breeding the youngsters!!

Anyone else got 07's breeding yet?!?!

Tried my yellow belly, he doesn't seem to be interested in the female I have for him quite yet...

Sorry, I ment 07 females!! I have 2 locked up right now!! Little fatties they are...:banana:

My 07 het pied male is going wild with my 2 girls. I don't have any 07 girls but then again I'd be afraid to breed any 07 females.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Sorry, I ment 07 females!! I have 2 locked up right now!! Little fatties they are...:banana:

---

You must be joking? :confused: You have 07 females that are large enogh to breed :O.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joepythons

You must be joking? :confused: You have 07 females that are large enogh to breed :O.

---

Yes, Only 2 hit the mark sofar though. Why am I joking?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Yes, Only 2 hit the mark sofar though. Why am I joking?

---

You have 07 females that are in the 1200+ gram range(the norm for suggested breeding weights).What type of steroids are they eating :8:

I thought htey had to be at least two years and that big time weight too.. I couldnt imagine breeding Cameron, theres no way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joepythons

You have 07 females that are in the 1200+ gram range(the norm for suggested breeding weights).What type of steroids are they eating :8:

---

The type Roger Clemen's and the homerun king took undecetable. LOL

I want to see pictures

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Emilio

The type Roger Clemen's and the homerun king took undecetable. LOL

---

O ok :rofl::rofl:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Yes, Only 2 hit the mark sofar though. Why am I joking?

---

Jas u da man!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joepythons

You have 07 females that are in the 1200+ gram range(the norm for suggested breeding weights).What type of steroids are they eating :8:

---

I feed My stuff! Here is a 13 month old female.. ON EGGS!


http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...iedEggs001.jpg

I definitely believe it! Early 07s could easily be 1000 grams plus right now, will every snake grow at that kind of rate...likely not... but I Jas obviously knows what he's doing.

Rock on Bro! Good luck!

Jason

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JASBALLS

I feed My stuff! Here is a 13 month old female.. ON EGGS!


http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...iedEggs001.jpg

---

Hmm we all need to feed your rodents to our snakes :8:

they say in the wild they find gravid females as small as 700 grams, so who knows

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chaos

they say in the wild they find gravid females as small as 700 grams, so who knows

---

Well, I know I bred her and the 07's that are breeding now..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Well, I know I bred her and the 07's that are breeding now..

---

Jas, have you had any issues breeding under the "recommended" weight/age?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enve

Jas, have you had any issues breeding under the "recommended" weight/age?

---

just smaller amount of eggs. Females seem to pick back up on food faster then the big girls.. and the babies seem to always take after mom.. (the females breeding now are from a young first clutch mom)!!

From what I've been told and have seen most breeders will do the 2 years old and 1200+ grams before even thinking of putting that female in to breeding. It's quite dangerous when you over feed a young snake like that and then highly dangerous for that snake to be breeding at that age. It's known that young snakes like that do hold a high rick of becoming egg bound and or dieing. Why not just hold those girls back for another year or two? Why put their lives in danger? Just a bit to risky in my eyes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lillyorchid

From what I've been told and have seen most breeders will do the 2 years old and 1200+ grams before even thinking of putting that female in to breeding. It's quite dangerous when you over feed a young snake like that and then highly dangerous for that snake to be breeding at that age. It's known that young snakes like that do hold a high rick of becoming egg bound and or dieing. Why not just hold those girls back for another year or two? Why put their lives in danger? Just a bit to risky in my eyes.

---

It works for him, I give him kudos for having the balls to try it and see what works for him. Just from reading Jas' posts I can tell he must be deeply in tune to each and every one of his animals, and I'm sure if he deemed it unsafe to breed a particular animal he wouldn't. I really think we all need to step back before jumping all over him about his breeding practices.

Isn't it also true that if a female wasn't ready or mature enough to reproduce she wouldn't even develop follicles/eggs, or just plain slug out. I understand there could always be a threat of a small female becoming egg bound...but a BIG overweight female could become egg bound just the same.

Do what works! It is one thing to read about doing something...it is another to have first hand experience doing so.

