I tried keeping them separated

Ok about 2 months ago i separated my BPs as you all told me to do.

They were born together in the same clutch.

I heard that sometimes snakes can fast and not eat for a long time. I separated them into identical 20 gallon tanks. Both of them pretty much completely stopped being active and did not want to eat anything. They seemed to go days at a time without hardly moving.

I put them back together and within a week they both are eating and active again.

I noticed that when they are in here, they are always together and wrapped up together on a little ball.

When i hold them they always go by each other and hang out.

It isnt just one that does it, they each go to each other.

Does it seem like it is ok to keep them together? I know everyone says it is cruel to keep them together, but after watching them they seem happier i think.

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Originally Posted by jseber1982

Ok about 2 months ago i separated my BPs as you all told me to do.

They were born together in the same clutch.

I heard that sometimes snakes can fast and not eat for a long time. I separated them into identical 20 gallon tanks. Both of them pretty much completely stopped being active and did not want to eat anything. They seemed to go days at a time without hardly moving.

I put them back together and within a week they both are eating and active again.

I noticed that when they are in here, they are always together and wrapped up together on a little ball.

When i hold them they always go by each other and hang out.

It isnt just one that does it, they each go to each other.

Does it seem like it is ok to keep them together? I know everyone says it is cruel to keep them together, but after watching them they seem happier i think.

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You might be anthropomorphizing. It will be interesting to read the responses from others who know far more than I in this matter...

Snakes arnt social. Its a dominant thing that you are seeing. They don't make friends, they don't love each other. They are better off separate. But I don't know what to say about the feeding thing, but I am sure after a few more trys they will.

Rather than put them back together, I would have put each of them in smaller tubs, and they likely would have fed for you again. Sounds like they were behaving just like ball pythons should when they were separated (aside from the not eating - which was probably because their enclosure was too open to feel secure).

Everything you described is dominance behavior.

I think that a 20 gallon is a large enclosure in the first place, have you tried a small snug tub?

No i have not tried smaller tubs.... when i feed them, i take them out and put them in a small 1x2ft tub

I figured that they felt secure. Half of the time they burrow down into the substrate and i dont even see them

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Originally Posted by jseber1982

No i have not tried smaller tubs.... when i feed them, i take them out and put them in a small 1x2ft tub

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Go buy some 6qts. If you can get them in black, go for it. Then feed them in there tubs like that. Buy some binderclips for the tubs too. good luck!

Have you attempted to feed in their enclosures? moving them around before feeding them may only bother them.

Yeah, with balls- what looks like cute cuddling is really a play for power to prove who is in charge in the cage.

Snakes suffer some of the worst out of animals when it comes to anthropomorphizing.

What looks like snuggles is a power struggle, what looks like smiling/happy dog panting is usually an RI and a big hug from a burm is never out of love!

right now on the warm side i have the undertank heater and a basking lamp....

With a tub, do i just put an undertank heater on one side and not worry about a light? Or do i put a hole in the top on one side for a light.

I was watching the feeding 8pb feeding video and i didnt see any lights or heating sources in the tubs.

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Originally Posted by jseber1982

I was watching the feeding 8pb feeding video and i didnt see any lights or heating sources in the tubs.

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He doesn't use any lights. He does use a heat source under the tubs tho.

I guess it is just hard to want to stick them in a tub.. but i guess to them it is more like a natural habitat.

I just feel bad sticking them in a little dark tub with no crawl room and nothing to do.

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Originally Posted by jseber1982

I guess it is just hard to want to stick them in a tub.. but i guess to them it is more like a natural habitat.

I just feel bad sticking them in a little dark tub with no crawl room and nothing to do.

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They arnt rats. No need to crawl around too much, they don't loose muscling like we would if we just sit around. All my snakes are in tubs and thriving, eating all the time, and growing big. Yes, just put the UTH under the tubs as you would with a tank.

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Originally Posted by jseber1982

I guess it is just hard to want to stick them in a tub.. but i guess to them it is more like a natural habitat.

I just feel bad sticking them in a little dark tub with no crawl room and nothing to do.

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They dont play Ball or anything.. They just eat breed and Poop!

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

They dont play Ball or anything.. They just eat breed and Poop!

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And this makes me wonder why so many people want to have them as pets, when thats all they do!

I like them because i believe they are lovable. I love holding them....hell they are more lovable than any cat or dog i have ever had..........lol lemme guess.... holding them too much is bad

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Originally Posted by stangs13

And this makes me wonder why so many people want to have them as pets, when thats all they do!

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I'll share with you why I love them: my ego is completely out of the picture. Snakes have an entirely different physiology and brain structure relative to mammals. Snakes will never care whether I live or die. Snakes will never give me unconditional love and affection. Snakes will never snuggle with me when I've had a bad day or make me feel proud because I have taught them their latest command. For me, Snake is a great teacher. Snake teaches that I can care for and invest in something and it is okay that I will never get anything in return. For me, this is refreshing for my brain and joyful for my heart.

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

They dont play Ball or anything.. They just eat breed and Poop!

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awesome comment... just awesome!

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Originally Posted by jseber1982

I like them because i believe they are lovable. I love holding them....hell they are more lovable than any cat or dog i have ever had..........lol lemme guess.... holding them too much is bad

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this thread concerned me to start with... this comment makes me even more concerned... how much research was done early on.

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Originally Posted by starmom

I'll share with you why I love them: my ego is completely out of the picture. Snakes have an entirely different physiology and brain structure relative to mammals. Snakes will never care whether I live or die. Snakes will never give me unconditional love and affection. Snakes will never snuggle with me when I've had a bad day or make me feel proud because I have taught them their latest command. For me, Snake is a great teacher. Snake teaches that I can care for and invest in something and it is okay that I will never get anything in return. For me, this is refreshing for my brain and joyful for my heart.

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great statement. i love how you put things :gj: i couldnt agree more

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Originally Posted by starmom

I'll share with you why I love them: my ego is completely out of the picture. Snakes have an entirely different physiology and brain structure relative to mammals. Snakes will never care whether I live or die. Snakes will never give me unconditional love and affection. Snakes will never snuggle with me when I've had a bad day or make me feel proud because I have taught them their latest command. For me, Snake is a great teacher. Snake teaches that I can care for and invest in something and it is okay that I will never get anything in return. For me, this is refreshing for my brain and joyful for my heart.

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Wow. That was fantastic. I completely agree 110%.

i never thought of it that way. I guess you are right. They are not loving at all....I guess that lack of annoyances and stuff that gets me mad about a lot of other animals... makes it feel like they are loving

Yea...I'm a bit concerned that you didn't really do your research beforehand. You can't get a snake and then expect it to be like a cat or a dog. A snake doesn't care if you "play" with him. Your snake doesn't need or want a friend or a cagemate. They don't get lonely or sad or bored. They could give a hoot, so long as you keep them warm, give them a nice dark hidebox, keep their water bowl full, and feed them on schedule. It might be disappointing if you were expecting your snake (or snakes, in this case) to be something he isn't. But that's how they are.

There are a million and one reasons why your snakes wouldn't be eating after you seperated them, but I'd be willing to bet money that it wasn't missing their cagemate that did it. What are your temps like? Humidity? How did you have the cages set up?

All I can say is, please, for the good of your animals, give them their own homes.

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Originally Posted by starmom

I'll share with you why I love them: my ego is completely out of the picture. Snakes have an entirely different physiology and brain structure relative to mammals. Snakes will never care whether I live or die. Snakes will never give me unconditional love and affection. Snakes will never snuggle with me when I've had a bad day or make me feel proud because I have taught them their latest command. For me, Snake is a great teacher. Snake teaches that I can care for and invest in something and it is okay that I will never get anything in return. For me, this is refreshing for my brain and joyful for my heart.

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Amazing statement and I couldn't agree more. :gj:

Personally I find joy in working hard to provide them with the best enclosures, observing them, and watching them grow. But even though snakes aren't as expressive as some mammals are, they definitely appreciate when their temps and humidity are right, they have a nice hide to curl up in, and they get a big juicy mouse/rat every week. That's a snake's idea of the rich life. :) :snake:

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Originally Posted by jseber1982

I guess it is just hard to want to stick them in a tub.. but i guess to them it is more like a natural habitat.

I just feel bad sticking them in a little dark tub with no crawl room and nothing to do.

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They will thank you... They love dark tight spaces. They will feel more secure. Hope this helps. :cool:

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Originally Posted by starmom

I'll share with you why I love them: my ego is completely out of the picture. Snakes have an entirely different physiology and brain structure relative to mammals. Snakes will never care whether I live or die. Snakes will never give me unconditional love and affection. Snakes will never snuggle with me when I've had a bad day or make me feel proud because I have taught them their latest command. For me, Snake is a great teacher. Snake teaches that I can care for and invest in something and it is okay that I will never get anything in return. For me, this is refreshing for my brain and joyful for my heart.

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Great post! I do think thegive rewards though! Like morphs, perfect sheds, and something to have that you like!! And Istill love em!

OP, do you have the size, pics or weights of these two animals? Then we can perhaps find a size tub better suited for your BP's making them feel secure and eat regularly.

All snakes are different, and you may find that one of the snakes prefers a very small tub to feel safe and eat, while the other really likes a 41 quart breeder tub. We have recommendations on what weight to put into which size tub, and it has worked well for hundreds of keepers.

The problem with tanks and large enclosures is that often the snake feels exposed, the temps and humidity aren't correct, and the change from one to another is a HUGE life changing experience for them. As humans, we have to understand that it takes weeks and sometimes months for these snakes to settle and feel safe. They have slow metabolism, and also have slow adjustments periods. 2 weeks may seem long to us, but for them its nothing at all.

A happy BP is a warm and hiding BP. :)

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They dont play Ball or anything.. They just eat breed and Poop!

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I disagree. There is no such thing as an enclosure that is too big... as long as the humidity and temperature is right, then the larger the better. Python Regius does indeed crawl around a lot for hunting in nature, especially during the wet period when the vegetation gives them plenty of security.

I would never ever keep an adult BP in an enclosure smaller than 4 x 2 ft.

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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

There is no such thing like an enclosure that is too big... as long as the humidity and temperature is right, then the larger the better. Python Regius does indeed crawl around a lot for hunting in nature, especially during the wet period when the vegetation gives them plenty of security.

I would never ever keep an adult BP in an enclosure smaller than 4 x 2 ft.

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The larger is not always the better, and that is truly a blanket statement.

We can dance around this again, but I won't go at it so fervently this time around.

While large enclosures are ok if the needs of the snake are met, there are exceptions to every rule, and for Ball pythons in particular, they like having a small enclosure when we cannot accurately reproduce their natural habitat.

Better yet, to give them a closely mimicked natural enclosure would mean to create a rodent burrow or termite mound, with a surrounding grassland or brush and forest and hope for the best.

While it is very unrealistic to keep any large collection of snakes with a cage 4 x 2 minimum, keeping them in smaller and easier to maintain enclosure is highly recommended, especially for the new keeper.

Smaller enclosures allow for easier climate control, easy supervision, and an easier and smaller job for cleaning.

A large natural enclosure is adequate for those that know what subtle cues to look for in the case that their snake does come under duress, and knows how to handle it appropriately. It's a big job, and should not be the first tier to shoot for when first keeping a new species of snake.

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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

I disagree. There is no such thing as an enclosure that is too big... as long as the humidity and temperature is right, then the larger the better. Python Regius does indeed crawl around a lot for hunting in nature, especially during the wet period when the vegetation gives them plenty of security.

I would never ever keep an adult BP in an enclosure smaller than 4 x 2 ft.

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Where do you keep all your snakes then? 6-10 2x4 tanks would get ridiculous. I have 6 10 gallon breeder tanks for my rats and mice and still think they take up to much room.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

The larger is not always the better, and that is truly a blanket statement.

We can dance around this again, but I won't go at it so fervently this time around.

While large enclosures are ok if the needs of the snake are met, there are exceptions to every rule, and for Ball pythons in particular, they like having a small enclosure when we cannot accurately reproduce their natural habitat.

Better yet, to give them a closely mimicked natural enclosure would mean to create a rodent burrow or termite mound, with a surrounding grassland or brush and forest and hope for the best.

While it is very unrealistic to keep any large collection on snakes with a cage 4 x 2 minimum, keeping them in smaller and easier to maintain enclosure is highly recommended, especially for the new keeper.

Smaller enclosures allow for easier climate control, easy supervision, and an easier and smaller job for cleaning.

A large natural enclosure is adequate for those that know what subtle cues to look for in the case that their snake does come under duress, and knows how to handle it appropriately. It's a big job, and should not be the first tier to shoot for when first keeping a new species of snake.

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Then we should agree to disagree... I think animals being kept in a prison should have at least one being as big as possible :)

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Originally Posted by WellyBelly

Where do you keep all your snakes then? 6-10 2x4 tanks would get ridiculous. I have 6 10 gallon breeder tanks for my rats and mice and still think they take up to much room.

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I have one 4 x 2 ft tank for my 05 female, and a 2 x 1.3 ft tank each for my other 07 BPs.

Let me get this straight, I am sure that a BP can feel great in a rather small enclosure. But my point is simply that whenever somebody has the chance to get a bigger enclosure and mantain it properly, he should :)

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

They dont play Ball or anything.. They just eat breed and Poop!

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Sounds about right...

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Originally Posted by stangs13

And this makes me wonder why so many people want to have them as pets, when thats all they do!

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If I didn't have a job...I wouldn't be far off from that. :banana:

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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

I disagree. There is no such thing as an enclosure that is too big... as long as the humidity and temperature is right, then the larger the better. Python Regius does indeed crawl around a lot for hunting in nature, especially during the wet period when the vegetation gives them plenty of security.

I would never ever keep an adult BP in an enclosure smaller than 4 x 2 ft.

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It is my understanding that ball pythons are not active hunters - they are ambush hunters and come and sit at the entrance of their burrows and wait for prey to come by.

If larger is better, why do so many keepers find when they move their ball pythons to larger enclosures that they get refusals, and then when they move them back into what some might even call cramped conditions, they no longer refuse food?

To me, that clearly signals that they actually PREFER the secure feeling that they get from a smaller enclosure.

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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Let me get this straight, I am sure that a BP can feel great in a rather small enclosure. But my point is simply that whenever somebody has the chance to get a bigger enclosure and mantain it properly, he should :)

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I'm not understanding the argument why someone "should" provide larger when herpetologists who have been working with these animals for many, many years with thousands of these animals all agree that they prefer smaller enclosures? It sounds to me more like your opinion that they should, because it's what you personally prefer. :confused:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

It is my understanding that ball pythons are not active hunters - they are ambush hunters and come and sit at the entrance of their burrows and wait for prey to come by.

If larger is better, why do so many keepers find when they move their ball pythons to larger enclosures that they get refusals, and then when they move them back into what some might even call cramped conditions, they no longer refuse food?

To me, that clearly signals that they actually PREFER the secure feeling that they get from a smaller enclosure.

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The literature (plenty) I read states that BPs do indeed explore their enviroment looking for food. And I know someone who has been to Ghana several times, visiting several hatching farms and talking to locals. He's got to know, and he has written a book about BPs in German where he just says that.

Maybe some keepers have trouble maintaining proper humidity/temps in larger tanks, thus experiencing refusals.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I'm not understanding the argument why someone "should" provide larger when herpetologists who have been working with these animals for many, many years with thousands of these animals all agree that they prefer smaller enclosures? It sounds to me more like your opinion that they should, because it's what you personally prefer. :confused:

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If they would prefer it, they would never leave their shelter in nature ;) And how do people know they actually prefer it, have they been talking to them? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

If they would prefer it, they would never leave their shelter in nature ;) And how do people know they actually prefer it, have they been talking to them? :confused:

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They leave their shelter in nature because there's not someone providing them with consistent temperatures, fresh water and food on a weekly basis.

They know that they prefer it by "listening" to their animals. If the animals is feeding better in a smaller enclosure (with all else remaining the same - temps and humidity and snug hides) then they're "telling" you that they prefer a smaller enclosure.

Another thing: Why would there be problems with BPs escaping if they love their small enclosure that much? As soon as you give them an oppurtunity, they escape... why? Because they are curious & looking for food elsewhere...
It's their natural habit, when they're hungry they go out and look for food...

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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

If they would prefer it, they would never leave their shelter in nature ;) And how do people know they actually prefer it, have they been talking to them? :confused:

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Which comes right back to where the majority of ball pythons are found. In their burrows...

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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Another thing: Why would there be problems with BPs escaping if they love their small enclosure that much? As soon as you give them an oppurtunity, they escape... why? Because they are curious & looking for food elsewhere...

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Have you been talking to your snake?? :confused:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Have you been talking to your snake?? :confused:

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Wait you don't talk to your snakes?:rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

They know that they prefer it by "listening" to their animals. If the animals is feeding better in a smaller enclosure (with all else remaining the same - temps and humidity and snug hides) then they're "telling" you that they prefer a smaller enclosure.

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I would be my car that a well done experiment would prove otherwise...

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Which comes right back to where the majority of ball pythons are found. In their burrows...

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Of course, because hunters look for snakes during the daytime ;)

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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Another thing: Why would there be problems with BPs escaping if they love their small enclosure that much? As soon as you give them an oppurtunity, they escape... why? Because they are curious & looking for food elsewhere...
It's their natural habit, when they're hungry they go out and look for food...

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It's interesting that you ask that - I've actually on a couple of occasions realized that I forgot to snap the lids down on my free standing tubs. Found my snakes happy and snug inside their hides (after a full day before discovering my mistake). I guess I must be providing them exactly what they need in their tubs. :)

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Originally Posted by rabernet

It's interesting that you ask that - I've actually on a couple of occasions realized that I forgot to snap the lids down on my free standing tubs. Found my snakes happy and snug inside their hides (after a full day before discovering my mistake). I guess I must be providing them exactly what they need in their tubs. :)

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Or you were simply lucky :)

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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Of course, because hunters look for snakes during the daytime ;)

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You sure do seem to know a lot!

Nothing personal, but the statements that you've made in this thread so far probably stem from nothing more than your own observations or assumptions...you seem to be treating them as fact. Do you have some kind of qualification or professional experience that we aren't aware of?

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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Or you were simply lucky :)

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Or they disproved this theory :)

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As soon as you give them an oppurtunity, they escape

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

You sure do seem to know a lot!

Nothing personal, but the statements that you've made in this thread so far probably stem from nothing more than your own observations or assumptions...you seem to be treating them as fact. Do you have some kind of qualification or professional experience that we aren't aware of?

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See post #36.

I mean it's just logic... hunters are experienced in finding places where BPs hide. And it would not make much sense to look for them at night.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

You sure do seem to know a lot!

Nothing personal, but the statements that you've made in this thread so far probably stem from nothing more than your own observations or assumptions...you seem to be treating them as fact. Do you have some kind of qualification or professional experience that we aren't aware of?

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No wait!

He knows a guy... :8: