are my snakes *happy* or trying to mate?

i have a 5 year old and a 18 month old *BP*. ive heard that *BP* just *tolerate* other *BP*. well these 2 have plain ole BONDED! its touching :D they intertwine and *sleep* all cuddled up and so on. my question is, are they gay or just *snake sisters* ive had no eggs yet and i never did have either one sexed by a pro. im assuming they are both female. hey, as long as they are happy and healthy, im happy.. but i am curious thanks!:snake:

The snakes really should be separated. BP's do much better when they live alone. If by chance one of them is a male and one is a female you could end up with unwanted breeding. What would you do if you all of a sudden had eggs and no incubator? If you managed to keep the eggs alive how would you support the extra snakes that you now have? There are many reasons that BP's should live alone. Do what you can to get them separated into their own enclosures.

Why do you have such a large Bp housed with such a smaller one?

They aren't "cuddling." Snakes don't understand this term, and they don't do it. What you see as cuddling is them actually competeing... I would guess they are curled up together either over the hot spot or the cool spot? It is because they are both trying to get the best spot.

The snakes should be separated. If this continues, one will eventually win out over the other (most likely the oldest and biggest) and the other will suffer from not being able to get the best heat or best cool spot.

I agree, they are not cuddling - that's classic domination behavior. I'd even guess they follow each other around too? The dominant one following the the less dominant one to make sure that they don't get the perceived "best spot".

Ball pythons are not social animals, they only come together to breed, otherwise, they are not seeking each other out.

Two ball pythons housed together isn't a great idea for all the reasons already listed. As well two unsexed snakes is just asking for trouble with unplanned matings, possibly mating too young (if the smaller one is a young female and the larger one a mature male snake). Remember too, if one snake gets sick when housed communally, you've just doubled your vet bill and believe me herp vets cost enough without making that bill larger than it has to be.

For the snakes and for yourself, it's far easier in the long run to house them seperately. :)

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Originally Posted by Swmrguy11

The snakes really should be separated. BP's do much better when they live alone. If by chance one of them is a male and one is a female you could end up with unwanted breeding. What would you do if you all of a sudden had eggs and no incubator? If you managed to keep the eggs alive how would you support the extra snakes that you now have? There are many reasons that BP's should live alone. Do what you can to get them separated into their own enclosures.

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well typically you don't really need a incubator, if she or he has eggs you could leave the eggs with the mother and moniter them. pythons are able to raise heat levels in thier body:cool:

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Originally Posted by Royal_Rodents

well typically you don't really need a incubator, if she or he has eggs you could leave the eggs with the mother and moniter them. pythons are able to raise heat levels in thier body:cool:

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No they aren't - if they were, you wouldn't have to provide a heat source.

I have read alot of literature that says bp's can "raise their body temp above that of their surrounding area by twitching thier muscles". They will also return to the eggs after basking to transfer the heat. BP's can definitely incubate their own eggs, but we're better at it! :gj:

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Originally Posted by Pythonman

I have read alot of literature that says bp's can "raise their body temp above that of their surrounding area by twitching thier muscles". They will also return to the eggs after basking to transfer the heat. BP's can definitely incubate their own eggs, but we're better at it! :gj:

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Thats not true, everyone that i have talked to that has done Maternal breeding has had a 200% hatch rate, i think Rapture did it too. Im planing on doing ONLY maternal breeding, ball pythons are just fine incubating their own eggs.

Sorry for the rant, the whole maternal thing is a hugely debated thing.

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Originally Posted by Pythonman

I have read alot of literature that says bp's can "raise their body temp above that of their surrounding area by twitching thier muscles". They will also return to the eggs after basking to transfer the heat. BP's can definitely incubate their own eggs, but we're better at it! :gj:

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Just to let you know that the twitching does not actually increase the heat in the mother's coils. The mother actually has to leave to bask and come back to warm the eggs. She either coils tightly around the eggs or loosely to control the humidity.

If the eggs are left on a hot spot in the cage, they will die.

I agree, separate the BP's. It's best for them, and you want whats best for them right?

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Thats not true, everyone that i have talked to that has done Maternal breeding has had a 200% hatch rate, i think Rapture did it too. Im planing on doing ONLY maternal breeding, ball pythons are just fine incubating their own eggs.

Sorry for the rant, the whole maternal thing is a hugely debated thing.

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How do you have a 200% hatch rate?

Why are you choosing maternal incubation over artificial? My goal is to get my females eating as quickly as possible, with maternal incubation, they go another two months without eating - my priority is the health of all my animals, not just the eggs.

I'm not an expert and I don't claim to be but I'm pretty sure those who have written the books are pretty well informed. If pythons can reach a higher temperature than their surroundings then they are "producing" heat. I don't know about them being better at incubating than us and I agree in the hot spot they're dead...or what 200% hatch rate is...They definietly need a hot spot, but that doesn't mean that they can't generate heat by twitching their muscles, it's the same thing as when your teeth chatter or you shiver when you're cold. The book says they leave to bask and come back as well but thats a seperate issue from the twitching and raising their body temperature. I don't know, who cares. I don't suggest letting the females raise there eggs for 2 reasons, one is the fact that I want them eating asap, and the other is I woul like access to the eggs without fighting a female to make changes if something is wrong, heat humidity, whatever.

Twitching/shivering is your body's way of converting the chemical energy stored as fat or nutrients from your stomach into heat by using it. "Fat/calorie burning produces heat, one of the reasons you get hot when you do physical activity and eventually need to sweat. Just a little bio 101.

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Originally Posted by Pythonman

I have read alot of literature that says bp's can "raise their body temp above that of their surrounding area by twitching thier muscles". They will also return to the eggs after basking to transfer the heat. BP's can definitely incubate their own eggs, but we're better at it! :gj:

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Actually, there was a study done that determined neither ball nor Angolan pythons have the body mass to actually generate heat sufficient for incubation. I will dig it up & put a copy on our server for those who would like to see it.

Female ball pythons have been observed to leave their eggs & bask in order to thermoregulate. The Barkers also have a great section on this in their book, and recommend temperatures of 90 degrees for females left to maternally incubate.

I, too, don't understand how you can have a "200%" hatch rate, as was previously stated, but from what I've gleaned from other people's experience, maternal incubation can be hit-or-miss, and requires an attentive keeper to monitor environmental factors the whole way through.

We use artificial incubation exclusively, and hatch all of our viable eggs that way.

Just my $.02...

K~

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Originally Posted by Pythonman

Twitching/shivering is your body's way of converting the chemical energy stored as fat or nutrients from your stomach into heat by using it. "Fat/calorie burning produces heat, one of the reasons you get hot when you do physical activity and eventually need to sweat. Just a little bio 101.

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That's mammalian physiology, not reptilian. ;)

Actually, the larger python species (Burms, rocks, retics) have been shown to metabolically thermoregulate by twitching their muscles to raise body heat (accomplished through burning calories)...but smaller snakes just don't have the muscle mass to successfully accomplish this throughout the duration of incubation, making supplemental heat necessary.

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Originally Posted by KLG

Actually, the larger python species (Burms, rocks, retics) have been shown to metabolically thermoregulate by twitching their muscles to raise body heat (accomplished through burning calories)...but smaller snakes just don't have the muscle mass to successfully accomplish this throughout the duration of incubation, making supplemental heat necessary.

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Thank you Ms. Kara! :love:

I thought it's general chemisty, when calories are "burned", heat is given off (chemical energy to kinetic energy), it doesn't matter what's burning, fat, calories, gasoline, Eli Manning's throwing hand...KLG Please post it, I'd love to read it, maybe what I have is outdated. Just to clear it up, I wasn't saying that they create enough heat to incubate without heat or anything like that, just that I had read that they do twitch to help the incubation process which generates heat, not instead of basking and returing to the eggs.

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Originally Posted by KLG

Actually, the larger python species (Burms, rocks, retics) have been shown to metabolically thermoregulate by twitching their muscles to raise body heat (accomplished through burning calories)...but smaller snakes just don't have the muscle mass to successfully accomplish this throughout the duration of incubation, making supplemental heat necessary.

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It sounds like you're saying they do it, but they just don't do it enough to successfully incubate, in which case I have never disagreed with that. I was just saying that they can produce heat by twitching and do that while incubating, not that that is all they do to heat the eggs. Thats all. :please:

I was bringing up that fact from what I've read in the VPI's book, but I don't have it in front of me so I didn't include it as an exact quote, as there is always the small chance I read it wrong. Kara has said it better than I could anyways :)

Maybe if you carry the eggs in your pocket you'll get a 400% hatch rate... :confuzd:...

A 200% hatch rate would mean that you've hatched twice as many eggs as you had.
Somehow, unless you're implieing that if you let the mom incubate the eggs, every egg turns out twins somehow, I don't understand the numbers.
I've heard from several people maternally incubating without success. I know some people do it successfully, but I prefer to artificially incubate myself. I like to get mom eating as soon as possible, and I prefer controlling the temps and all a bit more precisely.

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Originally Posted by nathanledet

Maybe if you carry the eggs in your pocket you'll get a 400% hatch rate... :confuzd:...

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No thats 300% hatch rate :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

many people who allow the females to incubate their eggs have the same success rate as aritificial incubation. obviously females are great at managing their clutches but in captivity the keeper must regulate the temperature and humidity levels in the enclosure to allow the female to be successful.

personally im going to artificially incubate the eggs and am hoping for a 100%-310% hatch rate because i dont have big enough pockets for a 400% hatch rate!

oh ya and when housing bps they should be housed seperately.

everyone gave some good reasons so all im going to say is read a book!

I think the egg incubation thing has gone slightly off-topic (though it's an interesting topic in and of itself). To the OP: you've been given good information already by members of this site about what's going on with your BPs.

You love your pets, and so I think you'll be willing to do what needs to be done to keep them safe and healthy. A pre-mature breeding on your younger female (if you have one of each sex) could injure or kill her. If the sexes are reversed and the larger snake is a female and you do get a clutch of eggs, are you prepared to care for several new hatchlings months from now? Do you have space to keep them all separately when they hatch or were you planning to also house any possible babies with their parents (also not a good idea)? If you don't have the space, do you have a plan to find them all new homes with responsible keepers?

If you've been seeing locks between them, and more than just the dominating behavior, then you could be facing the questions above. I, like many others here, would suggest separating them.