YES they are doing it!! (the FL laws for large snakes)

Quote:

---

Reptiles of Concern
Reptiles of Concern (ROCs) are nonnative reptile species that have the potential to become established in Florida and can threaten native wildlife, cause economic damage or pose a threat to human safety. Rules for Reptiles of Concern (ROCs) go into effect on January 1, 2008. ROCs require a $100 annual permit for personal possession, and any ROC that is 2 inches or greater in diameter must be permanently identified by a microchip (also called a PIT tag). Microchips can be implanted by local veterinarians who work with nonnative species. Any person who possesses an ROC that is 2 inches or greater in diameter before January 1, 2008 will have until July 1, 2008 to get their animal microchipped. Any ROC greater than 2 inches in diameter purchased after January 1, 2008 will need to be microchipped immediately. The following are the Reptiles of Concern:

Burmese python (Python molurus)
African rock python (Python sebae)
Amethystine python (Morelia amethystinus)
Reticulated python (Python reticulatus)
Green anaconda (Eunectes murinus)
Nile monitor (Varanus niloticus)

---

http://myfwc.com/nonnatives/RuleRegs.html
awesome!! im in such support of this law, i have always thought "how can they enforce the law if theres no way to know where the animal came from" woo hoo... while it is annoying to have to obtain a permit im glad they are doing something!

this is for fl only??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jdmls88

this is for fl only??

---

im not sure.. i just know its found on the myflorida website. i would imagine there are other states that have similar laws but florida takes alot of heat for irrisponsible reptile owners letting their snakes go in the everglades.

Quote:

---

Venomous reptiles require a permit for personal possession. Cost of the permit is $100 per year. Owners of venomous reptiles must be at least 18 years of age, must not have been convicted of violating venomous reptile regulations for 3 years prior to their permit application and demonstrate no less than 1 year of experience (no less than 1000 hours) in the husbandry of the species they plan to own or similar species within the same biological family. Documented experience in zoology or other relevant biological sciences at the college or technical school level or above may substitute for 6 months (or 500 hours) of the required experience. Exhibitors of venomous reptiles must also post a $10,000 bond, effective July 1, 2007.

---

holy smokes.. did you read that! Im just glad there are strict rules in place even if it is annoying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jdmls88

this is for fl only??

---

For now, yes.

FL is one of the only places where those species can live. I agree with the legislation on this. It will lower the number of idiots buying big snakes.

I think that some amount of regulation is appropriate in areas like South Florida where these species can affect native ecosystems.

However, I don't know how they are going to enforce this.

If Joe Blow is the kind of guy who would dump a snake in the Everglades, why then would he comply with this law, microchip the animal, and then release it into the Everglades for it to be possibly caught by a USFW official, and tracked back to him?

You are basically setting up a scenario where officials will need to be paid to collect invasive animals, scam them to see if they are chipped, and then go after the owners that dumped them, assuming that owner even microchipped it to begin with or sold it to someone else who them dumped the animal.

IMHO, I think that the regulation shouldn't only take place on the consumer level, but also on the people who SELL them. I'll go back to the exotic cat analogy...there are people that breed exotic cats like servals, bobcats, etc, and can not legally sell them to someone who doesn't also have a permit. It varies from state to state but most require you to gain some practical experience with a licensed keeper, and demonstrate you have adequate facilities to house the animals, before you yourself can obtain one of those species. This process alone weeds out a TON of idiots who probably would have obtained these animals if there wasn't any red tape.

I don't think it should be any different with the species on the ROC list. Logistically, local governments could integrate these species in the processes they already have in place for other regulated wild animals. It would be much easier and cost-effective to enforce.

Ah wonderful! Now I just hope this trumps the proposed ban on ALL python species. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

FL is one of the only places where those species can live.

---

That's not true. There is a USA Today article out now that is discussing that.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...-pythons_N.htm

It may not be completely true to fact, but Florida is not the really the only place where they can live. I know you said ONE of the only places, but any state that has no extreme low temps can harbor the ROC list.

