the reason people get upset over snakes feeding is because it is so visceral and so real. It is one thing to watch a cheetah on the TV, in all her beauty, capture a baby impala and carry it over to her young so they can learn to hunt. People love to watch crocs lie and wait in the water, their eyes and nostrils above the surface calculating their assassination of that ugly wilder beast. It is another thing altogether to watch someone take his/her pet out of its cage and allow it to do what it has evolved to do - predate. That gets into their hostile heads and makes the reality of the suffering they introduce into the world too real.

*Please also note that I’m not saying that either live or F/T or P/K food is better or worse (I’d love to get mine eating F/T eventually) I am only attacking the YouTube people who don’t mind saying, “i hope u die and i hope ur F******snake dies you ****** burn in hell if i was there i'd kill ur snake f*****, etc.”

One more thing about Marks comment... I did see several videos that people posted of their pet cat or Dog toruring and killing a snake in the Yard while everyone stood around and laughed. Not bashing cats and dogs ...just making a point.

A great fact is that in the US yearly... The common house cat makes more live prey kills (be it a bird, wild snake, rat, or somebodys pet rodent), than any other animal in the wild or in captivity. My snakes eat once a week... while I had a cat who would leave a pile of kills by the slider in one day.

Food for thought.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

I'm sorry. Dogs and cats on a vegetarian diet is just cruel. While a dog can survive on a vegetarian diet doesn't mean its the best thing for them and those who feed their dogs a vegetarian diet are forcing their beliefs on an animal that needs to be eating meat. I am vegetarian myself but ANY animal in this house that eats meat, gets meat. I even have to cut up bloody pieces of meat for my ferret because I know thats the best thing for her. And as far as cats on a vegetarian diet, that is cruel, plain and simple. That's like feeding a ferret corn on the cob for the rest of its life.

As for snakes and live feeding, several of ours get live. Some get f/t. It all depends on who wants what. While I am against animal abuse, my snakes eating a live mouse is natural and therefore I'm not out to force my snake to eat a carrot. And I'm so tired of people going "Oh, poor defenseless mouse. I can't believe you are going to let your snake eat that cute thing." I really just want to shout "Well at least the mouse won't suffer very long. That steak you just bought for dinner. Yea, that cow was tortured while it grew up, yanked from its mother at a young age, fed a horrible diet, was injected with hormones and antibiotics, cramped into horrible living conditions while it grew up, crowded onto a nasty truck, carted to a slaughterhouse where it received a bolt through its head (but sometimes they missed) and then strung up by its hindleg, had its throat slit but sometimes that didn't work so well and the cow was there, hanging by its hoof, bleeding to death for you to have your steak." I think that would make them shut up long enough for me to buy my feeders and go.

(sorry for the long rant about the production of beef. I just can't stand how people go on and on about how much a mouse suffers at the mercy of my steak, yet they go home and have no second thoughts about that steak they are eating. It just really gets my blood boiling.)

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this is another one of those things that there are a few places that do it and they only show those few and people lean to think that its all of most of the places that do it that way. while yes there are a few places like this most of the farmers tend to treat their cattle very well this is their job and their source of income if they were to treat the cattle the way we see on tv they would not produce the quality of meat that people want and they would lose money in the long run. i have spent alot of time around beef farms i have assisted giving birth to a calf that i later called a t-bone steak, and spent countless hours with several farmers and any of them would be the first to call anyone out for the mistreatment of any cattle.

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

One more thing about Marks comment... I did see several videos that people posted of their pet cat or Dog toruring and killing a snake in the Yard while everyone stood around and laughed. Not bashing cats and dogs ...just making a point.

A great fact is that in the US yearly... The common house cat makes more live prey kills (be it a bird, wild snake, rat, or somebodys pet rodent), than any other animal in the wild or in captivity. My snakes eat once a week... while I had a cat who would leave a pile of kills by the slider in one day.

Food for thought.

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"domestic cats have been documented as the greatest single cause of bird mortality across the us. bird kills by other human causes including hunting, collisions against windows and communication towers and kills by cars all combined are less than a 1/3 of the cat predation. domestic cats of the us kill on the order of a billion 1,000,000 birds annually"

and thats all just for fun for the cat but then again cats are cute and snuggle in your lap and purr sweet nothings in your ear, so thats cool.

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and thats all just for fun for the cat but then again cats are cute and snuggle in your lap and purr sweet nothings in your ear, so thats cool.

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And then they attach themselves to your face, doling out bite wounds that become infected and actually require antibiotics for. And who cares that our lovely dogs and cats can carry rabies and other diseases that can be passed on to us.. Oh well! They're cute and fuzzy.. :confused:

Another thing I hear when I say "It is nature" is "Keepign a snake in a littel tankis not nature" As if they could differenciate a den from a hide in the wild.


Can they?:weirdface

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Originally Posted by _Venom_

Another thing I hear when I say "It is nature" is "Keepign a snake in a littel tankis not nature" As if they could differenciate a den from a hide in the wild.


Can they?:weirdface

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I Don't think most captive snakes would considering that life as they know it has always been in an enclosed environment.

Yea, people often accuse me of being cruel because I keep my snakes in a rack system.

Make the enclosure fit the snake, not try to make the snake fit the enclosure. Meaning simply, some snakes and reptiles require a lot of room. Balls like burrows and hides, my corn snake likes to bask out in the open.

Does my corn snake go in a rack? No, he gets a large enclosure, and he cruises around it, perches, burrows, basks on his rock, he finds all kinds of ways to use it. He prefers a larger enclosure,( he went off feed in a small short tub and rubbed his nose bad), just as the BP gets the short tub. It's what mine prefer.

this is a very touchy subject i think either way is acceptable because in the wild snakes dont eat dead stuff ignorant people who call us abusers dont noe any thing about snakes:salute:

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

One more thing about Marks comment... I did see several videos that people posted of their pet cat or Dog toruring and killing a snake in the Yard while everyone stood around and laughed. Not bashing cats and dogs ...just making a point.

A great fact is that in the US yearly... The common house cat makes more live prey kills (be it a bird, wild snake, rat, or somebodys pet rodent), than any other animal in the wild or in captivity. My snakes eat once a week... while I had a cat who would leave a pile of kills by the slider in one day.

Food for thought.

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Animal Planet's most Xtreme? It's true though, house cats are the number 1 killers in all the world.

When Mark was saying that using "it's nature" as an excuse is not a very good one is true. (that sentence wasn't very good on my part) It's not really how it's done in nature, but the truth is, it's natural.

Not nature, but Natural. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but if you understand it then you know what I mean.

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

I Don't think most captive snakes would considering that life as they know it has always been in an enclosed environment.

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I'm guessing a lot of them would die in the wild. I could be wrong, just my guess.

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I'm guessing a lot of them would die in the wild. I could be wrong, just my guess.

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Tell that to fish and wild life!

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Originally Posted by Skoalbasher

Animal Planet's most Xtreme? It's true though, house cats are the number 1 killers in all the world.

When Mark was saying that using "it's nature" as an excuse is not a very good one is true. (that sentence wasn't very good on my part) It's not really how it's done in nature, but the truth is, it's natural.

Not nature, but Natural. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but if you understand it then you know what I mean.

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Actually it was a Nat Geo Documentary that outlined the history of common house cats back to their roots when they were domesticated in ancient times to be rodent killers. Really interesting stuff.

I think I understand what your getting at... I have faced the argument to where they say "It is not nature when you drop a rat in a cage with no way to escape...". And I can see the validity in this argument... But what I am saying is... As a natural predator, whether captive or not, they are designed to hunt and kill small animals... I have heard people say "only mammals" but I have seen them feed on Chameleon in the wild as well as other lizards and snakes and what not.... But one thing I have never heard of (maybe it happens) is a wild snake consuming an animal that they did not kill. I think that choosing to feed my snake live because that is the way nature designed him to feed, as a predator, is a more than valid reason...I actually can't think of a better one.

I am not completely oposed to F/T, (when feeding dead is necessary I personally just smack the bag with the live rat on the floor, so there is no risk of injury to my snake, and they still get all the freshy goodness) But I believe the only reason F/T exists is for the convenience of the snake owner and not for the betterment of the snake. Yes injuries from live prey do happen... but as long as you feed appropriatly sized prey items, to a snake that is used to feeding live and almost always treatable.

Another side note... I find it funny how people call the demise of our feeder rodents cruel and unnatural... I would love to see a statistic for the number of Rodent Pets that die in captivity do to careless children who keep them as pets. You would be suprised the accidental deaths that become of a 10 y/o's hamster. My sister used to let her hammy roam in a ball... until it rolled out of her upstairs room and through a gap in the broken banister and fell to the first floor tile. Needless to say we had a funeral. It is not uncommon for kids to neglect their pets and let them starve. IMO This is a lot more cruel and unnatural way of dying for these critters than becoming snake prey.

*correction for above "but as long as you feed appropriatly sized prey items, to a snake that is used to feeding live,injuries rarely ever happen and are almost always treatable."

What I meant to say is in italics...

Bugs how I can't go back and edit after 10 min :(

Do people not know that F/T animals were once living?

i cant belive that with genocide, abortion, rape, murder, starvation, hiv, and everythin else going on in the world today people still find time to focus so much time on feeding live mice and britney spears kids..... just crazy if u ask me