Rufous Beaked Snake - African Colubrid?

This one is for anyone, but maybe Jack Spirko can help the most...? I read about it on his website blog in an entry called "Five Underrated African Snakes" (scroll down on http://www.housesnakes.net/blog/). It left me wanting more information. Sounds like an awesome snake to add to our collection... MAYBE.

Tell me ALL you know.

Thanks! :)

hey, that's a great find!

It's an interesting sounding snake and I want to know if I should eliminate it as an option out-right, or consider it. It's rear-fanged but there are no reports that it's harmful. No news is good news? Or am I kidding myself considering anything with fangs in the first place?

There is no reason to eliminate them as an option if you are willing to take care of them. They just need a big viv for their size because they love moving around. They are one of the most docile snakes in existence and they are no threat to humans. If you have any doubts where gloves. Simple cloth gloves and long sleeves are the only protection needed from rear fanged snakes. They have no fangs only rear large teeth the cloth absorbs any venom before it gets into the blood.

Even so Rufous are one of the most docile animals on the planet and their venom is considered to mild to have any real impact on humans any way. They have the intelligence and charisma of a mamba and the temper of a Ball Python.

I wrote an article on 5 under rated snake and these guys were one of the five for more info read it here, Rufous Beaked Snake Article

Like duh you mentioned my article in the OP, :O Anyway I stand by my statements and thanks for reading my blog.

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Originally Posted by jjspirko

Simple cloth gloves and long sleeves are the only protection needed from rear fanged snakes.

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Not if that rear fanged snake is a boomslang.

Well SPJ that is true, here is a VenomDoc thead that brings that up, http://www.kingsnake.com/toxinology/...8d1b5d37297fa0

Calling them rear fanged is a bit misleading.
They are very close to the front of the mouth (and quite large).
I'm gonna have to check out the link you posted.

SPJ, you are the one lumping Boomers in with the rest of the "rear fanged" snakes. To me they are not quite that easy to put into one group or the other. They do not have traditional fangs (hollow) but you are correct they are very big and as you said not all that far back.

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/libr...slangfangs.jpg

To me Boomers are an anomaly. They don't have hollow fangs but they are quite large and unlike most colubrids their "rear fangs" if we must call them that are folding due to their size the way vipers are.

http://www.seanthomas.net/oldsite/skull3.jpg

They inject very large amounts of venom and are highly toxic to humans. To me they just don't get included in the general world of rear fanged colubrids at least in the hobbiest world.

Perhaps when I said, "Well SPJ that is true" you did not realize I was agreeing with you that indeed Boomers are not something you can just handle by wearing gloves.

this is fascinating info :gj:
if the Boomslang's fangs are not hollow, how does it inject venom? Does it bathe the area and just get in the wounds that way?

Colubrids are so interesting :cool:

Here is a better shot of Boomer fangs (off Brian's site) as you can see these guys have fangs that you just can't lump in with Cateyed, Rufous, Diadems, etc.

http://www.venomdoc.com/images/boomslang_fangs.jpg

In their case rear is just barely behind the eye and the fangs are highly mobile and they can open their mouths about 180 degrees. They are not something I ever plan to work with outside of an institution.

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Originally Posted by fishmommy

this is fascinating info :gj:
if the Boomslang's fangs are not hollow, how does it inject venom? Does it bathe the area and just get in the wounds that way?

Colubrids are so interesting :cool:

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Missed your response. They have very deep groves that with the massive penetration allow venom to be very effectively delivered. They do sort of chew in venom like other colubrids have to they can just get in a lot more a lot faster. I don't believe they have any "pressure" to injection but I could be wrong about that. They are not a snake I have studied much in all honestly along with cobras and mambas they are one of the few snakes that honestly intimidate me a great deal. I don't like something that can hit me in the face from the ground if it is PO'd at me for some reason and kill me.

I'm with you, bud!

I prefer my hots in 2-D :D

QUOTE=MelissaFlipski;730387]This one is for anyone, but maybe Jack Spirko can help the most...? I read about it on his website blog in an entry called "Five Underrated African Snakes" (scroll down on http://www.housesnakes.net/blog/). It left me wanting more information. Sounds like an awesome snake to add to our collection... MAYBE.

Tell me ALL you know.

Thanks! :)[/QUOTE]I dont know much about them other then they are weird looking :O.A freind in California had several of them.

Jack, do you have any rufous beaked snakes? If not, do you plan to get a breeding pair? Just wondering. And can I responsibly own one with young children in the house? And thank YOU for your blog!

Joe, tell me more about your friends' rufous beaked snakes. Did you ever handle them? Etc., etc.

I agree they are an anomaly but unfortunately they do get grouped into the "rear-fanged" category because of the delivery system.
Just didn't want anyone to think these were the type of animal that is typically thought of when you hear the expression rear-ranged.
They may not have the traditional hollow hypodermic type fangs of elapids and vipers but they are very effective at envenomating.

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Originally Posted by MelissaFlipski

Jack, do you have any rufous beaked snakes? If not, do you plan to get a breeding pair? Just wondering. And can I responsibly own one with young children in the house? And thank YOU for your blog!

Joe, tell me more about your friends' rufous beaked snakes. Did you ever handle them? Etc., etc.

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I just observed him while he was cleaning the tubs they were in.In my opinion they were ugly so i did not have any interest in them so i paid little attention :P.He had way to many other cool snakes for me to help out with ;).

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Originally Posted by MelissaFlipski

Jack, do you have any rufous beaked snakes? If not, do you plan to get a breeding pair? Just wondering. And can I responsibly own one with young children in the house? And thank YOU for your blog!

Joe, tell me more about your friends' rufous beaked snakes. Did you ever handle them? Etc., etc.

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Mellisa,

I don't own any and while I had planned on getting a trio I have reset my goals and chose not to. I will probably buy a single one as soon as I get all my new caging built for my boas and my pythons.

I have even gotten rid of most of my House Snakes and placed them with Don Sonderberg at SMR. I am going 100% into education both as a writer and speaker with my Herp Activities. I have determined that if you want to breed snakes you have two choices.

Go small and highly specialized. It is very hard to work with a colony of 20 odd snakes of a given species and care for 20 other various species all with different needs. So if I wanted to stay breeding on any scale I would have to just work with my House Snakes.

The other options is go big and full time like Cathy Love, Bob Clark, etc. The people that produce a thousand or more animals a year and have it as full time employment can adapt to many species.

It just got to be too complicated and I want lots of variety in my collection. The only pairs I have now are a pair of Black Milks, a pair of Spotted Pythons, a pair of Skaapstekers and one pair of Cape House Snakes. I did the two Milks just so I always have one for shows. The Houses I do plan to breed the one pair. The others I would not have bought pairs if I got them today. I have just decided to keep the extras for now. In the future I may trade or sell the paired animals to do more variety.

Now um on your actual question, :) about kids and Rhamphiophis personally I don't have any problems with it at all. I would make sure the animal is secure and the children had 100% no access unsupervised to them but I would do the same with any snake even corns or balls.

I have handled many of these snakes and they are just docile creatures and no threat from a toxin stand point anyway. I would say a house cat poses more danger to a child then a Rhamphiophis.

Of course that is just my opinion and people must choose for themselves. Why not go to a big Herp show and handle a few to get a better understanding of them?

Link to a SA Forum. Set search to "rufous" and have some fun. There is at least one account of a guy getting a reaction after letting one chew on his arm a bit.

Worth checking out the threads for some decent pix and additional info.

http://www.sareptiles.co.za/forum/se...p?mode=results

I don't know much about them, but I can tell you that Celia at Exotics by Nature had one for about 5 years. It was a very interesting snake and I enjoyed looking at it and handling it when I was at there shop. You may want to shoot Celia an e-mail, as I am sure she could shed some light on this species for you. Or try a PM here, her screen name is wetceal.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Link to a SA Forum. Set search to "rufous" and have some fun. There is at least one account of a guy getting a reaction after letting one chew on his arm a bit.

Worth checking out the threads for some decent pix and additional info.

http://www.sareptiles.co.za/forum/se...p?mode=results

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I spend a lot of time on that forum and I have never found nor could I find any real account of a bit by any Rhamphiophis at all. Perhaps you are thinking of this thread

http://www.sareptiles.co.za/forum/vi...75a9f9a941549c

That has a picture of a pretty stiff reaction to a Skaapsteker bite (Psammophis). I mean any animal can bite but clearly the history, track record and toxicology reports on Rhamphiophis show they are basically harmless. Here is the Toxicology Report on Rufous Beak Snakes

http://www.toxinology.com/fusebox.cf...play&id=SN2181

Again I think keepers of many of this classification of snake romanticize the whole "warm snake" or "moderately venomous" thing. Plenty of people keep Tarantulas that can cause much more of a reaction then a Rufous or say a Diadem Snake. My problem with this is only that it makes people who really want to keep these animals worry far to much about doing so. Informed is great but over thinking things can just be a real hindrance.

To anyone really concerned with keep something in this class I have two questions.

Have you ever seen a really severe clawing by a house cat?

Have you ever seen a really nasty bite by a medium sized dog?

Having seen the results of both I have to say most (not all) of these rear fanged snakes pose far less risk to child or adult then the typical House Cat or Family Fido.

Here is the only creditable bite I can find

http://www.kingsnake.com/toxinology/...9842ef7bf1457f

I know the poster of it "BushViper" from the SA Forums. Skip may be you do too and this is the post you were thinking of since he posts so often at the SA Forum?

Anyway once again we see with this classification of snake the only real reactions come from blokes that decide to allow the animal to "chew for a while" just to see what happens......:rolleyes:

I would not let young children handle them but would not avoid keeping them in my home just because I have kids either. They do of course need to be in a locked room but again I feel if you have young children so should corns, balls, etc.

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Originally Posted by jjspirko

Here is the only creditable bite I can find

http://www.kingsnake.com/toxinology/...9842ef7bf1457f

I know the poster of it "BushViper" from the SA Forums. Skip may be you do too and this is the post you were thinking of since he posts so often at the SA Forum?

Anyway once again we see with this classification of snake the only real reactions come from blokes that decide to allow the animal to "chew for a while" just to see what happens......:rolleyes:

I would not let young children handle them but would not avoid keeping them in my home just because I have kids either. They do of course need to be in a locked room but again I feel if you have young children so should corns, balls, etc.

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It was - and my reference to it should have been clarified in the sense that his account involved purposely letting one chew on him for a bit - and the results weren't exactly earth-shattering or life threatening.

I have mexican hoggies and if you were to allow them to chew on your arm for a few minutes, you would get the same reaction.

The EBV over here in my neck of the woods had an adult rufous for awhile and I got to handle him - very docile, but very, very active and alert.

Ever seen what happens if you let a human chew on your arm for a few minutes?;)

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Ever seen what happens if you let a human chew on your arm for a few minutes?;)

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That is a point I have made many times as to why Hognoses are not venomous just because being chewed on will cause a reaction. Human saliva if injected is one of the nastiest substances you could ever put under skin and flesh. The bite of a human one the most infectious in the world with only monkeys and the carrion eating leopard being worse and not by much. However humans are not venomous - at least not in the conventional sense.

Wow. I am glad I started this interesting conversation. All I can say is thanks for all the information. And, yes, I'll add it to my list of "need to hold at a show."

Gracias!

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Originally Posted by jjspirko

Like duh you mentioned my article in the OP, :O Anyway I stand by my statements and thanks for reading my blog.

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I just read your article. It was very well written and I really enjoyed it.

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Originally Posted by bender29

I just read your article. It was very well written and I really enjoyed it.

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Thanks for the kind words Bender

The Rufous Beaked Snake should not be taken lightly with regards to the capabilities of their Venom. However, in regards to the nature and position of delivering the venom, they are almost the least of the Venomous Colubrids to worry about.

I admit that I will handle mine in almost every way I handle a common Corn Snake. With this, I will not expose my technique except to say that I wear thick cotton gloves, and a thick cotton long sleeve sweater... and maintain control of his head.

Also, after quite some time, I can perform the same with no protective clothing.

My only reasoning for doing this is the fact of a long history with this one snake, and the given abilities (Bi-focal sight and more) that he knows what's what.

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Originally Posted by mwd45

The Rufous Beaked Snake should not be taken lightly with regards to the capabilities of their Venom. However, in regards to the nature and position of delivering the venom, they are almost the least of the Venomous Colubrids to worry about.

I admit that I will handle mine in almost every way I handle a common Corn Snake. With this, I will not expose my technique except to say that I wear thick cotton gloves, and a thick cotton long sleeve sweater... and maintain control of his head.

Also, after quite some time, I can perform the same with no protective clothing.

My only reasoning for doing this is the fact of a long history with this one snake, and the given abilities (Bi-focal sight and more) that he knows what's what.

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That's interesting. How long have you had him? And was he a hatchling or older c/b or w/c when you got him? Tell us more! Also, any pics would be very welcome. Thanks!

MelissaFlipski,

Thanks for the questions. I presume that he is about 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 years old (I got him after he lost his reddish spots) and I have had him for about a year and a half. He is 4 1/2 feet and I presume he was w/c.

I will post more about him after, I get a few good pics and maybe a video and good write up for you.

Thanks

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Originally Posted by mwd45

MelissaFlipski,

Thanks for the questions. I presume that he is about 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 years old (I got him after he lost his reddish spots) and I have had him for about a year and a half. He is 4 1/2 feet and I presume he was w/c.

I will post more about him after, I get a few good pics and maybe a video and good write up for you.

Thanks

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I can't wait! Send me a PM if I miss your new thread!

The Rufous Beaked Snake

Basics about my snake(I'll keep it Chronological)

Monday (Feeding Day) - In the morning I usually wake up to a familiar face staring at me from his cage. He is sort of timid and when I walk up to him he normally goes back into hiding. At other times, he will hide his body and only expose his head and a small portion of his tail.

Some time between the morning and afternoon, I make it a point to take him out of his cage to let him explore. He is generally afraid of being too high in the air with no stability. I make it point to keep him close (with protective clothing) and allow him to wrap the last third of his body around my forearm. He generally hides between my body and arm and observes where we are going. I have found that his favorite thing to do is crawl on my bed and search about the room (he is also very fast so you have to keep watch on him constantly).

Later in the afternoon, once the Mice have Thawed, I start the feeding process (I have a few snakes). I normally save feeding my Rufous for last so he can relax and enjoy his meal (he does not like sudden movements and will run and hide). Feeding is done by placing a Thawed Mouse on a paper towel to keep substrate from getting in his mouth.

On feeding Live Mice... I assure that Live feedings are very successful with the "Rufous Beaked Snake. However, I advise against it because of the possible harm to the snake. For educational purposes, I will compare the feeding response of the Rufous Beaked Snake to that of a "Midget Body Builder Gone Wild". He is incredibly strong for his size and well... I have never seen a mouse be permanently constricted to less than half it's size (in diameter). I'll leave the rest to your imagination.

On feeding Dead Mice... I like this best because he comes out, inspects, wolfs it down and grabs a drink of water. And well, that's it! Just remember to get the Paper towel out of the cage.

Tuesday / Wednesday - I generally leave him alone to digest his prey. However, I do monitor what he does and is as follows... I still wake up to him staring at me or some part of the room through his cage. I leave him alone except to change his water (done every other day). He goes back and forth like always from each hide box and that's about it.

Thursday - Sunday - These are the days that I take him out and handle him the most (similar to Monday's). These are the times where I handle him and Inspect his cage. These days I inspect the cage for "Poo-Doo" and spot clean as necessary. I am always on the prowl for mites and stuff and use these days to check all of my snakes for any abnormalities.

I will post a scientific care sheet as I get the time... this is just a basic chronological week of the life of my Rufous.

Cool! Thanks. Does the rufous strike you as particularly intelligent? Has he ever attempted to bite?

Please post pictures! :please:

Here are some photos... you can find them in my gallery as well!! Thanks for your interest!!

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../snakes010.jpg

http://www.ball-pythons.net/gallery/.../snakes019.jpg

http://www.ball-pythons.net/gallery/.../snakes012.jpg

http://www.ball-pythons.net/gallery/.../snakes009.jpg

http://www.ball-pythons.net/gallery/.../snakes015.jpg

Gorgeous! Thanks! Do you wear gloves to handle him? Has he ever bitten you? I know I want to get a colubrid next - it's a big gaping whole in our collection. But I'm not sure I want to risk a bite.

For Safety Reasons you should at least wear Cotton Gloves and a Long Sleeve Cotton Shirt. I'll admit that I don't wear them. I have no valid reason for not wearing them and I probably should.

As for biting, he has yet to get nippy with me. I have yet to come across an actual report of a bite, Only hear-say of a guy who let a Rufous Beak bite and chew on him which caused swelling in the arm and hand, gave him a headache and went away in a week. I am not down-playing the validity of this story except to say that if it is true then I would invite that person to make an official statement / claim so that we can become more educated. I know of people all over who have Rufous Beaks and the only thing they have to say is "Docile".

As far as owning a Rufous Beaked Snake, you must be aware that each state has certain laws concerning keeping of Venomous Reptiles. Make sure you abide by them. The regulations differ by State. I do not know how they are Regulated in your State, so you have some research ahead of you.

My personal thoughts are that most Rear-Fanged Snakes should not be regulated.

I live in WV so regulations barely exist. Boomslangs would be, of course, the exception to not regulated rear-fanged snakes, eh?

Wow, talk about finding an old thread. I have had my rufous for awhile now, and he is a great little booger. Never attempted to bite or strike, and loves being handled.

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Originally Posted by Neal

Wow, talk about finding an old thread. I have had my rufous for awhile now, and he is a great little booger. Never attempted to bite or strike, and loves being handled.

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Can you post some pictures? Thanks!

I have a thread Can you spot him? I have a few pictures of him hiding, but I will take some more a bit later and post them. I can't seem to find my digital camera.