For the most part I agree with the first the part of elevatethis's post, that the permits are going to do pretty much nothing for the people who caused the invasion issue in the first place. However, personally, I think it's a load of *&%$ and that alot of the 'cheers' for this are just stages of initial relief that all species haven't been banned completely. 1, 2 or even 5 years down the road they are going to look at this, realize that it's done nothing to solve the underlying issue and then use that to justify stricter and broader laws regarding the issue. This all under the process of law making and is a political trick on the public used to gain acceptance. They pass a small statute and if that works, they use it to justify passing a more official law, if it doesn't work they use it to justify passing an even stricter law because obviously in the statute phase the problem wasn't affected.

Frankly the 10,000$ bond for exhibition of venemous animals is absolute garbage. It's going to prevent responsible keepers from promoting education and awareness about these species to the general public - who on earth can afford to raise and then toss away that much money for a little while (even if they do get it back) just to educate the public? Not many people, and certainly (I'd like to venture) most of the people in the hobby don't have that much money to just toss around. The fact someone does have that much money to post the bond says nothing for their keeping abilities, understanding of the animal or educational facilities either.

I would think that any state where the temp can drop down below freezing, even for only short periods of time, would kill off any feral burms. Even Florida can have cold snaps where the temps drop below freezing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkS

I would think that any state where the temp can drop down below freezing, even for only short periods of time, would kill off any feral burms. Even Florida can have cold snaps where the temps drop below freezing.

---

Exactly, the warmest and most tropical place in the lower 48, Florida, still has 30-40 degree temps in deep winter. Considering RIs start at like 70 degrees? I'm not buying the news scare to be honest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GirDance

For the most part I agree with the first the part of elevatethis's post, that the permits are going to do pretty much nothing for the people who caused the invasion issue in the first place. However, personally, I think it's a load of *&%$ and that alot of the 'cheers' for this are just stages of initial relief that all species haven't been banned completely. 1, 2 or even 5 years down the road they are going to look at this, realize that it's done nothing to solve the underlying issue and then use that to justify stricter and broader laws regarding the issue. This all under the process of law making and is a political trick on the public used to gain acceptance. They pass a small statute and if that works, they use it to justify passing a more official law, if it doesn't work they use it to justify passing an even stricter law because obviously in the statute phase the problem wasn't affected.

---

What you're describing here is the concept of a "slippery slope." I totally hear you on that and agree that it could get worse if the legislative process goes through unchecked.

I don't see how the permit process as it is applied to big cats or other mammals wouldn't also work for the reptiles on the ROC list. Sure, it wouldn't magically remove the invasive populations from the wild, but it would at very least prevent a large amount of animals being introduced in the future. At very least it would buy time for trappers to start erradicating the invasive species there so far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

IMHO, I think that the regulation shouldn't only take place on the consumer level, but also on the people who SELL them. I'll go back to the exotic cat analogy...there are people that breed exotic cats like servals, bobcats, etc, and can not legally sell them to someone who doesn't also have a permit. It varies from state to state but most require you to gain some practical experience with a licensed keeper, and demonstrate you have adequate facilities to house the animals, before you yourself can obtain one of those species. This process alone weeds out a TON of idiots who probably would have obtained these animals if there wasn't any red tape.

I don't think it should be any different with the species on the ROC list. Logistically, local governments could integrate these species in the processes they already have in place for other regulated wild animals. It would be much easier and cost-effective to enforce.

---

They do enforce it on the people selling Burms and such. In about 3 different stores there are Burms in tanks labeled "PERMIT REQUIRED". Now since I havn't bought a Burm I can't say how the actual enforcement goes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

They do enforce it on the people selling Burms and such. In about 3 different stores there are Burms in tanks labeled "PERMIT REQUIRED". Now since I havn't bought a Burm I can't say how the actual enforcement goes.

---

I wasn't aware of that. Is that statewide or by county?

What about reptile expos?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

Exactly, the warmest and most tropical place in the lower 48, Florida, still has 30-40 degree temps in deep winter. Considering RIs start at like 70 degrees? I'm not buying the news scare to be honest.

---

It may be a news scare, but there is a fragment of truth to it or it wouldn't have been posted.

I may be giving too much credit to the media, but I do agree with the possibilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

What you're describing here is the concept of a "slippery slope." I totally hear you on that and agree that it could get worse if the legislative process goes through unchecked.

I don't see how the permit process as it is applied to big cats or other mammals wouldn't also work for the reptiles on the ROC list. Sure, it wouldn't magically remove the invasive populations from the wild, but it would at very least prevent a large amount of animals being introduced in the future. At very least it would buy time for trappers to start erradicating the invasive species there so far.

---

It's not so much a 'slippery slope' as it is empirically proven through historic research of the progression of statutes and laws.

The whole point is, the people causing the issue are the same sort of people who are going to completely ignore the permit process and continue on with what they've been doing in the past.

As I'm simultaneously on the phone with a friend who works for the SPCA and is also scoffing this, apparently 60% of the 'stray' cats they take in and can't find the original owners for are also micro-chipped. No one forces them to update their address etc or even provide accurate information after the initial paperwork, so the cats end up staying there or being put down.

Either way, it's not something to be over joyed about, and the only good I see it actually doing is to open doors to further regulations in the future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

I wasn't aware of that. Is that statewide or by county?

What about reptile expos?

---

Just here in FL at the moment. I pretty sure stores have to keep a record of who they sell the snakes to. They have something down here with all birds that are sold, for basically the same reason.

Customers are required to give Drivers ID, Address, DOB and a few other things, I would assume it is similar to snakes.

in jersey all animals require a permit to buy and own in the pet trade all reptiles and tarantulas, ferret, rabbits, gerbils, guinea pigs, almost all the animals that you get in a pet store up here you need to get a permit. jersey sucks for owning animals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LadyOhh

It may be a news scare, but there is a fragment of truth to it or it wouldn't have been posted.

I may be giving too much credit to the media, but I do agree with the possibilities.

---

Where in the US can other tropical snakes live? All the article says is they thing they could be moving up the coast or out west. Out west is way to dry and anywhere else it will be too cold. In the article it says burms were found in mid 90's and they weren't repopulating in the wild until around 2003.

I agree burms can be found elsewhere other than Florida, however I severely doubt they can thrive and breed anywhere else.

Only time will tell I guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

I agree burms can be found elsewhere other than Florida, however I severely doubt they can thrive and breed anywhere else.

Only time will tell I guess.

---

Hey, if they can survive a cold snap in Florida, who knows what else they can handle. They are hardy animals...

It's a shame it is happening this way, but something that obviously needs to be addressed.

Sad that poor pet ownership has led to this... :tears:

Is there any proof that they are actually breeding successfully in Florida?

I haven't seen or read anything, so I ask the question....

this is like gun control... the laws are idiotic and only effect law abiding citizens which, in the end, has little to no effect.

If you do a search, you can find the captured and killed amount of Burmese in the everglades for the past 5-10 years... I think it was something like 13,000 when I was looking... could be massively wrong about that

Edit: I have no clue where i saw 13,000, I may have dreamed that number up :oops:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sputnik

Is there any proof that they are actually breeding successfully in Florida?

---

If you trust the source...

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...species_2.html

"The pythons are now most certainly breeding in the park. They have been found eating gray squirrels, possums, black rats, and house wrens. Perhaps even more worrying, the pythons may be preying on native mangrove fox squirrels and wood storks. And they could be competing with the eastern indigo snake for both prey and space. The eastern indigo snake is listed as threatened by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Edit: I have no clue where i saw 13,000, I may have dreamed that number up :oops:

---

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/Fish/southf...ewild2004.html

68 from 1990 to 2004... Probably way more, but not close to 13,000....

Another from 2005:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9600151/

"It is unknown how many pythons are competing with the thousands of alligators in the Everglades, but at least 150 have been captured in the past two years, said Joe Wasilewski, a wildlife biologist and crocodile tracker."

I found this one too

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/10/16/St...m_tough_.shtml
In the past three years, Snow and others at the park have captured 156 pythons, some big (15 feet) and some small (foot-long hatchlings). Almost all have been euthanized. Snow knows there are more out there, lurking in the marsh: female pythons have been found with some 40-50 eggs inside.

Well beware as the other states will follow:mad:.See what a few ignorant idiots can cause :mad:

Having collected X amount of specimens doesn't prove they are breeding, many are released by irresponsible owners. I'm more interested in data on found clutches.

Once again I will point out that Miami is the center for importation of reptiles. Miami is right next to the Everglades. Hmm.
How many of us SERIOUSLY belive that an irresponsible owner will DRIVE down to the Everglades to dump an unwanted snake? Do you really believe that THAT MANY irresponsible owners live next to the Everglades and dump them there?

The South Florida and Everglades rarely EVER have severe freezes, so some pythons can survive there. I will not believe that a warm-weather species python will survive through extended freezing temputures. How many pythons have lived in the wild anywhere other than South Florida?

While I would love to see potential owners made aware of the difficulties of owning a giant, and love the idea of MAKING sure the owners are responsible prior to selling them a giant, this law doesn't really do much to make that happen.

How many times have you heard of someone mailing snakes through the US Postal service? That's Federal Law. Yet it happens all the time. People who don't want to be bothered with permits or chips will simply buy one elsewhere, thus punishing the legitimate reptile dealers. There's plenty of sellers online that would ship you whatever you want, without asking a single question. There's sellers online that will sell you a venomous species without asking. How much easier will it be to buy a 'harmless' giant python?

While I like it as an idea, I doubt the new law will do anything other than make way for the next law, which will be even more prohibitive.

$100 *each* year? In my case, with one snake within the species list, that'd be no problem, but I had several animals within these species or, heaven forbid, I was breeder, that's a big amount to pay EVERY year...unless I'm reading it wrong.

I don't think it is $100 per snake. Just $100 per year to own any number of them, but I'm sure they have to be registered.

Quote:

---

The South Florida and Everglades rarely EVER have severe freezes, so some pythons can survive there. I will not believe that a warm-weather species python will survive through extended freezing temputures. How many pythons have lived in the wild anywhere other than South Florida

---

What do you consider severe freeze? 20 degrees? 30 degrees? There are periods of time in Florida where the weather stays around 60 day time and 30-40 at night. Pythons have been known to develop RI's below 70 and if a wild Python gets an RI, it is a goner.

Yes it is only for $100 for the permit. As long as the reptiles you own that are under the Concern list are chipped and registered then your fine.

I consider a severe freeze to be of extended time. A couple of hours at 31F.. not really a hard freeze.
IF a wild python found a deep burrow, it might survive a light freeze, IF it was healthy and did not develop an RI, and the burrow was warm enough for it not to become torpid.
Much further north than the Everglades, and you get hard freezes a couple times a year. I'm in mid-florida, and we had a few freezes where it got to 25F? for several hours, and only went about freezing well after daylight. It did that three nights in a row. Would anyone count on their burmese or retic surviving that sort of cold without treatment?

I love hearing more people trusting in personal freedom and responsibility than trusting a new "law" or government regulation on everyone to solve a problem.

I posted this in another forum:

What I find "interesting" is that the American Alligator can go from their low numbers to over 1 million and that's a good thing, but a couple hundred Burmese pythons can be let go in the Everglades and suddenly they're disrupting the balance of nature!

If there was a 20ft python naturally in the Everglades and their numbers were in the hundreds, it would be put on a critically endangered species list for fears of its extinction! And environutjobs would blame humans for it. Yet for some reason just because these pythons weren't naturally put there, they're going to overpopulate and kill off native species. HUH?????

Don't you think the over 1 million alligators are eating more of those native species than a couple hundred "critically endangered" pythons?

Just helping us all think out of the box a little.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bait4snake

I love hearing more people trusting in personal freedom and responsibility than trusting a new "law" or government regulation on everyone to solve a problem.

I posted this in another forum:

What I find "interesting" is that the American Alligator can go from their low numbers to over 1 million and that's a good thing, but a couple hundred Burmese pythons can be let go in the Everglades and suddenly they're disrupting the balance of nature!

If there was a 20ft python naturally in the Everglades and their numbers were in the hundreds, it would be put on a critically endangered species list for fears of its extinction! And environutjobs would blame humans for it. Yet for some reason just because these pythons weren't naturally put there, they're going to overpopulate and kill off native species. HUH?????

Don't you think the over 1 million alligators are eating more of those native species than a couple hundred "critically endangered" pythons?

Just helping us all think out of the box a little.

---

You've made a pretty good argument here and I understand your points, but it is flawed in that you are comparing the american alligator, an animal that is NATIVE to that environment, to a burmese python, an animal that is from the other side of the world and has very few natural predators. The dynamics of what could happen if the population establishes itself are completely different.

Are you saying that burmese pythons and other ROCs in the everglades isn't a big deal? The consequences of thos reptiles establishing themselves and out-competing a native species absolutely could upset the ecosystem.

boy did i open a huge can of worms

Alligators have few natural predetors(once grown), as do the burmese pythons(once grown).

Technically, if they did breed, the large number of hatchlings might be a good food item for a lot of Everglades wildlife... the eggs would be eaten by numerous animals as well(if they get to them).

I still do not think alligators were ever at the low numbers that they reported. I think the reports were faulty.

That said, large non-native snakes with no predetors once full size are NOT a good thing for the Everglades. The place is at a delicate balance already due to people draining it, polluting it, and developing it. I'd bet that feral cats eat thousands more native species in south florida than the feral(released) pythons do. I don't see any programs for eliminating the cats.. but cats are fuzzy wuzzy warm-blooded furpeople. Snakes are easier to paint as a villian.

Here is the website of the USGS article that is the basis for all of the news stories we've been seeing lately.

http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1875

If you look at the maps at the bottom, it just makes absolutely no sense that burms could survive to become invasive species that far north. There must be something wrong in their calculations.

LOL I would love to see some prarie burms :rolleyes:. The green on those maps needs to be shrunk down to the lower half of FL. The fact that I see North Carolina in there, which has temps that drop to the teens for long periods of time, along with the severe ice storms make me believe this BS even less.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

The green on those maps needs to be shrunk down to the lower half of FL. The fact that I see North Carolina in there, which has temps that drop to the teens for long periods of time, along with the severe ice storms make me believe this BS even less.

---

According to the map my area (Southeast corner of VA) would be a suitable climate...:confused: Maybe in the summer, but the rest of the year would be too cold... It's too cold here for me..LOL!!!

Remember "War of the Worlds"? What killed off the aliens wasn't some big warplane, it was disease. I'm pretty lame for using that as an example, but if I go to Mexico for a couple weeks, I almost die from some stomach bug. What kills big burms, even in their natural habitat, is disease from teenie tiny things. I really don't think burms down there are a big deal, nor do I think it's ok for morons to let them go. They won't establish themselves like rats would.

.......entire populations of small animals have been completely destoryed by feral cats......Yet NO real legislation....

...it all plays on the fear of reptiles...

..when gator skins were in high demand.....PEOPLE caused entire populations to be wiped out and forced legislation to regulate the skin trade in order to stop possible extinction.....and PEOPLE have caused numerous animals to become extinct.......I doubt they will have too much trouble wiping out wild burms if they put their minds to it and forget about what animal rights people have to say....

All the media focus on wild burms is just to put fear in people... allowing the government to take more control over our freedoms....

...won't it be great when we are like China.....remember when they had a few people get rabies and blame pet dogs?......if not, look it up.....thats what this country is coming to.