If you feed live...how?

I just watched Adam's "8 Ball Pythons - Feeding Day" video. First, let me say "Great work!". It was informative, and the heavy metal over snake feedings fed two of *my* favorite appetites! :)

Of course, there have been many discussions on this forum regarding live vs. F/T and the risks involved. Many people report injuries and many report none. The discussions can get heated but, hey, its an important topic.

I've gone back and forth with Adam on this subject, and I was thrilled to actually see the techniques behind his impressive "no-injury" record. The big difference between what I do, and what he does, is the use of tongs. That made me curious about the other members here...

I can't do the poll, as I used to feed my bp a live mouse, when I did I used a seperate container/enclosure, I had the mouse in it first then added my bp. But I just recently switched to frozen a month ago. And I defrost the mouse/rat & add it to his enclosure. I put it in the middle of his home, where there is no aspen.

:gj:

Swift stun on the mouse/rat feeder, let it wiggle senseless in front of the snake, and BAM! Works every time. I agree with Adam, you can't just SURPRISE, HERE'S A RAT with a snake... you have to get them awake and ready for something.

I open the tub slightly to see if they're awake and moving (usually they are since I feed them right after dark), and I move the feeder in slowly so the snake sees it coming. Usually the snake almost comes out of the cage cuz it knows what's coming though. Don't ya just love the "jack in the box" moments? lol

But yeah, never had a problem with this method. The feeder never leaves my hands/tongs until the snake has struck and is coiling around it.

I just throw the rat in with my big girl and she takes care of it. Under close supervision of course.

I also talked to Adam on holding the live rat with tongs. Tried it. And the rats go BAZERK!!! They flail around and squeal and reach around and chew on the tongs.

Wasn't a safe way for me to feed at all.

I just put the two together and all is well. I'm gonna try to switch her over to F/T like all the other snakes. But as of now she only takes live successfully.

i just drop a live mouse on the opposite side of the tank when its feeding time. it only takes seconds for her to smell the mouse and realize its feeding time. she'll get coiled up ready to strike and just wait for the mouse to get close enough. many times she actually lets the mouse smell her head before she strikes.

im guessing she gets excited (if thats possible for a snake) as she starts breathing heavily and her head starts shaking side to side like a puppy waiting for a treat:rofl:

i always observe feeding from start to finish to ensure everything goes well. ive had her for 4 or 5 months and ive only had to assist her once when an xl mouse tried biting her after she constricted. i had nothing handy so i just put my finger in the mouses mouth and let it chomp on me instead of the snake. they can bite pretty hard:O

i like my food fresh so i figure my snake does too. ill stick to live as she loves it:gj:

I also watched Adam's video and just fed my two live feeders with tongs. It worked great and I will continue to do it. I have one who tends to get scared by the rat running around the tub. The tongs took care of that problem and he nailed the rat hard.

Another way to avoid the "surprise its time to eat" is to just wait to feed until night time. I dont like to mess with my balls during the day and feeding is always done at night time when theyre awake.

Cn you link the feeding video please? I can't find it.

i pre scent just by leaving the rodents in boxes near there enclosures. that seem to get them up and ready. i usually just drop the mice in but i some times will stun the rats. either way i have never had any problems.

Always at night when the snakes are wide awake. If they are not out and about on feeding night I just wait for the next night they are out. Then I pre-scent until the snake is obviously excited about eating. Then I just drop the mouse or rat in at the opposite end the snake happens to be at. The food never even knows what hit them. I also don't handle my snakes unless they are wide awake and active.

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Originally Posted by ch312

im guessing she gets excited (if thats possible for a snake) as she starts breathing heavily and her head starts shaking side to side like a puppy waiting for a treat:rofl:

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LOL That's like the funniest thing. I KNOW they're going to strike when I see that head shake! I always thought of a dog when you're holding a ball and are about to throw it "Is he gonna throw the ball? Is he???? Throw the ball, throw the ball!!!! HE THREW THE BALL!!!!"

I just got my snake, so I've only fed him once. If I did anything wrong, please tell me!
I was a bit wary of picking him up at first, (the first time my friend tried, he almost got bit..) so I put the rat in his enclosure. He didn't seem too interested though, so I picked him up and put him in his feeding tub, dropped the rat in, and he ate with no problem. I didn't know people used tongs... I guess waving the rat in front of him with my bare hands was not too smart? haha..:O

I prescent by putting the rodent box from the pet store (which is sufficiently soaked with urine in the 15 minutes it takes to get home) on the vent hole on top of his tub. Within seconds, he starts poking around, and starts hunting. I usually offer the first mouse in about 10 minutes, and place it in the tub away from the snake. After that, I stand back, and enjoy the show :)

BTW, for the people who stun, how do you go about doing that?

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

Cn you link the feeding video please? I can't find it.

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doh! I should have done that in the initial post!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl9jqKCdAB8

For me, the favorite day of the week is Friday. I'm going to try tongs.

Ben

I voted pre-scent and then use tongs but as far as the tongs go, it depends on the snake. I don't use the tongs for every snake. I do keep all my rodents in the same room as my snakes but when its feeding day I put their dinner on top of the rack and wait a while before coming back and feeding.

I feed outside the enclosure due to its just easier for me to do. I can clean the tub while the snake is eating and once the snake is done eating I can just pop him on back into the tub. Because I feed in another tub, I don't use tongs. The tub is big enough that I can put the rodent on one side and the snake on the other and the snake can seek out the rodent rather than the rodent being right there up against the snake.

I only use tongs if the snake is living in a tank. Because of all the things in the tank, I just feel better when the mouse/rat is restrained. This is mostly for my corns and a few balls.

I throw the live rats into the enclosure, turn the light off, and come back after I clean the rats cages. That usually takes about 45 min. I then take out all of the uneaten rats and put them into their rat bins. The biggest rat that I feed to my balls is smalls. Hope this helps. :cool:

I used to pre-scent for 20-30 minutes, but that was when I was feeding in the enclosure. Since I switched to a feed box, Salzedo knows when it is rat-time. From the moment I drop it in the box with him, it has about 1-2 seconds to live. His feeding response is rapid, strong and lethal. No tongs needed either.

However, since watching the above video I'm wondering if maybe using tongs for a while with live, might be a good way to build up an even quicker feeding response so that I can switch to F/T. Hmmm...

Experiment time!

I think the important thing about the tongs (and they way Adam uses them) is they help ensure a strike to the forward part of the rodent. My experience is that strikes to the rear half of the rodent tend to leave its head free to bite.

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Originally Posted by ChrisBowsman

BTW, for the people who stun, how do you go about doing that?

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I hate explaining this cuz someone gets huffy, but here goes. You hold their tail, you swing your arm/wrist like a frisbie in the direction of some hard surface making sure their noggin takes the brunt of the impact, and they either freeze up or start to shake. Snake goes right for them w/o injury, cuz they're "stunned".

Some call it cruel, but I'd consider it more cruel to have it take chunks out of my beloved snake. It's gonna die either way, so I just make it easier and safer for the snake.

I then make the analogy - take a staple remover, clamp it down on your wrist, and twist until chunks of flesh comes off... that's what that "poor defenseless" rat could do to your snake... multiple times.

That's how I justify stunning.

I pre-scent and use tongs

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Originally Posted by bait4snake

I hate explaining this cuz someone gets huffy, but here goes. You hold their tail, you swing your arm/wrist like a frisbie in the direction of some hard surface making sure their noggin takes the brunt of the impact, and they either freeze up or start to shake. Snake goes right for them w/o injury, cuz they're "stunned".

Some call it cruel, but I'd consider it more cruel to have it take chunks out of my beloved snake. It's gonna die either way, so I just make it easier and safer for the snake.

I then make the analogy - take a staple remover, clamp it down on your wrist, and twist until chunks of flesh comes off... that's what that "poor defenseless" rat could do to your snake... multiple times.

That's how I justify stunning.

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I did stunned tonight. My olive has been taking oral meds and it was really starting to piss her off (not good w/ a 10' snake). Also, she quit taking F/T most likely due to the effect of the meds and/or stress.

So, I talked with the vet and he suggested feeding her very small dosed prey items each day instead. So, I decided to try stunned.

I went to my pet store, discussed it with them, and was lucky enough to get a demonstration on a mouse that was already on his way to a monitor's stomach.

It required much less force and was much less "messy" than I thought it would be. At home, I took my small rat, whacked it on the head with a small wrench, and then injected the anti-biotics into the scruff of its neck. Then, I dumped it in the tub and my snake at it right away. In my nervousness, I probably hit it a bit too hard because it barely moved afterwards and I wanted a bit more activity out of it so that my snake would be sure to constrict it first. In any case, it was 10x better than orally introducing the meds via feeding tube.

I agree that its not a particularly appealing procedure. However, I have to say that the most commonly cited risk of the prey waking up P.O.'d seems way overblown. It doesn't take much of a whack and the rodent is in a state that its never coming back from. Also, I did not get the impression that the prey was really suffering. In fact, I don't think it was really "there" so to speak. Ultimately, I felt that the stunned rodent actually goes through less suffering than the live-fed one.

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Originally Posted by Jenn

Always at night when the snakes are wide awake. If they are not out and about on feeding night I just wait for the next night they are out. Then I pre-scent until the snake is obviously excited about eating. Then I just drop the mouse or rat in at the opposite end the snake happens to be at. The food never even knows what hit them. I also don't handle my snakes unless they are wide awake and active.

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should i wait to feed at night? i fed mine this morning, well closer to noon, but i pre scented the room and he killed it as soon as it came near him. i also put the mouse in on the other end of the tank, he sniffed around then wandered over towards the snake. BAM!. cool to watch.

I've never bothered with a particular time of day. I think the important thing is to make sure the snake is ready.

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Originally Posted by ShawnT

I pre-scent and use tongs

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Where did you get your tongs? Have you had any trouble with the snake striking them?

I feed in the evening or morning when they're still active. The room is always pre-scented since most of my ASFRs are kept in the snake room because that room is adjusted to their native climate.

I'll toss an ASFR, rat, or mouse into bins with active snakes five or ten bins at a time. I sit in front of the bins to watch the process and remove any rodents that haven't been killed within a few minutes.

If I can't catch a snake active and get it to feed in two weeks, I give it special attention, changing prey items, using feed bins, vet trip, etc.

Most of them eat very well in their bins.

I dont know if im doing anything wrong, But anyway, I usually go to the petstore around dusk/early night, get the mouse, I put the petstore box with the mouse in it (rats soon, local does it as it goes up, Adult mouse-weanling rats) and leave it in for 10 minutes or so, The snake comes out lays on the box ext.

I turn the box on its side and open it, the mouse comes out, and in about 1 minute hes gone. Usually the snake focuses in on the box and right when its out, its constricted.

When i do switch to rats, I will do the tong method, As of right now, i can stand over the enclosure with a pair of feeding tons (not a rodent kind, but work) and make sure all goes well.

I dont get the massive feeding response adam does, but hes never refused a live, maybe its my snake, or If im missing out on something as far as methods go, or doing something wrong tell me, But it seems to work ATM with 1 snake just on mice.

I'm glad stunning worked so well for you!!!

After a few hundred times you start to get a better idea on how hard to whack them to get the desired "movement". Yes, if you hit them too hard, they will never come back from it. Sometimes when that happens, and it remains still and my snake doesn't take it, I'll have to offer it to another snake that I KNOW has a monsterous feeding response because it won't wake up or start moving again.

Also, regarding the rat/mouse waking up PO'ed... I never let it leave my hands/tongs until the snake has struck. If I see it waking up, which RARELY happens, I'll pull it away and give it another knock.

Why is whacking even necessary? :confused:

Not once have any of mine been injured feeding un-stunned, live animals. I've never found it necessary to whack my prey.

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Originally Posted by Crazydude

I dont get the massive feeding response adam does, but hes never refused a live, maybe its my snake, or If im missing out on something as far as methods go, or doing something wrong tell me, But it seems to work ATM with 1 snake just on mice.

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There is a lot to be said for conditioning these animals to adapt to your husbandry routine.

I always just drop rodents in the snakes' tubs, live and not "stunned." I slide open the tub, gently place the rodent on the floor of the tub, and the snakes are usually waiting patiently in their hides for the rodent to unknowingly stroll into their strike range. I've not had one injury using this method - my snakes are used to it and have adjusted to this routine.

I think that if I were to suddenly switch to offering rodents off of tongs like Adam does in his video, a lot of my snakes wouldn't eat right away - it's "out of routine" and not what they are expecting to happen. Basically, the moral of the story is that you do what works safely and effectively for you and your snakes.

From a large breeder's perspective, I think that the tong method is right on. You don't have a live rodent running around, tearing up paper, or defecating in the corners of the tubs before the snake eats it. I usually try to clean the day after feeding just because the live rodents tend to make a mess in some of the tubs...its amazing what they can leave in the 60-90 seconds before they are eaten.

Pre-scent the room - open tub - drop feeder - close tub – done - moving on to the next snake. :D

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Pre-scent the room - open tub - drop feeder - close tub – done - moving on to the next snake. :D

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Ditto

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

Ditto

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Double ditto. No stunning required.. They've been on this planet longer than we have, and have survived and thrived through it all. Humans don't normally hover around burrows dangling stunned rodents.

Raul and Becky are right on.

Unfortunately, the anti-live people out there have circulated those same 10 or so pictures of mauled pythons and boas, almost like propaghanda to further an agenda...if feeding live in this manner is as dangerous as they say, where are all the NEW pictures that should be surfacing every other week? ;) And why isn't my whole collection dead?

Stunning is just unnecessary...be nice to your rodents...feed, clean, and treat them well...and they'll be nice to your snakes.

I'll be feeding about 45 Ball Pythons as well as a Sumatran Short Tail Python tonight, and I will report back how many got maimed, ok? I've never had a snake get bitten to where it left a mark, or even to the extent that the snake bled. It just doesn't happen if the feeding routine is done properly.

Turn off the lights, pre-scent for a good half hour to full hour, put flashlight in your mouth, pick up rodent, open snake tub, place into tub as gently as possibly without getting face or hands bitten off by snake, close tub quickly without sloshing water everywhere, go on to next tub..

Even if the mouse can nip the snake, the snake knows this and will coil up even tighter. The mouse has other things to worry about, such as getting blood flow back to its brain..

Yea, I think with BP's and mice and small rats the risk of injury is fairly low provided that the right conditions exist.

I have two snakes that take much larger prey and I think the risk is much higher then.

I wouldn't consider myself a pro-stunning advocate by any means. After trying it a few times I have become frusterated by the unpredictability of the rat's behavior after being hit.

My female normal was eating F/T mice, she stopped eating. I got my first Pastel (Thanks Tim @ Ballroom Pythons) which was eating live rats so I figured that I would try live with my female since I was going to continue with the feeding that Tim was doing with my pastel.

Both are eating live rats, usually they are in their hides...I empty the cage of all decore give my snake a rub to wake them up a bit and dangle the rats in the cage by the tail for a few seconds and then drop them in at the opposite end...BOOM, within a minute, no more rats and no problems. AWSOME feeding responses from both snakes now!!

Yea, I would say that decor has a big impact on how well the feed goes. Most of the feeds that haven't gone well for me involved the snake taking difficult strikes because of decor (around corners, etc).

(of course this isn't so much of an issue with tongs)

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Yea, I would say that decor has a big impact on how well the feed goes. Most of the feeds that haven't gone well for me involved the snake taking difficult strikes because of decor (around corners, etc).

(of course this isn't so much of an issue with tongs)

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I just figure that the fewer the hiding places available for the rat the better and makes it easier for the snakes to get to their dinner...also gives me faster access if there is a problem without having to fumble around everything to give a good sqeeze :puke2: to a rat in case of a bad strike...tho that has not happened yet, they always get them by the head....:O

I just open the tub and drop the rodents in.
With my crew of bp's they don't need any pre scent. If they are hungry, which is always, they seem to know soon as I walk in the room with the box of rodents and are almost trying to come out of the tubs waiting for me to drop them in.
Seems they know every Friday at around 2pm when I open their tubs it's feeding day.

My BP has always given me fits when it comes to feeding. When I first got him 15 yrs ago, he would take f/t mice fine. Few years later, he moved to pre-killed rats or live rats. All of which were offered to him once a month in a separate container, a blue suitcase-style cat carrier I picked up somewhere.

Then sometime in 2000-2001, he decided not to eat...anything...and remained this way for nearly 8 months. I tried almost everything to get him back on feeding; mice, rats gerbils, baby chicks, live and f/t. Nothing. Then one day, I gave him a live hamster. It didn't even hit the bottom of the cage. So until this past summer, he had refused all except live light-colored hamsters.

He finally took a live rat several months ago and started pounding them again for a few more feedings, but for 2 months now, he's refused to eat. I usually just put him in his crate, and he'll grab the rat almost as soon as I put it in there. But since he's started fasting again, I've tried pre-killed and jiggled it with tongs, with no luck. I've brought the rat home, put it into the crate for a while, then take it out and replace it with the snake, letting it get used to the scent...and then put the rat back in. No luck. Not sure what to do to get him eating again.

We feed live only. We put the rat box on top of her cage and and let her smell him for a bit. Then we just put her in a box and dump the rat in with her. If she wants to eat she will. If not, we take the rat out and back to the store for a refund.

The new baby has ate really good so far. This last time he headbutted the rat and then attacked it. It was awesome!

sometimes if my snakes need a little enticing, i'll hold it with by the tail close to their face, and that usually does the trick. :gj: