Colony Collapse - Food Tainted

I am not sure this thread will really help anyone as what happened to me is nearly impossible to "see" ahead of time.

First the background...I have been breeding rats for over 10 years (both as show animals/pets and feeders). I keep not only "lab rats" great breeders and perfect feeders but also all sorts for fancy rats (blues, dumbos, harley, rex, etc.). About 5 years ago I started looking for a better food and hooked up with a feed supplier that custom made the food to what I wanted (similar to Muzuri and Tekland feeds). The benefit was I could but in large amounts at a great price...but still get an excellent high quality feed.

My last order of food was delivered on 12/15...I have about 300+ rats and was nearly out so all of them started the new supply. This is nothing new and like I said I have been using this feed for 5 years. Well the week of Xmas I went outside to clean cages and check on every one noticed 5 of my breeders were dead. They were older so I didn't think too much of it, next day 5 more were dead...ok now this was strange. Checked all the water lines, made sure everyone had food, checked everyone out so signs of infection they just seemed to die of old age. Over the next week half the colony had died...again no signs one day they were fine the next they were dead. Fast forward to today...I have 10 rats left (of 300!!!). After a lot of research and testing it was determined that the soybean meal (from Korea) was tainted with Formaldehyde. I have the food and drug admin involved but will pry never know what happened.

So long story short short is I am starting my colony over...I lost a lot of long time very sweet rats, some one of a kind colors and patterns and pets I have had forever (including my oldest a 4 year old :(). Since my food is custom made I cannot blame a manufacturer as tons of soybeans and other grains are imported these days.

Just thought I would pass on this sad note...and to say if you ever have a series of strange deaths to check the food.

OMG how sad. I am sooo sorry for your loss.

Oh no Sean! How gawd awful for you and what a waste of good rats and all those years of breeding. If there is anything I can do to help you with some foundation stock please just let me know.

Thank you for sharing this difficult experience so others can be aware of the possibility of this happening.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

If there is anything I can do to help you with some foundation stock please just let me know.

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Thanks Jo...I am still trying to sort it out. I got 30 new girls just a mixture (but lost all my "special" rats only one left is a male Rex). But that is a great idea if I could get a few from several people that would give me a great diversified blood lines. Next time I head your way I will take you up on your generous offer (or you make it to Indy).

Anyone else have a few females they could spare to a good cause? :)

If you're ever in Atlanta - you're welcome to as many females as I have available!

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Originally Posted by rabernet

If you're ever in Atlanta - you're welcome to as many females as I have available!

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Thanks Robin...I appreciate the offer.

I haven't been to Indy in way, way too many years but if you're heading this way, you just let me know and you're welcome to drop by and grab as many up as you need. So sorry this happened Sean, I know you had a lot of lines you were tinkering with and a lot of good work went down the tubes with the lose of your colony. :(

Oh yea...I should also mention that I had several of my snakes tested for formaldehyde poisoning. According to the vet not enough formaldehyde is passed via milk (it gets broken down) so the offspring didn't have high concentrations (like the breeders did) and then via the digestion in snakes even more is destoyed...so none of the snakes tested had any signs of formaldehyde in their systems.

I have also replaced all the food (for free via the manufacturer) and had it tested prior to starting to feed it.

So it looks like the worst is behind me but boy what a rough sad road.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

I know you had a lot of lines you were tinkering with and a lot of good work went down the tubes with the lose of your colony. :(

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Very true...but on a good note my one female blue dumbo that I worked so long to produce actually got adopted by my kids so she is OK as they feed her table foods so she ate very little of the tainted stuff.

This is so heartbreaking! I don't know how I would handle it since most if not all of my rats are awesome and I consider my pets. Im so sorry to read this.

You know I will give you some in a heart beat. If your ever by the Taylor show way we can mix some girls up for you. Get you back some R. Blues into your lines. Please don't hesistate to contact me!!

Who do you bring it in to for testing? How much does the testing cost? This sounds so much like the contaminated pet food from last year where peoples dogs and cats were all dying from renal failure due to contaminated feed from China. Why is one of the largest grain producing countries in the world importing grain from Asia?

Oh Sean, that is just awful! I have cut my collection way down as I am trying to switch most to frozen, but you are more than welcome to some. I do have some dumbo, rex & siamese/himi lines.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Who do you bring it in to for testing? How much does the testing cost? This sounds so much like the contaminated pet food from last year where peoples dogs and cats were all dying from renal failure due to contaminated feed from China. Why is one of the largest grain producing countries in the world importing grain from Asia?

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Purina foods is doing the testing...as my supplier is owned by them. I agree with you when they told me what is was I asked the same question. That is why the Food and Drug Admin is involved...I am still piecing this together. But if I had to guess the grain used was from one of those batches of bad grain from last year. I received the batch in Dec...which means it was pry made in Oct/Nov....so it is very possible the grain came in earlier.

The world may never know...or at least I may never know.

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Originally Posted by catawhat75

Oh Sean, that is just awful! I have cut my collection way down as I am trying to switch most to frozen, but you are more than welcome to some. I do have some dumbo, rex & siamese/himi lines.

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Thanks so much...I am starting to think a road trip in in order soon.

That sucks! :( Not only do you have to deal with the loss of the little guys but now you have to go back out and start all over. Plus the inconvenience of it.

Best of luck to ya. :salute:

thats a tough loss to simpathize for!

ive been in quite a few grain processing plants and lets just say they are some of the nastiest stinky dirty places ive been! the infestations are sickening to see and i still cant eat any kind of cereal due to these experiences! why would asian plants be any better is beyond me but i can say just think of what else is in all those grain based products!

Oh man.. that bites. It sounds like something that was definately not your fault.. I wish you luck in starting up your colony again.

where are you located? I have a huge pile of rat females from a successful breeding month. I could spare you a couple (they'll wean in a couple more weeks) if you're nearby enough not to have to ship.

Sean,

I have been breeding rats for a while I have a breeding colony of a bout 75. I feed Muzzri 6f just went and got two new bags a week or so ago. Walked in last night to 3 dead rats different ages, different sexes different ages, different tubs, called around and this thread came up. I came out this morning and 3 more dead. I am scrambling to get this under control I have moved them to a meal mix of my own but I fear the damage is done.

Any help would be hot.

Mazuri 6F? That's what we use, I just bought a fresh bag not 2 weeks ago.... I haven't had any sick rats... but now I'm worried. I know Purina own's mazuri, should we take it away until something more concrete is set? Like a plant number or manufacturing date?

I will be pulling any purina products tonight... I can't risk it.

I have place a call to the Purina home office and they are going to run some tests and get back to me before weeks end.

They said that soybean meal is one of the LabDiet 5012 and Murari 6f ingredients and Korea is one of their suppliers.

So things do not look good

I'd love to have some updates as this thread progresses. I too feed lab blocks,a different variety; however, I just bought a 50lb bag of the Mazuri 6F. I have yet to introduce it to them as I have been using this other generic brand. I just found out our local feed store carried the Mazuri so I bought a bag. Now, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to feed it to them. I wonder if any ratteries that use Mazuri are finding similar problems.

I too, have just shot off an email. I know we are all in different parts of the country. I will post when they contact me.

Wow, that is a huge loss and setback. I'm very sorry for all that happened.

How did the formaldehyde get into the soybeans? I'm no soybean expert, but isn't formaldehyde use to preserve dead things? I hope they weren't using it as a cheap preservative.

Its terrible since this is one of the things you can't plan for. My 1 female rat just dropped 11 babies, not sure who the father is so we will see. If you need any help with females I will gladly help out.

This Sucks guys...I am sorry for everyone. My blend is based on the 5013 but tweaked slightly. So though PMI was helpful in testing and such they have already hinted that since I don't use one of their commercial diets they really can't help me or confirm that the issue came from them...one of those once it is out of our control and Q.C. we don't know what happens to it type responses. Hopefully those of you that use "off the shelf" blends will get more concrete answers.

I would suggest that anyone feeding these diets either stop or closely watch their rats for any unexplained deaths till we get some confirmation either way.

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

I would suggest that anyone feeding these diets either stop or closely watch their rats for any unexplained deaths till we get some confirmation either way.

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I couldn't agree more..

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Any help would be hot.

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Ed...I feel for you and I don't really have any concrete ideas. What I can tell you is that according to my vet small amounts of Formaldehyde won't hurt them so it has to build up. If you caught it soon enough and change out their food (lots of fresh water, etc.) I would think that they would pass the rest and be OK...but I am not an expert just conjecture on what I was told.

Good Luck

Also, if anyone gets a chance, I know it's a long shot, but if you find the poison info on formalyhyde and post it... maybe catch some of the symptoms.

Apparently, Purina has had this problem before, I just read a thread on a pig farmer that lost some of his stock when he switched to a different feed by purina.

http://roots.blogs.com/grayrosecavie...ed_dying_.html

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

Ed...I feel for you and I don't really have any concrete ideas. What I can tell you is that according to my vet small amounts of Formaldehyde won't hurt them so it has to build up. If you caught it soon enough and change out their food (lots of fresh water, etc.) I would think that they would pass the rest and be OK...but I am not an expert just conjecture on what I was told.

Good Luck

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Well I have been feeding this shipment for over a week or so so I wounder if thats enough time.

thanks for the info sean.

Just for others using some other brand of feed, here is a pretty comprehensive list of ingredients of rat feeds.

http://www.rattie-express.com/Food_I...ts.htm#Sunseed

When I worked at pet stores Purina was one of the "garbage" food brands out there. With all this formaldehyde stuff, it definitely makes me want to stay FAR FAR away.

What I want to know is why formaldehyde was in there.

Does anyone know what the other Purina brands are? How many of these other foods use the same suppliers for their meal?

Formaldehyde is also pretty common in the construction industry where it is used in the manufacturing process for certain materials. Particle board for instance contains a lot of formaldehyde.

Mark

Sean,
Thanks for the very informative post, that has in turn appeared to have helped educate many people throughout the course of the thread. As a side note, I know that Monica and myself are a bit out of the way, but if you are ever in the area, give us a ring. Monica has been breeding Dumbos for about a year and a half now, and we have a huge supply of them if you would like some.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Does anyone know what the other Purina brands are? How many of these other foods use the same suppliers for their meal?


Mark

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Mazuri and LabDiet are made by Purina.

I'm curious if we can get a list together of all the members that use either Labdiet or Mazuri lab blocks. Perhaps, then we can see if any other colonies are being affected.

I use Becky's feed mix, without the blocks.

SOrry to hear about your losses. I too have lost a huge part of my 50-60 breeder rat colony, not by tainted food but by faulty water valves.

I just hope you guys can get it under control and Purina gets it figured out before it happens to any more.

Scary scary stuff. I am about out of lab blocks and I was planning on going to pick up more Mazuri this week. I think I will hold off and just give them the mix without the blocks.
On an off note Sean, my dumbo himis both just had a litter last week and my rex girl is due in another couple weeks. Let me know what you want out of them.
Same goes for you Jo, I am planning on holding a couple rexes for you. Just let me know if you want male, female or both.

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I'm curious if we can get a list together of all the members that use either Labdiet or Mazuri lab blocks. Perhaps, then we can see if any other colonies are being affected.

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I've used mainly dog food for the last couple of years. And while I occasionally get grief for it, I'm pretty happy I still use it. I still would like to switch to a real rodent block if it were cheap enough, but I'm glad I didn't make the jump to Mazuri yet.

Well an update of the good kind.

After calling every rat person I could get a hold of I think I got a hand on this now.
I got rid of their food and made my own for a week, I got a multi-vitamin immunity booster that all their water got and they all got Dark Chocolate to help boost their immune systems and help flush any poison out.

24 hours no more losses.

I toped out at 7 out of 75
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That is great news! I hope that it was just a bug, and not poisoned food.

I pulled Mazuri last night, no one was dead or sick, but I wasn't about to take any chances until Purina gets back with me.





edit: Just a side note for other readers, chocolate is okay as a small treat for rats, giving it as a treat is okay... just don't overdo it, as it may be toxic in large amounts... ;)
http://www.rmca.org/Articles/ratchoc.htm

If hooded females are of interest call me...I can hook you up with some...

Does anyone have any sort of proof that there is a problem with Purina's products, or are people just jumping to conclusions?

Lord Jackel said that he was feeding a custom blend that was "similar" to Purina's product.

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

Purina foods is doing the testing...as my supplier is owned by them. I agree with you when they told me what is was I asked the same question. That is why the Food and Drug Admin is involved...I am still piecing this together. But if I had to guess the grain used was from one of those batches of bad grain from last year. I received the batch in Dec...which means it was pry made in Oct/Nov....so it is very possible the grain came in earlier.

The world may never know...or at least I may never know.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Sean,

I have been breeding rats for a while I have a breeding colony of a bout 75. I feed Muzzri 6f just went and got two new bags a week or so ago. Walked in last night to 3 dead rats different ages, different sexes different ages, different tubs, called around and this thread came up. I came out this morning and 3 more dead. I am scrambling to get this under control I have moved them to a meal mix of my own but I fear the damage is done.

Any help would be hot.

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Well, two different products... both someway or another owned by Purina. I'd rather be safe than sorry.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I'd rather be safe than sorry.

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I can understand that, but it just seems like people are jumping to a lot of conclusions.

I have been feeding a couple hundred pounds a month (at least) of Mazuri 6f...and I haven't lost a rat yet...unless it was in a snake cage. ;)

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Originally Posted by Dr Owens

I can understand that, but it just seems like people are jumping to a lot of conclusions.

I have been feeding a couple hundred pounds a month (at least) of Mazuri 6f...and I haven't lost a rat yet...unless it was in a snake cage. ;)

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We go through 100-150 pounds of Mazuri 6F per week and so far have not experienced any problems or losses (outside of snake tubs :O). I have contacted my supplier, who in turn contacted Purina. Purina is saying that they have no knowledge of any problem with the feed in question. I will post an update if anything changes.

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I can understand that, but it just seems like people are jumping to a lot of conclusions.

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It's not that big of a jump. It seems that Purina is concerned about this as well, otherwise why would they be doing the testing? And it appears that it's their testing that found the cause. I'm glad they did, maybe they can nip it in the bud before it gets worse.

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Purina foods is doing the testing...as my supplier is owned by them. I agree with you when they told me what is was I asked the same question. That is why the Food and Drug Admin is involved...I am still piecing this together. But if I had to guess the grain used was from one of those batches of bad grain from last year. I received the batch in Dec...which means it was pry made in Oct/Nov....so it is very possible the grain came in earlier.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

It seems that Purina is concerned about this as well, otherwise why would they be doing the testing?

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Because they would be stupid to ignore a possible problem such as this. Of course they're concerned...Purina apparently owns the supplier who produced the contaminated food. Purina is doing the testing because they have the laboratory capability to actually do the testing...something a local mill doesn't even begin to have the resources to do. However, to say that all Purina products might be contaminated just because one small supplier (who is reportedly owned by Purina) produced a contaminated product in a mill that is small enough to produce product for an individual is a bit of a stretch. Nestle Purina is a huge company with many different mills located all over the country. The odds of one of the big Purina mills (which produce their main product lines) having overlooked a problem such as this is remote...however, it's not impossible. I just think that people should recognize the risk for what it is, and not over react.

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And it appears that it's their testing that found the cause.

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That may be the case, but was this fact definitively stated?

This statement was made:

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

After a lot of research and testing it was determined that the soybean meal (from Korea) was tainted with Formaldehyde.

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But I'm not aware that this testing was done by Purina. (However, I could have overlooked something.)


BTW...For the record, I don't work for Purina or anything, so I'm not trying to defend them. However, I have been around the feed and grain industry all of my life, so I know a little bit about how it works...and some of the concerns being expressed here don't appear to be substantiated by the evidence.

Purina did test the food according to the previous posts...:

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

...Fast forward to today...I have 10 rats left (of 300!!!). After a lot of research and testing it was determined that the soybean meal (from Korea) was tainted with Formaldehyde. I have the food and drug admin involved but will pry never know what happened...

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Who do you bring it in to for testing? How much does the testing cost? This sounds so much like the contaminated pet food from last year where peoples dogs and cats were all dying from renal failure due to contaminated feed from China. Why is one of the largest grain producing countries in the world importing grain from Asia?

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

Purina foods is doing the testing...as my supplier is owned by them. I agree with you when they told me what is was I asked the same question. That is why the Food and Drug Admin is involved...I am still piecing this together...

The world may never know...or at least I may never know...

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I don't know where we've overreacted anywhere. Pulling Mazuri only was ever stated at after Freakie Frog commented on the mysterious deaths in his colony.

He stated he had just recently opened bags of Mazuri 6F as well. I don't think it's far fetched to say he could have gotten the same batch of soy bean meal. Only him having it tested will confirm that it was the food causing deaths.

This isn't the first time Purina has had tainted feed. Look at the recalls on dog and cat food just months ago. I think riding on those curtails, it's not over-reacting to stop using any Mazuri or Purina feed until something firm has been stated by Purina or the FDA.

Caution is not over reacting. It's simply taking preventative measures to keep yourself from any risks.

Heres my two cents, Sean was having an issue with a Purina food, lost 300 rats. I get a new shipment of Purina food and in 24 hours 7 of mine die.

Now I can't afford to replace 75-100 rats right here a couple of months before I am expecting little snakes to feed. Not including the 80 a month I already feed. Plus the rats I sale.

I also can't afford to loose my snakes because I ignored something that any responsible breeder should pay attention to, and fed a poison rat to my 3000.00 female mojave.

It is also easy to say some one is over reacting when your on the other side of the story with no issues, not having to worry about how if all your breeder rats die how will you feed 20+adult ball pythons and an unknown number of hatchling at 2.50 a rat and still replace you 100 + 300 lost rats and time building you colony back.

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The odds of one of the big Purina mills (which produce their main product lines) having overlooked a problem such as this is remote...however, it's not impossible.

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And yet this year 600+ pets died from just such an issue. But not from 1 food brand but hundreds that had over looked just such an issue that was "remote". But we shouldn't over react right I mean it not like it has happened before....OOPPPs ..I mean you can't blame them or worry it was only hundreds of pets and hundreds of brands.

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I just think that people should recognize the risk for what it is, and not over react.

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Yes a risk like handing a gun to a child is a risk. Driving drunk is a risk. Swimming in shark infested waters is a risk. Risks are something that once made aware of, people tend to go out of their way to avoid. Saying I don't want to knowingly feed my rats a possibly contaminated food and letting others that might also benefit from my loss know of the risk is not over reacting its called being aware of my responsibility's as a rat breeder and doing what I can to ensure the well being of animals I have taken in to my care.