Rock on John!

Jason

The boys, sure. Not so much on the girls, but there are plenty of those here anyway, so no need to gung-ho them.

Just like anything else within the realm of herpetoculture, understanding one's snakes and their respective boundaries is a HUGE part of keeping them. It requires daily interaction & having a feel for what an animal can & cannot do at any particular point in its life, whether it is eating a huge meal, breeding, moving to a bigger enclosure, etc.

It's all about building experience! What is it going to take each of us to get from Point A (starting out @ whatever point) to Point B (more experienced)? And at what cost?

The welfare & well being of our animals is paramount...after that, it's up to us to understand so the rest can fall into place.

Just my $.02.

P.S. I live with the master of unorthodox...but not unorthodox at the expense of an animal's best interests. It's all relative.

Beautifully said, Kara!! (As usual!! :love: )

I'd like to add this note to this thread:

This forum is primarly about helping those new to the hobby to learn how to keep and care for their animals...and once they get comfortable with that...maybe they can consider breeding and learn the basics of that here as well.

While we all know there are many different ways of keeping these beautiful animals, what we try most to impart here are the methods that are the simplest and most proven methods to have a successful experience. Every choice we make carries risks....our job is to minimize those risks as best we can. The more we personally know from our own experiences, the more we can step outside that box with minimal risks.

SO...for the new person just wanting to learn and understand how to breed their snakes....please, please don't point them to this thread. While John's methods are fascinating to discuss, they are NOT the norm, and they carry much higher risks for the uninitiated than the more standard methods of breeding we tend to endorse.

I would liken' John's thread here to the professional stunt men who make fun shows for us to watch on TV. "Don't try this at home...we are highly trained professionals and know what we're doing....you'd likely get your head ripped off if you tried it!" :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KLG

The boys, sure. Not so much on the girls, but there are plenty of those here anyway, so no need to gung-ho them.

Just like anything else within the realm of herpetoculture, understanding one's snakes and their respective boundaries is a HUGE part of keeping them. It requires daily interaction & having a feel for what an animal can & cannot do at any particular point in its life, whether it is eating a huge meal, breeding, moving to a bigger enclosure, etc.

It's all about building experience! What is it going to take each of us to get from Point A (starting out @ whatever point) to Point B (more experienced)? And at what cost?

The welfare & well being of our animals is paramount...after that, it's up to us to understand so the rest can fall into place.

Just my $.02.

P.S. I live with the master of unorthodox...but not unorthodox at the expense of an animal's best interests. It's all relative.

---

Really I am leaving after this post.. LOL! Kara, you live with the master of unorthodox? I mainly attend the forum of the King himself RDR. Yet both the master and King do things different then The Queen (Tracy).. These three Remarkable breeders do things different. Why cant I? All my stuff is in Top notch health, They feed, they eat, they breed.. My wife even baths them? (crazy lady lol).. I guess my question is, Do I have to have 30 years of breeding, 10,000 snakes, And write a book before I can post what works for me? No Offence Kara, I love ya!!

My poor little bitty 06 girl lol. Jas, will you let me in on your secret?

I hope you stick around Jas...You know I love you brother and I know exactly what your saying...Keep on doing what your doing brother...I know I will -
BT

I'm not trying to start an argument as this is a serious question... What is your reasoning for breeding them so young? I dont disagree that it works and can be done safely... I am just curious as to why you choose to do so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoshJP7

I'm not trying to start an argument as this is a serious question... What is your reasoning for breeding them so young? I dont disagree that it works and can be done safely... I am just curious as to why you choose to do so.

---

If you don't disagree that it works and can be done safely - Then why do you choose to not do it? IMO - You are looking for an argument -
BT

I love you Jas!!! One day, I wanna meet up with you and pick your brain, dude. 07 girls breeding...:bow::bow::bow::bow:

Congrats man:gj:

I think what Judy is trying to say is that you have to learn what you're doing first before you can start experimenting. There are several right ways of doing things, just as there are several wrong ways and what works well for one may not work at all for another.

Some of the best teachers on how to take care of these animals are the animals themselves. But before they can teach you how best to care for them, you have to learn how to understand what they are saying and this can take a long time. Going slowly and proceeding with caution while keeping your eyes and mind open are much safer ways for the novice. You have to learn to crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run.

Eventually you'll find out what works for you, then you can start experimenting to find out what works even better.

However, not EVEYRONE here is a novice, and unless you hear some differing viewpoints and techniques, how can you know to try them yourself? I think that this is where the real value of open discussions on these forums are.

One of the reasons I like this forum is because it seems that most people here tend to be more tolerant and open minded. There are already plenty of forums where there are a few experts whose word is law and if you don't do things the way they think it should be done you're obviously a horrible person who shouldn't own snakes ***cough cough kingsnake cough cough*** I would really hate to see that happen here just because someone has opinions or experiences that are different from 'the norm'

Mark

Thats a nice post Mark...but from im sittin im not seeing any of open minded tolerance thing your talking about...

i got asked to come over and get active on this board by some friends..and Ive never seen such a militant bunch on any forum before...

if anything is different than what the barkers or kevin wrote about then you basically get called an idiot or told you dont know what your doing...then more flames....someone says hey do what works for you ...a few more flames...moderator...then everyone plays nice again...

I cant totally understand why john is wanting to leave..

I agree with mark 100% ....... people prove that they can do things where others have failed *in the 1700's you were crazy if you said man could build a machine to fly.... jump to 2007 and no one thinks twice about getting on the net and booking a flight* *20 years ago the buffalo was almost extinct and now we eat buffalo burgers everyday*

It only takes one man and one moment to make history and show that what we thought that we have known our whole lives wasn’t as exact as we once thought.


just remember when your kids ask there are only 8 planets now not 9 ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkS

However, not EVEYRONE here is a novice, and unless you hear some differing viewpoints and techniques, how can you know to try them yourself? I think that this is where the real value of open discussions on these forums are.

Mark

---

This is true, Mark...and it's why I don't mind discussions like this. I just wanted to point out that given the nature of THIS particular site, we should be careful not to hold these sorts of ideas up as "THE NEW WAY" of doing things....but rather an option for more advanced keepers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gib

Thats a nice post Mark...but from im sittin im not seeing any of open minded tolerance thing your talking about...

i got asked to come over and get active on this board by some friends..and Ive never seen such a militant bunch on any forum before...

if anything is different than what the barkers or kevin wrote about then you basically get called an idiot or told you dont know what your doing...then more flames....someone says hey do what works for you ...a few more flames...moderator...then everyone plays nice again...

I cant totally understand why john is wanting to leave..

---

Gib...we've certainly had our fair share of threads where a few folks take a hard stand on their opinion and then get into "last word" boxing matches where the primary instigators think whoever yells the loudest and gets the last word in wins or something. It's just going to happen when you have large groups of virtual strangers all trying to discuss something at the same time. And it happens because we DO strive to allow as many different opinions and ideas as possible. If we were truly as militant as you try to make us out to be, then we'd be locking down threads left and right and never allowing such discussions to continue because someone might get an idea that doesn't match the "status quo."

I hope you don't let the actions of a few inevitable hotheads color your opinion of the entire site. The admins and the mod-staff of this site make NO money and get NO compensation whatsoever for the work they do here. And yet we work as hard as humanly possible to make sure everyone is treated as fairly as possible and the beginner keepers have a place to come and learn how to care for their animals and share their questions, their successes, their worries and their pride and pictures of thriving animals.

And why don't you ask John about why he's deciding to not participate for awhile? I think you'll find it has absolutely nothing to do with what you've implied.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Really I am leaving after this post.. LOL! Kara, you live with the master of unorthodox? I mainly attend the forum of the King himself RDR. Yet both the master and King do things different then The Queen (Tracy).. These three Remarkable breeders do things different. Why cant I? All my stuff is in Top notch health, They feed, they eat, they breed.. My wife even baths them? (crazy lady lol).. I guess my question is, Do I have to have 30 years of breeding, 10,000 snakes, And write a book before I can post what works for me? No Offence Kara, I love ya!!

---

LOL...I think you completely missed my point John, which was, "if you understand what falls within the parameters of what is best for your animals, use your judgement!" (perhaps I should stick to the 'in a nutshell' replies from here on out?!?!?!) It works for us, so why not other people as well? This is all a big learning experience, and there is no ONE right way to breed snakes.

I think we're saying the same thing, just approaching it from different directions. I wasn't questioning your approach...just adding perspective of my own. Quite frankly I'm a little surprised you thought I was saying otherwise...your results speak for themselves, and I can't see where I've questioned your methods anywhere along the way. To each his or her own!

Just to clarify!

K~

not the moderators i was referring about ;)

and as far as why john is leaving...I talk to him from time to time..His reasons are leaving are actually none of my business.. so Ill just leave that one be

I should say, don't let the few loudmouths speak for the majority...
many times, the differing opinions will walk away from such hot topics, because the screaming few are drowning out what little they do put in...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 771subliminal

just remember when your kids ask there are only 8 planets now not 9 ;)

---

Yea pluto is a double moon.

and hey what works for you works for you i dont get why people have to bash all the time. someone is sharing an experiance they had, even when you know they know what they are doing. its ludicrous if you ask me. we all had to start some where or experiment with something diffrent.


GREAT JOB JAS!!!!!

Because conventional wisdom is the root of all evil, but a great many sheep would be lost without the Shepard , and in closing don't hate the player hate the game.:)


Chuck

I think if somehthing is working for someone then go for it. Why not try something new? Is it safe or unsafe for the animals. For every ten people that say its safe there will always be fifty that says its not. For every ten that say its not safe there will be fifty that say it is. I dont think someone new to breeding should try breeding small or young animals. Not because its right or wrong. Just because they should learn the basics first then go from there. Get to know their animals and all that. I dont know jass/John, but from what ive seen he isnt some new guy that just bought a pair of balls from the local pet shop. He knows his animals what they can and cant do. Also he is willing and able to deal with whatever the outcome is, be it good or bad. Will I be trying to breed any young females no. Why? Thats just not what works for me. For me if its not broke dont mess with it. Like something said in an earlier post. The hobbie didnt get where it is today by not trying new things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gib

Thats a nice post Mark...but from im sittin im not seeing any of open minded tolerance thing your talking about...

i got asked to come over and get active on this board by some friends..and Ive never seen such a militant bunch on any forum before...

---

I understand what you're saying Gib, and you're going to get disagreement fairly often, I get it and expect it because after all not everyone is as intelligent as I am... :D but at least you have a chance to speak your opinion and not have your posts pulled or your butt banned merely for having a differing opinion. On that other forum I had more posts pulled then were allowed to stand despite the fact that I posted nothing contrary to the TOS, it got to be so ridiculous that I finally had enough and told the moderators exactly what I thought of them..... After which of course I received a permanent ban.... Oh well.... :confuzd:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JLC

Gib...we've certainly had our fair share of threads where a few folks take a hard stand on their opinion and then get into "last word" boxing matches where the primary instigators think whoever yells the loudest and gets the last word in wins or something. It's just going to happen when you have large groups of virtual strangers all trying to discuss something at the same time. And it happens because we DO strive to allow as many different opinions and ideas as possible. If we were truly as militant as you try to make us out to be, then we'd be locking down threads left and right and never allowing such discussions to continue because someone might get an idea that doesn't match the "status quo."

---

I appreciate you're NOT locking down threads just because of a few shouting matches, though it has happened from time to time and it saddens me when it does happen because I think there are few things worse then censorship. However, I understand that some is inevitable when certain lines are crossed. However, I do make a note of it whenever I see it happen. Remember, I'm keeping an eye on you as much as you're keeping an eye on me. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JLC

I hope you don't let the actions of a few inevitable hotheads color your opinion of the entire site. The admins and the mod-staff of this site make NO money and get NO compensation whatsoever for the work they do here. And yet we work as hard as humanly possible to make sure everyone is treated as fairly as possible and the beginner keepers have a place to come and learn how to care for their animals and share their questions, their successes, their worries and their pride and pictures of thriving animals.

---

And I appreciate it... Thank you...

I don't breed my 07s.. geez.. mine are so far from big enough it's not even funny. I can't get them to grow big enough in one year.

I'm not saying he shouldn't though. The female looks big enough, and looks really healthy, and obviously had a nice clutch. He's doing things differently than I choose to do them, which to me isn't right or wrong, just different.

The OP is a experianced keeper, and has gorgeous animals. Why should he be bashed for that? I understand the point too of saying "This is an experianced keeper breeding his 07s, and if you are new to ball pythons, you probably shouldn't try it yourself." It's akin to saying that a experianced keeper can handle a hot, but that a new person should not.

In any group of people, you tend to end up with a few people who are quick to jump, and others that aren't. There's also people who type something totally MEANING to say one thing, but it gets taken another due to typed word vs spoken. This is one of the friendliest sites I visit, and well-modded for threads getting out of hand. It doesn't seem militant to me.

Anyway, kudos on the eggs! I want to know more about what hatches! It's a fabulous opportunity to see if younger females throw more males, more smalls, more large females, more morphs? Learning is good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Sorry, I ment 07 females!! I have 2 locked up right now!! Little fatties they are...:banana:

---

wait your breeding females that were born in 07 to other males?

Yea, congrats- I have a girl that was born in 1/06 thats still 600g away from being able to 'safely breed'- and it doesnt help that she now hasnt ate in 4 months.. Starting to get very worried.. but anyway, even when she was feeding weekly for me it was like she just took it in and let it out- shes growing so slow! Then you have my 6 month old pastel male- already 500g!! Genetics are amazing, how differnt they can be..

But anyway- congrats on the breeding :D

thats Amazing!

Congratulations, Jas!

I'm not writing to start an argument, or argue against what anyone else has written; I just want to express my opinion, and will try to do so in the least argumentative manner possible.

There needs to be a differentiation between the traditional "1500g and 1.5+ years for females, 1 year and 600+g for males" rule and the more innovative ideas and practices...and not because it's either better or worse to breed young or follow the norm, and not because it's better or worse to feed rats or mice, and not because it's better to keep them on aspen or newspaper, or any of those trivial things which really if done right don't have any long term negative effects on the animals...but because of the keepers. We as the keepers have an ultimate responsibility to our animals--we are responsible for them and their health and happiness.

As responsible keepers, it is important to understand that what works for an experienced, knowledgeable keeper who is in-tune with his or her animals and has things worked down to a fine science and who can accomplish incredible things with their animals which, for everyone else, seems fantastical, impossible, and yes, 'bad' as referring to the general 'rules' of breeding, may not work well or at all for a less knowledgeable or experienced keeper. It is the responsibility of the individual keeper to understand that and react accordingly based upon their individual knowledge, experiences, and their animals.

Not every 07 male will breed, just like not every 600g male will breed, and not every 07 female will breed--just like sometimes, a 1400g girl will refuse to breed! The thing is that our animals, snakes, are extremely variable, just like we are. As many morphs as there are perhaps it's time for people to start focusing on the less noticed variations--things more important than color, tone, shade, and pattern.

It's important to recognize that while not everyone agrees with it, what those outside of the norm do may seem like hearesy in the "bible" of our so commonly preached norms, it works for them. If it works for them, and their animals are obviously healthy and thriving and being provided for fantastically, and if we haven't even tried it ourselves for first-hand opinions...who are we to judge?

We haven't personally seen his feeding habits. Yes, it would be very unhealthy to feed a 2000g snake a 300g rat every five days to fatten it up, but I seriously doubt this is the case. I don't think that feeding a very small prey item every 4-5 days would be unhealthy; yes it would be a lot of calorific intake but as long as temps, humididy, etc. are spot on, and the keeper knows what to look for to make sure the animal's not becoming obese, it would actually be a very good way to make the animal grow quickly and gain weight quickly, and at a very young age like that the snakes can and do double their weight in a month.

The reason I say such frequent feeds would actually be beneficiary; the animal would not have time between feedings to completely shut down its digestive system, thus accounting for far less loss of calories and nutritional value in the food. And feeding small items frequently would make sure the snake doesn't have the strain or waste---or obesity problems---that feeding a larger item might cause. Yes, you would have to watch the animal very closely and know what you're doing, but in theory it sounds very possible and not dentrimental to the animal's health.

So much of the arguments on this website--and others, in the herp subculture, are based upon opinions and long-held views. Perhaps someone who came up with the 600g rule for males just happened to have males who wouldn't breed young, or perhaps they weren't doing something right. Perhaps the animals had been mis-sexed, and their perfectly healthy 1500g "girls" were actually males! That's the problem with listening to old rules and holding them as cement and absolutely right; because in nature nothing is set like that. In nature there aren't humans to prevent 700g girls from breeding, or to prevent 200g boys from breeding. Nothing in nature says it's impossible, and nothing I have seen from anyone on this site says it's impossible!!

The most important thing is to look at the animals and let them decide whether or not they are ready to breed, or eat, or anything. The animals won't breed if they aren't ready, or they'll slug out. Period. And if a keeper can safely get the animals to do so without causing them any harm, then kudos to them! More power to them!! And though not everyone would be comfortable trying it themselves, why should these people who have never even tried it bash those who do? They have no proof that it's bad to do so, having never tried it, and obviously it works well for Jas. Every picture I have seen of one of Jas' snakes indicates to me that his animals are healthy, strong, well hydrated and well taken care of.

Breeding young isn't for everybody. Just like feeding mice isn't, or keeping on newspaper, or initiating WC animals into captivity. However, that does not mean his practices are inherently wrong just because you or I aren't comfortable doing so or because the normal rules don't agree.

However I do agree that his practices, while safe and well-executed and obviously effective, are not for inexperienced keepers or even for experienced keepers who are breeding for the first time. I'm sure that when he first bred, both were in the "right" range in weight and age for breeding...however through experimentation and obvious success, he has established that it's entirely possible and not detrimental to do so. Why is doing something differently, if effective and unharmful, "wrong"?

I don't think it is. I admire him for how well he knows his animals and how in tune he is to them; he is obviously a very innovative person, and for that I commend him! I don't know if I'd try it with females at that age, but he's having success and she looks very healthy...how can I argue with results? How can anyone argue with results like that?

Like I said...not trying to cause an argument, just put forth my $.02. I like everybody on this site and feel personally connected to everyone, even though I don't always say much...I know I'm probably not well known and this post will likely be ignored mostly, but I've been lurking on a daily basis for a long time, and reading threads like this...I've seen a lot of what happened in this thread, it's just ususally less...extreme than this.

I'm actually a little hesitant to post this because I really, truly don't want to start another fight; however, I do feel that Jas needs a little support.

In any case...I conclude with: Congratulations Jas!!! I wish you much luck with those eggs--and those 07 studs of yours--and look forward to seeing what hatches! What did you breed her to, anyways? :P Yeah, I saw you didn't mention what kinda babies there'll be! I just hope you'll write a book and let us in on your secrets!! *poke*


EDIT: @__@ Holy cow that was longer than I thought!! >.>; Sorry guys..! (and gals! XD)

Awesome Jas!

I'm curious - what are the girls? And who you hooking them up with?

I need me some iddy biddy females snakes to breed.
Hopfully one I can get 3 maybe 4 eggs with a possibility of a lil egg boundness.
Can't wait to try it !!!!!!

Look. Harold is showing an example of why people leave sites. *shakes head*
Great post, Seneschal. That's kind of what I was trying to say, but I'm not very good with words.

I agree, great post! I bet Jas is breeding those little mojo's. How many did you make, like 50???:8:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Harold

I need me some iddy biddy females snakes to breed.
Hopfully one I can get 3 maybe 4 eggs with a possibility of a lil egg boundness.
Can't wait to try it !!!!!!

---

Now this is stuff we DONT need here :mad:.Did your mother have any kids that lived? :rolleyes: