Snakes on newspaper...

First off, let me say that I am relatively new to this hobby. What got me was the idea of keeping an exotic animal in a surrounding that is similar to the natural enviroment of that animal.

Now, when I see pictures of a beautiful 4 ft BP in a plastic tub, laid out with newspaper and with a plastic box as a hide, it just makes me feel uncomfortable. :confused: There is nothing natural at all about this...

I do know that the snake probably does not care, as long as the temperature and humudity is right, it gets well timed food and the tank/tub is big enough and cleaned in a timely manner. And I also agree that it would make sense for people who keep 50+ snakes because it is cheaper to use newspaper than for example coconut substrate... but why in the world do people who just keep a few BPs not try to have at least one natural part in the snake enclosure?

The only thing I'd keep in newspaper & plastic is fresh fish I picked up from the market and put into the fridge, not a beautiful pet... ;)

Sorry, just had to vent.

exactly for those reasons you said but i have 7 snakes a couple in tubs and some in tanks set up to be naturalistic

I use to feel some what like yourself. I had my bp in a beautiful AP cage decorated to look very natural, it was a great display case.
I switched to a rack system before I purchased anymore bps for several reasons.
1. That cage was very hard to clean and keep clean.
2. My bp spent 99.9% of his time in his hide and seem to care less about all the natural things I had in there for him.
3. If they are CB or CBB as most are then they have never known anything different then a tub and I would dare to guess that they feel most secure in a tub. BP's spend most of their time in tight dark quarters not out on display.

My biggest reason was keeping clean. Unless every time your bp urinates you completely remove all substrate then you never really know if you got it all. Where in a tub w/ newspaper ( I use unprinted type of paper ) you can pop the old out, clean, and pop in fresh.
I now have four bp's and the tub/rack system is the only way to go IMO.

If your bp has hides, water, a cage not to big for their size and good temps and humidity then you have all you need to make them happy, anything else is more to please yourself then them.

I use tubs because it is almost flawless in keeping perfect temps and humidity for me. I have perfect sheds without having to bump humidity - it's 55% all the time.

I use newspaper because I hated just spot cleaning with aspen. Every time they defecate, the paper is changed and it's truly clean.

To truly have a naturalistic enclosure for a ball python, you'd need to have a termite mound or deep underground burrows. All the aesthetics are for the keeper, not the snake.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

All the aesthetics are for the keeper, not the snake.

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I agree of course, the snake couldn't care less. I just wanted to know if I am alone with my personal feelings... I just prefer the natural look, and feel somewhat depressed seeing a snake in such an unnatural surrounding.

If you've kept any other snakes besides BP's, you will understand just how much BP's hide, and how difficult their temp, humidity, and secureness requirements are.

We have a beautiful orange corn snake that never uses his hide, he's active during the day, and we have him in a nice natural set up that's easy to fill his needs. He doesnt need high humidity, or high temps. He has a tree he likes to chill in, and he also likes to burrow through his substrate. He get's a lot of stimulation from being in a nice natural set up, and he's out for us to view him all the time. He's a great display snake and easy to take care of in a tank, whereas the BP's aren't.

Plus, like someone said earlier, it takes a lot of effort to keep those large cages clean.
Your BP will thrive in a nice tight space where the requirements are met. This is easily met in a tub, but can be made in a nice enclosure.

When designing an enclosure for a snake, you have to put their needs first, and our desires last. A tub is a great way to fullfill all of their needs simply, but tanks are a harder to get the hang of to fullfill those same needs. That's my theory behind tubs. ;)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Your BP will thrive in a nice tight space where the requirements are met.

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Well, the requirements (a law introduced in 1997) here in Germany are that the space needs to be at least 1.0 * 0.5 * 0.75 (length, depth, height) the size of the snake. So a 4 ft BP would need a tub with the dimensions of 4 ft * 2 ft * 3 ft... I don't know if they even produce plastic tubs that big ;)

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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Well, the requirements (a law introduced in 1997) here in Germany are that the space needs to be at least 1.0 * 0.5 * 0.75 (length, depth, height) the size of the snake. So a 4 ft BP would need a tub with the dimensions of 4 ft * 2 ft * 3 ft... I don't know if they even produce plastic tubs that big ;)

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I still think your not thinking about the BP's requirements. BP's live in burrows, tunnels, termite mounds. Underground 90% of the time. THEY require a tight space for their comfort. BP's like something touching them on all sides, this isn't a carpet python... Just because Germany says BP's require more room, doesn't mean it is beneficial or correct husbandry for the species.

I'm not bashing your dreams of a nice enclosure, you must understand the delicate mannerisms of BP's in particular. They are very easily stressed with large enclosures, if you meet their requirements of nice tight hides, thermoregulation, good ground cover for them to feel safe moving around, all the while providing perfect temps and humidity, then you very well could have a large nice natural enclosure.

My post was merely stating that we humans too often put our desires before the snakes NEEDS. Think about what any snake need first, and plan around that. ;)

I was just talking to my friend about this... I switched to newspaper, cause I had found 2 mites on my bp, and so far so good. NO MITES, & oh it's so much easier to clean the cage up. My bp has a natural background, a some fake plants, 2 hides, and climbing wood. he is in a glass cage.

But I understand that most of these ppl on here breed, & keep more than a few snakes... If I was to have more than the one, I would more than likely switch to a tub too.:gj:

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Originally Posted by reptile3

I was just talking to my friend about this... I switched to newspaper, cause I had found 2 mites on my bp, and so far so good. NO MITES, & oh it's so much easier to clean the cage up. My bp has a natural background, a some fake plants, 2 hides, and climbing wood. he is in a glass cage.

But I understand that most of these ppl on here breed, & keep more than a few snakes... If I was to have more than the one, I would more than likely switch to a tub too.:gj:

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I hope you are treating the enclosure with a mite killer like PAM, and not just wishing the mites or their eggs away ;)

Its all owner preference. I have 4 custom enclosures that are 4x2x1.5 that I use for my older females and I also use tubs for my males and babies. I use tubs for the babies bc they are cheap, easy to maintain humid/temp., and theyre easy to clean. I think for the big females and males they should have more room to move around so all my adult females will have the custom enclosures. Although I prefer the natural look... I use newspaper bc to me id rather know when they pee/crap so I can get it outta there and clean it rather than have some old urates chillen in the mulch/aspen for a couple weeks. As long as you meet the proper housing requirements I think all animals benefit from the extra space. The only issue is when you expand the cage size it becomes more challenging to meet requirements... To solve this you just have a whole room that set to the right temps/humidity so you dont have to worry about that :)

Connie... 2 tight hides act as the termite mounds... Inside a 4x2 enclosure its not hard to take up space with a big water dish and 2 hides(cat litter dishes)... throw in a big females and your not going to have a stressed snake. As I stated before meeting humidity/temperatures is far more important than tank size...

with that said you obviously wont find me housing a baby in a 4x2 cage hence the reason I also use tubs.

Yes, used the PAM!!! :gj:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I hope you are treating the enclosure with a mite killer like PAM, and not just wishing the mites or their eggs away ;)

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

Connie... 2 tight hides act as the termite mounds... Inside a 4x2 enclosure its not hard to take up space with a big water dish and 2 hides(cat litter dishes)... throw in a big females and your not going to have a stressed snake. As I stated before meeting humidity/temperatures is far more important than tank size...

with that said you obviously wont find me housing a baby in a 4x2 cage hence the reason I also use tubs.

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Josh, I know you and I have danced around this before. I have merely stated, again, meet the needs of the snake, the rest is just fringe benefits for us. You have obviously done this with yours, while providing a more stimulating environment with no harm to the snakes requirements.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I still think your not thinking about the BP's requirements. BP's live in burrows, tunnels, termite mounds. Underground 90% of the time. THEY require a tight space for their comfort. BP's like something touching them on all sides, this isn't a carpet python... Just because Germany says BP's require more room, doesn't mean it is beneficial or correct husbandry for the species.

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BPs need small hides for them feeling safe, that is true of course. But I also think that a snake needs a certain room to explore once they're out of their hide. Or are you trying to tell me that BPs in Ghana stay within 2 feet of their hide entrance? ;) I think that as long as you provide plenty of adequate hides, there is no such thing as a tub/tank that is too big.

Again, I know that snakes can feel great in a rather small tub laid out with newspaper and equipped with a good hide... the point of this thread was that I wanted to find out if people share my feelings in regard to the natural look & feel of the tank/tub.

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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Or are you trying to tell me that BPs in Ghana stay within 2 feet of their hide entrance? ;) I think that as long as you provide plenty of adequate hides, there is no such thing as a tub/tank that is too big.

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Where do you think BP's are most often found in the wild? In burrows. If you have the opportunity, I suggest picking up either VPI's book, or Kevin's the Complete ball python.

Again, I think the point of my posts has been missed. I will repost it for your benefit. ;)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

When designing an enclosure for a snake, you have to put their needs first, and our desires last. A tub is a great way to fullfill all of their needs simply, but tanks are a harder to get the hang of to fullfill those same needs. That's my theory behind tubs. ;)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I still think your not thinking about the BP's requirements.

I'm not bashing your dreams of a nice enclosure, you must understand the delicate mannerisms of BP's in particular. They are very easily stressed with large enclosures, if you meet their requirements of nice tight hides, thermoregulation, good ground cover for them to feel safe moving around, all the while providing perfect temps and humidity, then you very well could have a large nice natural enclosure.

My post was merely stating that we humans too often put our desires before the snakes NEEDS. Think about what any snake need first, and plan around that. ;)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I have merely stated, again, meet the needs of the snake, the rest is just fringe benefits for us. You have obviously done this with yours, while providing a more stimulating environment with no harm to the snakes requirements.

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Does this make any sense now? Put the snakes requirements first and foremost. Security is number one for BP's. Heat, humidity, and security. Those are the most important things we should be doing for our snakes. For BP's we often overlook how nervous it makes them to be in a large enclosure. Put their NEEDS before our desires.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Where do you think BP's are most often found in the wild? In burrows. If you have the opportunity, I suggest picking up either VPI's book, or Kevin's the Complete ball python.

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No worries, I've read Kevin's book and a lot more material about the topic. Of course BPs are often found there, they spend 90% of the time in their hides in nature... but what do you think do they do the other 10%? Sitting in front of their hide waiting for a mouse to pass by?

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Does this make any sense now? Put the snakes requirements first and foremost. Security is number one for BP's. Heat, humidity, and security. Those are the most important things we should be doing for our snakes. For BP's we often overlook how nervous it makes them to be in a large enclosure.

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It made sense even before you were so polite to repost your points. You are missing what I am saying: Security = Hides, large enclosure = no problem with hides, nature = large enclosure...

I prefer cypress because it absorbs like crazy. With newspaper and paper towels the urine would spread out over a large area and the snake might move right through it...ick.
The cypress (aspen is good also) keeps the mess well contained and away from the snake's skin until I can get in there and spot clean (every day!)

Hi Markus! Welcome to BP.net! :handshake

I'm one of those that keeps my BP in a tub with paper because it's just easier for me and she seems perfectly content in there. However, I completely understand what you're saying and look forward to the time when it's practical for me to have a few beautiful "naturalistic" displays for some snakes that are more display-friendly.

The way I see it...if you're able to provide the right temps and humidity and the snake seems to feel secure in its home (eats readily and not too stressed about being handled)...then the look (and even the size) of the enclosure is entirely up to the Keeper and should make you feel comfortable as well.

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Originally Posted by JLC

The way I see it...if you're able to provide the right temps and humidity and the snake seems to feel secure in its home (eats readily and not too stressed about being handled)...then the look (and even the size) of the enclosure is entirely up to the Keeper and should make you feel comfortable as well.

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I agree 100%, Judy :) As long as the snake feels good & healthy everything is allowed! I just wanted to ask if I'm alone with my personal views :)

There's others that do like the more natural looking enclosures. They require more cleaning, and if you set it up with several tight secure hides, and keep the temps and hunmidty right, then you're fine.
The other issue is, if your ball python is happy in that enclosure, then you've got a really nice tank to look at.. you probably won't see the snake hardly at all, as they stay in the hides... which makes them happy.
I use tubs, easier to clean, easier to keep temps and humidity proper, and less space taken up. As long as my snakes seem happy(i.e. they eat, shed, breed etc) then I'm happy with it.
I have a cornsnake too, and she usually ends up with the natural looking tank to roam around and look nice in.

I would love to have a nice big enclosure totally naturalistic and all but i know thats not what my balls call for which is why i have other species that do call for a more elaborate enclosure. I have red eye tree frogs with live plants, exc thats what i get to spend my creative time on doing.. and my beardeds enclosure but otherwise i like to keep the basics going for the balls. For my ease and their comfort. I was thinking about using aspen for the balls when i get my rack in but now i dont think im going to.. Just seems like newspaper is the easier way out all the way around.

Good luck with your animals. Perhaps consider getting a different kind of snake in addition to your ball to have that nice display tank your looking forward to using (just my .02 of course)

I personally like the idea of the active substrate for a natural set up to avoid the constant cleaning. I have read Vosjoli's book over and over and can't wait until we get the jungle carpet for our display. :D It's something I am really looking forward to, and I know it's going to look awesome.

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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

BPs need small hides for them feeling safe, that is true of course. But I also think that a snake needs a certain room to explore once they're out of their hide. Or are you trying to tell me that BPs in Ghana stay within 2 feet of their hide entrance? ;) I think that as long as you provide plenty of adequate hides, there is no such thing as a tub/tank that is too big.

Again, I know that snakes can feel great in a rather small tub laid out with newspaper and equipped with a good hide... the point of this thread was that I wanted to find out if people share my feelings in regard to the natural look & feel of the tank/tub.

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Hi Markus~
I have cages and racks. I got my cages from Rich (@ RBI) and they are specifically designed for herps; easy to maintain temps and humidity, solid walls on three sides, and plexiglass 'front doors'. I really like the idea of being able to see the snakes and just the look of the cages. I keep paper in all enclosures. That said, racks are a huge benefit to the keeper when we have more than 2 or 3 balls. One Helix can run a ton of them and the snakes needs are still being met; just not all of my needs!!
Hope this answers your question!