Need to start accumulating information

When I was talking to my mother last night, she said she wanted me to go to the petstore for some dog food....and get a price on their bearded dragons. If they had any and it was a decent price, she wanted one. I told her not to get one from the petstore and to wait till I go to the next reptile show (in March). She agreed but now I'm thinking about it.

My mom has a habit of getting an animal, getting tired of it, and finding a new home for it. We had bearded dragons in the past but it was mostly my stepfather and I who cared for them. My mom likes them but I'm not sure how well she'd really take care of it. When I had a little beardie at her house (she allowed me to keep it there since my grandmother hated reptiles) and she put crushed walnut shells as its substrate. It was only a juvie and got impacted and after many vet visits and eventually surgery, he had to be put down because he was too weak to live.

So now I'm worried that she's either going to give the beardie bad living conditions or she's going to get tired of it and give it away.

If she gets one and eventually does care for it badly or wants to get rid of it, I will most likely take it in, seeing as I can't stand to see an animal suffer because of my mother. So I want to start getting as much information as I can about them. So a few questions for starters.

Housing:

What size tank is appropriate for a baby, juvie, and adult bearded dragon? What substrate is appropriate for each life stage? Water sources? (I've heard some beardies won't drink from standing water, it has to be moving.) Tank decor? What would a bearded dragon need as a baby, juvie, and adult to provide basking areas, shaded areas, ect.

Temps/Humidity:

I can find needed temps on a caresheet. What humidity is required for these lizards? Do they require misting? What humidity level is too low? What temp is too low? Too high?

Feeding:

What insects do they normally chow on other than mealworms and crickets. I've heard you need to chop the heads on mealworms because the dragons don't chew the worm that well and the heads could still bite through their stomach. How many insects does a baby, juvie, and adult go through in a day? What other kinds of food should they be eating. How often should you dust insects?

Lighting:

I've read that they require UVB lighting as well as a basking light. What should the light cycle be like?

First off, I highly recommend visiting www.beardeddragon.org, an extremely helpful beardie community!!

Housing: Aquariums and heat lamps work best for beardies, since they don't need much in the way of humidity and they need pretty high temperatures & a basking spot. Start with a 20 long for a baby or juvie, and as he grows bigger, you will want a minimum of a 40g breeder for an adult, or larger depending on the animal. As for when to do the switch? I believe you'll be able to tell - most juvie beardies are fairly active and he will begin to look cramped as he is jumping around his viv.

Humidity: I wouldn't worry too much about it. The only thing is, they can be prone to dehydration because most beardies won't drink out of a water dish regularly (you can OCCASIONALLY catch them at it). Every couple days you want to either mist the beardie's head a lot so he licks the water off his mouth, or use a pipet or eyedropper to drip it onto his mouth. You can also give them baths semi-regularly, which helps a lot with this. (It's debated how often beardies should be given baths, but I would say once a week is plenty... maybe even once every two weeks if you are hydrating him via the first two methods often.)

Feeding: Don't use mealworms except as an OCCASIONAL treat. They are very unhealthy and lizards can't digest them well. Crickets and superworms are fine as long as they are sized appropriately (you will find more about sizing insects on caresheets). Dust insects with calcium powder EVERY TIME you feed them - it's not hard, just stick the bugs in a plastic bag, sprinkle some dust, and shake'n'bake. You also will want to dust with a vitamin supplement once a week. The best ones to use are Rep-Cal calcium powder and Herptivite - I am not just spouting brand names here - these are hailed as the best all over the beardie keeping world.

Adult beardies will eat around 25 insects a day, separated into two feedings. Juvies will eat more than this. Some people say they feed their juvies 100 crickets in one feeding; however, I found that 30 crickets a day was appropriate. You can't "feed until full" because beardies are opportunistic feeders and will eat constantly if you let them. Know that you are looking at buying in bulk in the future and caring for a tubful of bugs.

A great alternative to crickets are roaches, specifically Blaptica dubia roaches. They don't climb, don't chirp, don't smell, don't fly, and are just as healthy as crickets. (Again, dust everything!)

Beardies are omnivores and need veggies offered daily: http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtrem...Nutrition.html This is a fantastic resource for veggie nutrition facts for beardies. Juvies will only munch a little at their veggies, while adults eat about 50% of their diet in veggies.

Lighting: 12/12 light cycle. Use a reliable UV-emitting strip bulb and an appropriate wattage incandescent heat bulb. "Appropriate wattage" means whatever necessary to get your temps right... usually around 100W worked for me. You should also supplement with a UTH that is on 24/7... this will help keep temps up at night (you usually won't need a night bulb).

Whew... well hope that helped!! :banana:

Housing for a baby Bearded Dragon should be around a ten gallon. In a larger tank they can get lost, forgetting where their basking spots, etc are. For a juvenile housing size should probably be the same as an adults, minimum 40 gallon breeder (36"x18"x16").

As far as humidity, it's important that it isn't too high. Levels of around 30% are fine. I do recommend misting your Bearded Dragon twice to three times weekly, it helps with hydration. Also, soaking once a week will also be great. It's true that most Bearded Dragon won't drink from standing water, which is where the misting/soakings help. I find when you are misting, if you take a syringe and drip it on their mouth, it will teach them to drink from that. That way you can better manage keeping them hydrated. You can add a water dish though, it never hurts. Some of them will naturally soak/drink from them, you never know :).

I've never heard of mealwoms chewing through their stomachs. I have heard of them being not quiet ideal as far as what's best for your Beardie though. Their meat to carapace ratio is horrible, sometimes causing impactions in the animals.

You should provide Bearded Dragons with a daily salad. The best greens are Collard, Turnip and Mustard Greens. You can include foods like Squash and Dandelion Greens on occasion too.

Here is an awesome nutrition chart for Bearded Dragons. http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtrem...Nutrition.html

As far as insects, I feed my Beardie Lobster roaches no wider than the width between his eyes. Otherwise impaction problems can occur. Feed them their salad and insects daily.

Baby Beardies should get calcium supplement daily and vitamin supplement 4-5 times a week. As they age, less supplement is required. Adults require calcium 4-5 times a week and multi-vitamins 2-3 times a week. I use the multi-vitamin "Dragon Dust" and the calcium supplement "Rep-cal" it is w/D3 and phosphorus free.

Light cycles should be 12/12. A Reptile Glo 8.0 or Repti-sun 10.0. Basking spot should be 95-105, the other end of the tank 75-85. Dragons have to have a basking spot at least at around 95 or higher, they require temperatures of 95 give or take to digest their food.

Thanks a bunch! Caring for bugs isn't a problem for me. I've had to deal with chirping crickets before. But the roach idea sounds interesting. Would they be a replacement for the crickets or can I alternate? Where would I find roaches. If I did end up with a bearded dragon, I would probably breed my own insects seeing as they are expensive to buy. Seeing as I also have rats and sugar gliders that would probably enjoy crickets or other insects, it would make more sense to just breed them rather than paying 11c per cricket. And going through 25-30 a day per beardie, thats a lot of money in insects. So where could I get info on these roaches you speak of? :D

A question on substrate. I refuse to put any beardie adult or juvie on crushed walnut shell substrate. I've used the cage carpet before and its just a pain to clean. What others would you suggest. I'm worried about impaction so I would like to stay away from anything that could lead to that.

On heat elements and lights. Would using an infared bulb for the heating element be ok? That way I could keep it on all the time and use the UV light only during the day. I use the infared bulbs on all my tanked reptiles and it keeps temps in the correct zone. Would beardies require heating from below or are the bulbs ok to use?

Almost forgot... Decor and substrate.

Some people swear by newspaper and paper towels. A lot of people say sand causes impaction. Personally, I cannot stand using newspaper/paper towels as substrate for beardies because they poop every day and it's a pain to clean it out. Plus, a lot of times the poop is runny and leaks through to the aquarium bottom, stinking up everything and making a royal mess.

Here's my solution. I used a certain type of sand called Reptilite, which has round sand grains that supposedly won't harm a beardie's organs if ingested. This sucks up the liquids from the poops so it doesn't smell as much, and you can spot-clean it. Secondly, I bought an extra 10g ($12 at Petco) and fed him outside the enclosure. Feeding outside the enclosure is useless for snakes, but makes more sense for beardies. If you feed in their enclosure, they WILL associate your hand reaching in with dinnertime, making it frustrating to try and get them out. (Although getting bitten is usually pretty painless!) Plus, you won't have a chance for them to ingest substrate and get impacted.

As for decor? They don't need a hide box except maybe during brumation if you are wintering your animal. Just plenty of branches to play on, and ground space too.

Edit: I have heard a lot of people that have had success with playsand you can get at a hardware store - it's much cheaper than specialty reptile sand. You just need to make sure to clean it properly first.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

So where could I get info on these roaches you speak of?

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The roaches need to be ordered online. Google it and you'll find lots of online roach vendors out there that will deliver to your door. They are a replacement for crickets.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

A question on substrate. I refuse to put any beardie adult or juvie on crushed walnut shell substrate. I've used the cage carpet before and its just a pain to clean. What others would you suggest. I'm worried about impaction so I would like to stay away from anything that could lead to that.

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Never use walnut shells for anything; they're just terrible bedding for almost any animal. See above post for my personal opinion on bedding. Also, never use Excavator or whatever it's called (new product on the market) - it dries into an impossible-to-clean rocky surface...

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

On heat elements and lights. Would using an infared bulb for the heating element be ok? That way I could keep it on all the time and use the UV light only during the day. I use the infared bulbs on all my tanked reptiles and it keeps temps in the correct zone. Would beardies require heating from below or are the bulbs ok to use?

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You don't want to have your basking light on all the time. You want your beardie to have a sense of night and day, both in temperatures and in lighting. This way he will know when it's night time and will get into a healthy sleeping/waking routine. If you had a constant basking heat all the time, he may wake up more easily from sounds and lights if you are doing things in the same room.

Housing:

A baby 6-10" can be housed in a 20L (30"x12x12), as they get older a 40B(36x18x16) is better, as an adult you want at least 6sq. feet of floor space, In my opinion, you want a 4x2x2 or bigger for most dragons, smaller, or less active dragons can live in a 40B or 3x2x2, but with dragons, as you probably know, bigger is better. Just dont stress out a baby, I went 40B for a 9" baby, to now tomarrow she gets a 5x2x2 custom tank (shes 16 months, 18").

Substrate:
Tile (ceramic or slate, that is textured, and perfurably sealed)
Reptile carpet
Paper towels
Newspaper (unprinted better)
Non-adhesive shelf liner

An adult can live on playsand that is washed and sifted.

Avoid calcium sands, vitamin sands, colored sands, walnut shell, gravel, corn on the cob, wood chips ext.

Non particle are best IMO, as sand isnt great to dig in, is messy and a breeding ground for bacteria. I love Tile, and use paper towels as a quarenteen substrate when my dragon is sick.

Water:
Most dont drink from standing water thats correct, For a baby, try to get them used to baths, Bath them at least 2x a week (some bath daily), and on non bath days, mist their head or use a needle-less seringe/dropper to give water, dont mist the enclosure, just them, so taking them out may be needed. I dont use a water bowl.

Decor:

For babies, the less complicated the better, as they get older, you can get more elaborate, In my dragons new tank there is a basking rock, driftwood, tile, a salad bowl and a cave, and i am going to get a few fake plants, but thats an adult,

as a baby i had paper towels, a rock, a food bowl, and thats really it.

Basking/Shaded areas:

They need at least 1 good basking area, temp 100-110, dont go over 115, and under 95 (in farenheight). you want uvb hitting them when basking, so a long strip is good, or a MVB (certain bulbs are good, ill list below).

Babies caves are not recomended, as they hide alot, as they get older, caves can be given, expecially for brumation if they do. They are good if the dragon doesnt constantly go in there. Cool side should be 75-83ish.


Temps/Humidity:

Temps, 95-115, i perfer 105 or so, but differnet dragons like different temps.

Whats important about this is a good thermomiter, a digital with a probe needs to be left on the basking spot for 45 minutes to get a good reading, A tempgun is even better.

Humidity is really not as crutial with beardies as with some snakes, you dont want it wet, or humid as in feeling it, but not super dry. To low their inner ear can dry out, to high there is a risk of a URI. 30-50 is a good range. But i dont really measure as i do with my ball, its normally fine unless you are in a extreme weather area.

Feeding:

Babies/juvies:

Normally you should feed 2-3x a day as much as they will eat in 10-15 minutes, normally thats between 30-100 crickets PER DAY. Its alot of food, so i ordered online.

AVOID mealworms, they have no nutritional value that is benifitial to beardies, they have hard shells and are a impaction risk. But the head thing is a myth, they cant.

Dusting with calcium 4-5x a week and vitamins 1-2x a week, I use rep-cal. The type of calcium depends on the lighting, a florecent get the pink label calcium, a MVB the green label is better. and then for vitamins herperative (or similar) blue label.

They also should get a daily salad, you can dust this instead if they eat it, This should consist of a mix of things, like dark leafy greens.

Im not sure on this forums link policy, but go to beautifuldragons.com, and click on nutrition, theres a huge list of everything you can and cant think of, and if its good or not.

Adult:

Daily salad,

also 30-50 live feeders a week, spread out in any way,

Dust calcium 2-3x a week, vitamins 1-2x a week.

You can feed these true superworms once the dragon is over 15-16", these are healthier then mealworms but similar, avoid giant mealworms, and these are NOT refridgerated.

Insects:

there are a range of things, here are a few things that are good as staples:

Crickets
Roaches (feeder roaches)
Silkworms
Hornworms
Butterworms
Pheonix worms

All can be bought online, i can give you links to good places if you need.

Adults can also eat superworms.

For treats, waxworms can be given.

Lighting:

They need UVB to survive, They are sun loving animals, probably more then almost any other reptile, they are slowly parilized legs up without it, and their bones turn soft. (MBD).

Anyway, the problem is there are tons of bulbs that are dangerous because the field is unregulated. There are two good types of UVB bulbs, Florecent TUBES and Mercury vapor bulbs.

Florecent tubes:

Great for smaller enclosures, a few safe models, not very strong output so they generally require to be close to the animal (6-10 inches). They need to be replaced every 6 months.

Good ones are the (in order strongest to weakest):
Repti-sun 10.0 by zoo-med
Repti-sun 5.0 by zoo-med
Repti-glo 8.0 by exo-terra

The rest are not good, and either too weak, or dangerous.

Mecury vapor bulbs (MVB's)
These are much stronger, depending on bulb, range from the the strenght of florecents, to the stength of the sun, these usually require at least 12" away from the animal, sometimes more, And they produce heat too, Sometimes they are dim and have a yellowish tint, so its ideal to have a NON-uvb florecent along side it.

In order from best to worst:
Megaray (reptileuv.com)
T-rex active uv heat (same as megaray, just distributed to petstores by T-rex)
Exo-Terra Solar Glow (not sunglow, a new bulb, seems good)
Powersun (same strength as about the repti-sun 10.0, seems to blow out easy).

Anyway, you can find the distances from the companies.

Bulbs to avoid:

Repti-glo 10.0
ALL COMPACT UVB BULBS
ALL ESU or Zilla bulbs

more info on lighting uvguide.co.uk

hope that helps some, any other questions ask, there are other forums with great caresheets, a simple google search will show them.

I order my roaches from http://aaronpauling.com/ :D

Sorry for all the questions but hey, if I find out all the information I need, I might just end up picking up a beardie for myself. I miss having them.

If using a UTH, will it need to be on a thermostat. If so, what temperature should the UTH be at at all times? What temperatures are needed at night?

Is it easy to breed the roaches. I have had success with mealworms because I bred them for my sugar gliders. Are the roaches very hard to breed and can they be used in place of crickets?

Thanks for all the information! I might have to start convincing my fiance to let me get one now. If we shove the dining room table over a bit, we'll have enough room for a 40g tank. :)

I used a Zoo-med UTH as supplemental heating ONLY, and I did not use a thermostat for it. This was simply to keep temperatures up at night and because I had a layer of sand at the bottom, it did not heat the bottom up to the point that it would harm my dragon.

I've heard breeding roaches is not hard, but I don't know much about it, so maybe someone else can answer.

Roaches breed like, well, roaches. They are extremely easy to breed and yes they can replace Crickets. Oh and a giant perk! They don't smell nearly as bad as crickets do. As a matter of fact, I have a huge colony and they don't really have an odor at all.

As for the UTH, I use basking bulbs. They are safer and you are less likely to get a burn. Bearded Dragons feel heat from above not below. So UTH aren't recommended.

I would not mind using a UTH but I would like to know how safe they are to use on carpet and wood. What if I'm not using sand, is the UTH still safe to use even if there is not a layer of sand to protect the dragon's belly?

I will look at the feeder roaches. They are actually not that expensive. In comparison to crickets, how many would you give to a dragon per feeding session. I think you said 25-30 insects per adult per feeding and 30-100 per baby/juvie per feeding as far as crickets goes. Does this also apply for the roaches?

I'm really sorry for all the questions. I just want to make sure I have everything right. My last beardie died because I was stupid enough to let my mother care for him and I don't ever want to let that happen again.

Hey Michelle, you're not from New England, are you? Because when I had to give up my beardie I adopted him out to a woman named Michelle who was a huge beardie lover. Although, I can't recall her ever having snakes. Just beardies and a few other lizards.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

In comparison to crickets, how many would you give to a dragon per feeding session. I think you said 25-30 insects per adult per feeding and 30-100 per baby/juvie per feeding as far as crickets goes. Does this also apply for the roaches?

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It depends on the size of the roaches... you need to judge based on how large your roaches are vs. crickets and make a decision that way. For example, at one point I tried using silkworms, which for some reason arrived as mediums instead of larges... so I had to feed many more insects than I normally would have with crickets.

Oh ok. gotcha!

Thank you everyone who is giving me such great information! :D

I have read on several care sheets/forum postings that UTH are not recommended due to the risk of your Bearded Dragon getting burnt. IMO, I don't think they are as safe as spotlights. Bearded Dragons tell temperatures with their backs, not their bellies.

I feed my Bearded Dragon appropriately sized roaches until he stops eating them and that is usually 5-6 roaches a day.

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Originally Posted by icygirl

Hey Michelle, you're not from New England, are you? Because when I had to give up my beardie I adopted him out to a woman named Michelle who was a huge beardie lover. Although, I can't recall her ever having snakes. Just beardies and a few other lizards.

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Nope, I'm from Tennessee with lots and lots of snakes and only one Beardie. :D

Just realized me Michelle and Icy all posted at the same time, im just slow.

Roaches-crickets depends on size, If you feed the same size roach as you would cricket then its the same amount, generally for a baby you cant overfeed them, so it will show you,

Dont feed anything larger then the space between your dragons eyes, and you are good.

As for adult, again, if the same size, then it should be the same.

But where it gets confusing, is soft bodied worms, like 1 hornworm is the equivilant to 20 or so crickets saposedly, all i know is 1-2 hornworms a day that were 6-9g filled my dragon up each day when she was 9 months old.

Anyway, it depends on size, a baby will tell you, you have to sort of do some guess work with an adult, once hes a good weight, then you try to keep him there, if he is loosing weight let him eat more, gaining, cut back a little, but thats with insects, they need a fresh salad daily.

Anyway, I would avoid a UTH, without a thermostat most get 115*F+ as you probably know, they sense heat from above using their "third eye" which is a light/heat sensing organ, anyway, they adjust their location/behavior depending on what they get from that, so a heat pad/rock can easily overheat and burn them without knowing it. And they could dig or push the sand away too. (also not to overdo it, but only use sand with an adult, they dont naturally live on sand in the wild, so its really not a hugely great choice IMO).

Also they thrive in bright white light, so heat in the form of a bright white lightbulb is best.

You only need use extra heat for the night if temps drop below 65*F at night, if you need to, a Ceramic heat emitter is better, they can see most colored light, so red/purple/black are not great either.

OT, Icy, nice to see another from MA. Reptiles seem to be rare around here, so another owner is always cool.

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Originally Posted by Michelle.C

I have read on several care sheets/forum postings that UTH are not recommended due to the risk of your Bearded Dragon getting burnt. IMO, I don't think they are as safe as spotlights. Bearded Dragons tell temperatures with their backs, not their bellies.

I feed my Bearded Dragon appropriately sized roaches until he stops eating them and that is usually 5-6 roaches a day.

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Agreed - if you don't have a protective layer of sand on the bottom, and your temps dip down too low at night - think below 69 or 70 - then you may want to get a lower-wattage night time bulb. **by nighttime bulb I mean infrared or red so they can't see it.

Not to contradict you, or correct, Just like to say ive had problems with a Infared bulb, it did keep my dragon up, and so did a purple/black moonlight bulb, so they can see decent.

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Originally Posted by Crazydude

OT, Icy, nice to see another from MA. Reptiles seem to be rare around here, so another owner is always cool.

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Hey there :) You from the west or the east of MA?

I said safer, not perfect. :rolleyes: Anything left unmonitored can cause harm. I've heard of far more burns caused by undertank heaters than problems caused by spotlights. :)

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Originally Posted by Crazydude

Not to contradict you, or correct, Just like to say ive had problems with a Infared bulb, it did keep my dragon up, and so did a purple/black moonlight bulb, so they can see decent.

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Yup, I hear you there. I actually never used one of those bulbs, I had just read about it online :weirdface so shame on me for saying something I hadn't tried. :oops:

Of course, it's never good to use cut-and-paste husbandry. In other words, observe your dragon and if something really isn't working for it, change it! A friend of mine had a particular dragon with behavioral problems that would hurt himself if given any sort of climbing branches. He has to live in a relatively bare and small enclosure because of this. This is NOT the norm but just goes to show that every dragon is a little different.

Michelle, if that was directed at me, sorry didnt see that,

I guess i just think lightbulbs are a better choice due to the third eye, seems like you have a similar view?

Anyway, i agree.

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Of course, it's never good to use cut-and-paste husbandry

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I agree, black and white is not a great way, Most things i do are adjusted to fit my dragons needs, like mines prone to parasites, so for most of its life, its in a bare easy to clean enclosure, its in its 2 month free mark thats why it gets its new tank.

Didnt mean to sound like a jerk in any post. just laying out what ive learned.

Anyway, Icy, Im kind of SE, between Boston and Providence (Foxboro)

I would talk to Raul. (WestCoastJungle) He's the man when it comes to Beardies!

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Originally Posted by Crazydude

Anyway, Icy, Im kind of SE, between Boston and Providence (Foxboro)

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No way!! I actually live one town over from you (I'm away at school now but that's where my home is).

Sorry Jay, I'll stop hijacking your post now... :redface:

Anyways. I think your mom should know that while beardies are sometimes toted as great beginner lizards, they really require a LOT of time, effort, space, and bug-keeping... On the other hand they are the funniest and most loveable characters I have yet experienced in the reptile world! :carrot:

Oh yea, I know what characters they can be. We had a large female when I was younger (the reason I'm so full of questions is because all I ever did was handle her.) we would let her run around the house(supervised of course) and she would be such a goof. She also liked falling asleep on you.

So if they can see all colored light, a CHE would be my best bet when it comes to heating at night? It normally stays around 72-76 in the house. Very rarely it dips below 70, never below 68, and thats only if my fiance turns off the heat. Would I require a CHE or other heating element at night if temperatures stay in these ranges?

and hijack my post all you want. Its nice to find fellow herpers near where you live. :)

Er... Beardies will NOT keep eating and eating, they will stop when full. Its just some people dont want to feed them that much because of how much bugs cost. Mealworms are a huge no no, and the whole eating through your beardies tummy is a lie, not that you should feed them that anyways.

No UTH's for beardies, they just need a light basking spot set at 110 degrees. Lower than 100 can cause regurgs of the crickets. You will also need uvb.

If 68 is the lowest you dont have a problem, you wont even need a CHE.

I dont use anything, i found out about the blue light when i first got her, the petstore said it is good to use, but she watched it for awhile each night, and kept looking up.

And then when on vacation up north it was colder, and i used a Infared because i figured they cant see it right? anyway, same thing happened. Watched it for awhile, and tried to bask all through the night.

Now that I think about it, we didn't use anything at night for our beardies either. They had the UV light that was a long strip of light and a basking light. We had ours on play sand and never had any impaction issues.

Is play sand ok for adults? I would like a natural looking enclosure if I get a beardie.

Anyone care to post pictures of their beardies' setup? I love looking at enclosures and it might give me an idea of a good set up. I remember ours rather easily. We had them on play sand. There was a flat rock formation on one end, used for basking and wood branches for climbing and a food dish. We misted them once a day, not the enclosure, just them.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Er... Beardies will NOT keep eating and eating, they will stop when full. Its just some people dont want to feed them that much because of how much bugs cost.

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I never, ever limited my beardie's food because I thought bugs were too expensive. I fed him what I believed to be appropriate through extensive research and reading. I have seen several different opinions on the issue of how much to feed beardies, so I do not want to say that you are correct or that I am. But that is not generally the reason that some people do not feed as much as others, except maybe in inexperienced keepers.

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Originally Posted by icygirl

I never, ever limited my beardie's food because I thought bugs were too expensive. I fed him what I believed to be appropriate through extensive research and reading. I have seen several different opinions on the issue of how much to feed beardies, so I do not want to say that you are correct or that I am. But that is not generally the reason that some people do not feed as much as others, except maybe in inexperienced keepers.

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The best thing to do is let your beardie eat as much as it can in a 15 minute time period three times aday.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

Now that I think about it, we didn't use anything at night for our beardies either. They had the UV light that was a long strip of light and a basking light. We had ours on play sand and never had any impaction issues.

Is play sand ok for adults? I would like a natural looking enclosure if I get a beardie.

Anyone care to post pictures of their beardies' setup? I love looking at enclosures and it might give me an idea of a good set up. I remember ours rather easily. We had them on play sand. There was a flat rock formation on one end, used for basking and wood branches for climbing and a food dish. We misted them once a day, not the enclosure, just them.

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Play sand is fine for adults. Again, to eliminate impaction risk, feed outside of his normal enclosure. This will also get him used to being handled and less averse to being taken out of his tank.

I don't have a recent pic of my enclosure, but your setup idea sounds like the right one. :gj: Just don't use a heat rock, but I'm sure you know that by now :)

I disagree with playsand, it is a playground substrate for bacteria spreading from urates and poop.

Whoops, guess I lied... I found this picture in my old pics of him. Note that this is only part of the enclosure, and that at this time I had been experimenting with substrates and was using paper towels. I was NOT using a UTH at that time.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...88/encpaco.jpg

That aquarium rock on the left? You can get them at Petco and I like it because it wears down on their nails so you don't have to trim them as much, or at all!

Also, if your dragon wants more security, add a background to your tank... mine loved watching stuff moving outside the window so I couldn't bear to add one :)

Heatrocks are from the devil! :D:P

We never had issues with either of our dragons with feeding in the enclosure. Somehow they just never got impacted on the play sand, even if they got some in their mouth. And they were never against coming out of their enclosure. They loved the attention and loved coming out to stretch their legs.

Icygirl: so you used a UTH? Why in the world would you do that? I really hope im reading that wrong.

I have to disagree. Washed and sifter play sand is fine for adult Bearded Dragons. Ask most Beardie experts, 75% will say go for it. As long as you feed outside the enclosure and take proper precautions that is :).

I mean the best substrate, with the least risk is of course, paper towels or unprinted paper, but play sand is acceptable for adults.

IMO, you should never you use play sand for juveniles or baby Bearded Dragons.

If you do decide to use washed and sifter play sand, I'd like to make the suggestion of changing the substrate once a month or so. It brings down the risk for the spread of bacteria, etc.

Here is my little 4 month old, Yoda. He is a Hypo Tangerine.
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/j...zards/yoda.jpg

Wow, he is nice! I still do not agree with playsand, Impaction is not what i am mainly concerned about,

here is Nugget,

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/c...s/IMG_0688.jpg

He is Citris.

I'm a bit concerned here. By a few things. Playsand is okay for an adult, but not for a baby or a juvie under twelve inches

Babies are cricket hoovers, you can't overfeed them if you space out the meals, 2-3 times a day as much as he will eat in ten minutes. There is an old school thinking that babies are primarily insect eaters, recent field studies in Australia show that's wrong. Babies will eat a good bit of salad. I started my 2005 hatchlings on a mush made from greens, soaked Repcal juvie beardie pellets and cricketfood.com's Da Good Stuff in a food processor with a fingers worth of water. Mush with green gravy!
I have pics of hatchlings encircling the mush and diving in!

UTH are not the best, especially if you use sand...beardies love to dig. Anyway, the point is moot, this is a baby and no sand for babies period. I love Duck brand shelf liner, so easy to clean.
Even my adults get half marine carpet, half shelfliner, and they are smart, they've learned to poop on the liner. The adults get a tray of playsand to dig in on the side, And sometimes especially during the summer, it's changed to a tray of water for a soak if they want. Night time, if extra heat is needed, a CHE on a thermostat or rheostat is superior. Babies see all the colors of any light you try and it can disturb their sleep. Beardeddragon is correct also about UTH and how diurnal reptiles like dragons have fewer nerve networks on their dorsum to warn them when they could burn their little bellies. When I was a newbie, I had a UTH, but I learned from the real pros that they are useless at best.

I noticed someone recommended compact UVB. At the moment, until the manufacturers fix the problem, compacts are bad. They have been causing eye problems in many reptile species. Better to go fluorescent tube, like the Reptisun 10.0 tube for samll tanks, no smaller than a 20 gallon, and a nice Mega-ray MVB when you get a 50 gallon when the dragon becomes an adult. Of course, with a mercury vapor, a UVB meter can save you tons by measuring UVB output. I have had a few Megarays that have lasted well over 9 months putting out adequate UVB.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Wow, he is nice! I still do not agree with playsand, Impaction is not what i am mainly concerned about,

here is Nugget,

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/c...s/IMG_0688.jpg

He is Citris.

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What a beautiful Bearded Dragon! :D

And for more information regarding the compact bulb problem:

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beansidhe

And for more information regarding the compact bulb problem:

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/

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That's really weird, I am missing the post where some recommended compacts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Icygirl: so you used a UTH? Why in the world would you do that? I really hope im reading that wrong.

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In my personal situation, my UTH was in a place covered with sand where my dragon never dug holes, and he was very closely monitored. If he had started to dig around the UTH area, I would have removed it. I believed that the UTH helped to keep my temperatures up at night; maybe I was wrong. However, understand that I had a very healthy, happy dragon who never had a problem with burns. It just hurts when I hear things like "Why in the world would you do that, I really hope I'm reading that wrong!" as if I were a blundering newbie and knew nothing about beardie health. I'm not saying I was 100% correct, but you should try and choose your words more thoughtfully. I'm sure in the past you have said things that are not agreed upon by others, and I'm sure you would not like to be derided because of that.

Also, on the sand issue. I do agree that young dragons cannot be on sand as they are difficult to get out of their enclosure for outside feeding. It's not a good idea to handle very young dragons a lot. I believe that as they get older, sand can be a practical choice for some keepers - note I said SOME, as everyone has different preferences on this issue. When I wrote about sand as a substrate, I mainly had adult beardies in mind, so I apologize to Jay for not making that clear. Although I believe Jay already knew not to use sand for juvies, so like Bean said... moot point.

Also, I don't think anyone on here has recommended compact UV bulbs....

I dont think anyone here has argued playsand is ok for juvies or adults, In my opinion, a adult over 16" and over 1 year old can live on playsand fine. Just make sure the dragon has perfected his hunting skills so he doesnt scoop any sand in, and is not a licky dragon, Mine licks everything in site, so i dont use sand, It would be too much of a risk.

With impaction, babies digestive track has a kink in it, as they grow longer and wider, it stretches out, by an adult, or adult size, it is streched out, and strait, reducing the chance of a blockage. Thats why its safer for adults and not babies. But what people forget is impaction is also defined as the blockage of nutrients being absorbed to the body because of foreign residue. Take sand, sprinkle it down a wet straw, and run your fingers down it in a motion a muscle would make, and you will see, some will fall through, some will get pushed through, some will get stuck, and alot will line the inside, Over time this linning causes a blockage, less nutrients is absorbed, and eventually can starve. All because of a few licks of sand a day.

But in general, a full grown adult wont have blockage problems, but there is a chance over time to have a build up along the walls.

Anyway, I didnt see compacts either, I recomended against them, in my first post in this thread, and gave the same site. Anyway, i totally agree.

And i really think everyone needs to see the gray areas in care, there are great standards, but things can be done to reduce risks, making certain things exceptable, under the right responsible keeper, Like playsand with adults, though IMO not the best choice, with an adult there is little risk.

And as for the "Natural look", id just like to say, in the wild only a tiny percent survive past hatchling stage, even smaller survive to adults, mainly prey, impaction, starvation and fighting. So natural is not always Best. But besides that, in the wild they live on various forms of ground, Mainly hard packed red clay, that has a dusty covering, but also burnt down forests, and arid forests, Tree stumps, peoples gardens, and grasslands. You wont find any high levels of sand, just dust that coats clay.

Regardless, Good luck with your dragon, Give your mom some links to caresheets, make sure she knows exactly what shes getting into, and make her promise not to toss it when she is bored. I know it sounds childish, but its worth a try.

I've warned her before about her habit of tossing animal but she doesn't listen. The best I can do is come to the rescue of the beardie when she gets tired of it. And I would rather her get a dragon from a show since it will be healthier to start out with than a petstore dragon.

I am fully aware that sand is a no-no for young dragons and thankyou for the info about the natural habitat of bearded dragons. I wasn't aware they lived on anything other than sand. Question..Without damaging the enclosure, is there anyway to duplicate that hard clay and dusty surface? If not, then I am fine with tile, reptile carpet, or whatever else is suggested. I would like a naturalistic enclosure for the dragon, but if "naturalistic" is going to be any sort of harmful I will not do it and go for something more practical.

Thank you for the information on the lights. I will definatly be getting good lighting as we had issues with a previous dragon and we didn't set the light up correctly and he wasn't getting the right amount of UV light. I won't make that mistake again!

Also, please lets not go knocking other keeper's husbandry ok. :D To each his own and as long as there is no harm to the dragon and it is happy and healthy, I see no problem with someone doing things their way. The UTH may not be the best choice in a heating element and may pose burning risk, but she explained how it was set up and she was prepared to act in case there was any evidence of it becoming a problem. The way I see it, that is responsible and we don't need to go knocking heads over it. Personally I will not be using a UTH and will stick with lighting to be my main source of heat.

I thank all of you for your information and I will definatly be doing further research on the bearded dragon. If my mother does not get one or does not get tired of hers, I may opt to get one for myself this summer if I feel I am ready to have one....or two..hehe.

Definitally try to go through a breeder, ask about the parents their history, size and health, lean towards larger dragons, not the small colorful ones, (big ones can be colorful too, just alot of small colorful dragons attract people and are not so healthy), and if you can, look into adenovirus, its something to know about when it comes to beardies.

Its hard to get natural, ive heard of a loam/clay/sand mix, but its hard to acheive really, I use tile, love it, i have ceramic thats sand colored, and now this earth tone one, both bumpy, uneaven and all unique. Many do 1/2 sand 1/2 tile for an adult, its safe to feed salad and have a water bowl on the tile side, but still have some digging room. A good compramise IMO, and if my dragon ever stops being so licky i may add some just to be safe as she is a female. Anyway, ive never actually seen a true naturalistic enclosure for any reptile, a bunch that look natural but dont to a good job of mimicing the habitat, it would be hard in any case. but i havent figured out the clay thing, sorry.

Anyway, a dragon is a great choice for yourself too, just remember they cant be housed together, so 2 means 2 enclosures. But they are a ton of fun, and really great.

Another use for a water bowl is that, even if they don't drink in it, some dragons prefer to defecate in the water bowl.

I'd just use some nice tile at the bottom, like Crazydude said, and get some really beautiful and natural looking wood to put in there. I found some really nice pieces at a local pet store, and they really added a lot to the tank. Plus, they don't look as "fake" as some of the plastic pieces.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by icygirl

In my personal situation, my UTH was in a place covered with sand where my dragon never dug holes, and he was very closely monitored. If he had started to dig around the UTH area, I would have removed it. I believed that the UTH helped to keep my temperatures up at night; maybe I was wrong. However, understand that I had a very healthy, happy dragon who never had a problem with burns. It just hurts when I hear things like "Why in the world would you do that, I really hope I'm reading that wrong!" as if I were a blundering newbie and knew nothing about beardie health. I'm not saying I was 100% correct, but you should try and choose your words more thoughtfully. I'm sure in the past you have said things that are not agreed upon by others, and I'm sure you would not like to be derided because of that.

Also, on the sand issue. I do agree that young dragons cannot be on sand as they are difficult to get out of their enclosure for outside feeding. It's not a good idea to handle very young dragons a lot. I believe that as they get older, sand can be a practical choice for some keepers - note I said SOME, as everyone has different preferences on this issue. When I wrote about sand as a substrate, I mainly had adult beardies in mind, so I apologize to Jay for not making that clear. Although I believe Jay already knew not to use sand for juvies, so like Bean said... moot point.

Also, I don't think anyone on here has recommended compact UV bulbs

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Im sorry for that, i had just got done cleaning and i react to dust with puffy eyes sneezeing and a horrible headache;)
What im trying to say about UTH and sand is:

Beardies Cannot feel heat from their undersides, not only can they get burnt( which can be unlikely but possible) but for the fact that they cant feel it, there is no use for it unless they were laying upside down. Like bean said, if you want to keep night time heat up use CHE bulbs that do not emit any lights.

Sand: Like ive said before, impaction is not the only issue. When they poop the sand soaks up alot of it and normaly more than "spot cleaning" will pick up. If you use sand id compleatly change out the sand everytime they poop...:P That is not easy or fun to do!

Jay, if you want something that looks natural to them, id use tile. It is as close to the wild (packed down clay) as you can get. It is also very easy to clean, just take the tile out and scrub it off, and put it back in:gj: I used paper towels before i used tile, and cleaning was done in seconds!

Here is Nuggets tank( with his heat lamp moved for the sake of the photo) This was the day i moved him into it, he was not happy... take a look at his black beard!


http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...IMG_0539-1.jpg